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05-02-2011, 11:08 AM
  #26
BluejacketNut
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
RJ Umberger might have the gritty characteristics and the defensive ability you look for in a 3rd line center, but how do you put a guy who almost hit 60 points on the 3rd line? I would call him a 2nd liner, and I'd much rather have him over Hartnell any day of the week.

About the original post, even though I would like RJ to be re-signed, there is a glut of top six forwards and prospects coming up. Ideally you move some of your top forwards for defensive help although I'm not holding my breath. There will be more clarity later in the year.
Depth

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05-02-2011, 11:12 AM
  #27
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
RJ Umberger might have the gritty characteristics and the defensive ability you look for in a 3rd line center, but how do you put a guy who almost hit 60 points on the 3rd line? I would call him a 2nd liner, and I'd much rather have him over Hartnell any day of the week.

About the original post, even though I would like RJ to be re-signed, there is a glut of top six forwards and prospects coming up. Ideally you move some of your top forwards for defensive help although I'm not holding my breath. There will be more clarity later in the year.
He has so many points because he play in the first PP and a lot of time with good player. His goals are the most thanks to his work in the fron of the net not combinations. But his gritty is awesome and his play in the net is really excelent. Plus he is awesome player for PO. Besides i do not think he is a clasicall third line player as for example Pahlsson but a player for the third scoring line what is defference. IMo Umby is uncoverable for us.


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05-02-2011, 11:45 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Burrows is not a player for the first line and he played with Sedins there.
Randomly throwing out names doesn't speak to RJ as an individual. It's a dart board approach to trying to prove whatever it is you are trying to prove.

RJ is a top six NHL player in this league on most teams. Throwing our Burrows name, which I find silly, doesn't speak to RJ.

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05-02-2011, 11:47 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
Depth
That would be a lot of depth.

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05-02-2011, 11:47 AM
  #30
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Randomly throwing out names doesn't speak to RJ as an individual. It's a dart board approach to trying to prove whatever it is you are trying to prove.

RJ is a top six NHL player in this league on most teams. Throwing our Burrows name, which I find silly, doesn't speak to RJ.
I only wanted to show some examples I do not say all as i want.

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05-02-2011, 11:50 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I only wanted to show some examples I do not say all as i want.
I know there are examples all over the league of players playing above their ability. I don't need you to illustrate that and it does nothing to strengthen your case. RJ does not fit into the mold.

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05-02-2011, 11:57 AM
  #32
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
I know there are examples all over the league of players playing above their ability. I don't need you to illustrate that and it does nothing to strengthen your case. RJ does not fit into the mold.
I do not think it. I think thypology when for example Burrows style is good for Sedins /when we say about this case/. Or Holmstrom style for Dacjuk and Zetterberg.

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05-02-2011, 12:05 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I do not think it. I think thypology when for example Burrows style is good for Sedins /when we say about this case/. Or Holmstrom style for Dacjuk and Zetterberg.
Apples/Oranges.

I wish RJ was playing higher up with the likes of the players you listed. Any one of those players (Sedin's, Zetterberg, Datsyuk), I'd probably rather have then Nash.

Instead RJ plays on the second line, mostly, with the likes of Vermette... /yawn

Good comparison to make your case... :p

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05-02-2011, 12:06 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Apples/Oranges.

I wish RJ was playing higher up with the likes of the players you listed.
I think we do not understand. I say about one and you about other. So I try to recap.
IMo Umby is the player for the third-scoring/not checking/- line or maximum the second. But his ability in the net are good for our first line with Nash. it does not mean he is the first line player. Similar as Holmstrom work in the net is good for Dacjuk and Zetterberg or Burrows hard play for Sedin twins. And that is why I think he could play with Nash and a center could be Brassard.

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05-02-2011, 12:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I think we do not understand.
Bullocks. I understand you completely.

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IMo Umby is the player for the third-scoring/not checking/- line or maximum the second.
Full circle. I asked if that silliness was going to end. Obviously it isn't. Kind of funny that you listed second, when I've never said that RJ was a top line player.

The rest of your comparisons are non nonsensical to the RJ situation.

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05-02-2011, 12:17 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
Bullocks. I understand you completely.
IMO not /according your answers/.

Quote:
Full circle. I asked if that silliness was going to end. Obviously it isn't. Kind of funny that you listed second, when I've never said that RJ was a top line player.

The rest of your comparisons are non nonsensical to the RJ situation.
TOP 6. IMO it is a player for the first line too.

