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Red Fisher: Markov's best bet is the KHL

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Old
05-03-2011, 02:13 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by katatoniak View Post
Bonus is for 