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05-02-2011, 12:20 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
I think we do not understand. I say about one and you about other. So I try to recap.
IMo Umby is the player for the third-scoring/not checking/- line or maximum the second. But his ability in the net are good for our first line with Nash. it does not mean he is the first line player. Similar as Holmstrom work in the net is good for Dacjuk and Zetterberg or Burrows hard play for Sedin twins. And that is why I think he could play with Nash and a center could be Brassard.
Hypotethically, even if Umberger is on the 3rd line and giving CBJ 3 scoring lines, 1) Is Pahlsson going to be moved to the 4th line 2) where is all this top six offense going to come from? Don't say Johansen!

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05-02-2011, 12:26 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Hypotethically, even if Umberger is on the 3rd line and giving CBJ 3 scoring lines, 1) Is Pahlsson going to be moved to the 4th line 2) where is all this top six offense going to come from? Don't say Johansen!
1. Pahlsson would be probably traded.
2. /if you think a center/ If not Johansen to the third scoring line so I do not know maybe Umby, maybe Mackenzie, maybe Wilson, maybe trade. Because we had wings.

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05-02-2011, 12:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
Depth
there are probably less than 5 teams with that kind of depth...

we all know that stats aren't the only way to determine place in a lineup which i hope strengthens my argument. RJ is among the to 60 point producers at wing in the nhl. he also plays in all three zones and commands respect in and out of the locker room. he isn't flashy but gets the job done. scores goals plays on special teams and, I think most of you would agree, can be the difference between winning and losing on some nights. he leaves it on the ice and didn't accept losing.

he may never score 30 goals but 25 goals and 55 points with intangibles is a second line player in my book.

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05-02-2011, 12:31 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Xoggz22 View Post
there are probably less than 5 teams with that kind of depth...

we all know that stats aren't the only way to determine place in a lineup which i hope strengthens my argument. RJ is among the to 60 point producers at wing in the nhl. he also plays in all three zones and commands respect in and out of the locker room. he isn't flashy but gets the job done. scores goals plays on special teams and, I think most of you would agree, can be the difference between winning and losing on some nights. he leaves it on the ice and didn't accept losing.

he may never score 30 goals but 25 goals and 55 points with intangibles is a second line player in my book.
Thats why I say Umby is an irrecoverable player for us.

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05-02-2011, 12:33 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
TOP 6. IMO it is a player for the first line too.
/sigh

I think RJ is a second line player that can fill in on the top lines for injuries or performance reasons. Thus top six. If he's a top line player (Nash), I won't use top six. I'll say top line. I don't say Juice is a top line player, I say he's a top six player.

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05-02-2011, 12:36 PM
  #42
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I don't like to think of myself as a homer(maybe I'm delusional), but I can't think of one team that RJ wouldn't be in the top six or at least sixth best/most valuable forward to their team.

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05-02-2011, 12:43 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
If you are asking if there are some teams that have enough depth to move him to the 3rd line? Not many. RJ is a mostly league wide top six player whatever you and your lack of hockey sense mentality dreams up today.
I agree with your opinion on RJ, but you gotta work on your delivery. When you make your personal digs, it only dilutes the substance of your statement.

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05-02-2011, 12:45 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Nordique View Post
I agree with your opinion on RJ, but you gotta work on your delivery. When you make your personal digs, it only dilutes the substance of your statement.
Delivery? Maybe. Personal digs. Not one in there.

Frankly, I'm not losing sleep over delivery. Many people have worse and don't get beat over the head with it. When there's some consistency, I might begin to care. If impatience is coming through, it's quite intentional.

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05-02-2011, 01:03 PM
  #45
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
/sigh

I think RJ is a second line player that can fill in on the top lines for injuries or performance reasons. Thus top six. If he's a top line player (Nash), I won't use top six. I'll say top line. I don't say Juice is a top line player, I say he's a top six player.
So we did not understand. I understood you bad... .

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05-02-2011, 03:50 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
So we did not understand. I understood you bad... .
mt-svk I think we have very different opinions on what classifies a player at top 6 material and hockey-sense.

Here are what I believe are your interpretations:

mt-svk on top 6 player: A player with euro-style skill and a savvy aura when on the puck. Quick stick handling along with a more fast paced-transition style of offense. No need for defense because the best defense is good offense.

mt-svk on "hockey-sense": A player who consistantly attempts flashy plays. Skates well and takes the puck over the body generally. Loads of tricks up their sleeves.

My interpretation is a little different:

Top 6 player: A player who can produce points efficiently and consistantly. Typically a 2nd line player should have atleast 45+points on the low end of a better team. Ideally 2 full lines of players approaching and surpassing 50 points would be a playoff caliber team. A top 6 player has a job to do - it doesn't matter how it gets done as long as it gets done. Their is a balance of offensive, defensive, and puck posession players that needs to be adressed in order to have a sucessful line combination. All players can NOT be small skillful forwards. Thus there is room for other styles of play to insert into the top 6. Also top 6 forwards should be + in the +/- category. While 3rd liners are expected to be - in the +/- stat.

Hockey-Sense: Good hockey sense is putting yourself in a position to succeed while knowing your own limitations. If you aren't capable of splitting 2 defenders - that doesn't mean you don't have good hockey sense. Being able to find the puck in dangerous situations or create them is hockey sense. Playing effectively no matter what your role is..checking line, energy line, top 2 lines, pp, ect... is establishing some hockey-sense.

You bother me mostly when you say filatov has good hockey-sense and Umberger doesn't. If Umberger's "tool box" was as full as Filatov's. He would be very very elite. However he makes the most of his capabilities with his "hockey-IQ" being quite high.

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05-02-2011, 04:06 PM
  #47
mt-svk
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Originally Posted by GrimReeper View Post
mt-svk I think we have very different opinions on what classifies a player at top 6 material and hockey-sense.

Here are what I believe are your interpretations:

mt-svk on top 6 player: A player with euro-style skill and a savvy aura when on the puck. Quick stick handling along with a more fast paced-transition style of offense. No need for defense because the best defense is good offense.

mt-svk on "hockey-sense": A player who consistantly attempts flashy plays. Skates well and takes the puck over the body generally. Loads of tricks up their sleeves.

My interpretation is a little different:

Top 6 player: A player who can produce points efficiently and consistantly. Typically a 2nd line player should have atleast 45+points on the low end of a better team. Ideally 2 full lines of players approaching and surpassing 50 points would be a playoff caliber team. A top 6 player has a job to do - it doesn't matter how it gets done as long as it gets done. Their is a balance of offensive, defensive, and puck posession players that needs to be adressed in order to have a sucessful line combination. All players can NOT be small skillful forwards. Thus there is room for other styles of play to insert into the top 6. Also top 6 forwards should be + in the +/- category. While 3rd liners are expected to be - in the +/- stat.

Hockey-Sense: Good hockey sense is putting yourself in a position to succeed while knowing your own limitations. If you aren't capable of splitting 2 defenders - that doesn't mean you don't have good hockey sense. Being able to find the puck in dangerous situations or create them is hockey sense. Playing effectively no matter what your role is..checking line, energy line, top 2 lines, pp, ect... is establishing some hockey-sense.

You bother me mostly when you say filatov has good hockey-sense and Umberger doesn't. If Umberger's "tool box" was as full as Filatov's. He would be very very elite. However he makes the most of his capabilities with his "hockey-IQ" being quite high.
Without comment... To Umby, he is with Jared Boll, my favourite player so I doubt I will say bad about him. And whats happen Filatov it is not the thread about him but IMO he has better hockey sense than Umby. But hockey sense is not all there are other things too for example psyche. But I do not analyse in this thread. This thread is about other thing.

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05-02-2011, 04:50 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by blahblah View Post
That would be a lot of depth.
Philly had it. Teams that win the Stanley Cup generally have it, its what generally makes them successful. As was mentioned, he was playing top line minutes to get the 60 points. I think having a guy with that potential on your 3rd line, helps you greatly. One can dream, right??

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05-02-2011, 04:57 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by BluejacketNut View Post
Philly had it. Teams that win the Stanley Cup generally have it, its what generally makes them successful.
Thing is we aren't here talking about Philadelphia or San Jose. Even on those teams there is a strong case Umberger is in their top six.

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05-02-2011, 05:02 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mt-svk View Post
Without comment... To Umby, he is with Jared Boll, my favourite player so I doubt I will say bad about him. And whats happen Filatov it is not the thread about him but IMO he has better hockey sense than Umby. But hockey sense is not all there are other things too for example psyche. But I do not analyse in this thread. This thread is about other thing.
I think the point that was being made is that we usually differentiate between hockey talent (ability to do amazing things) and hockey sense (ability to do the little things well). Filatov has talent, Umberger has sense.

Does that help?

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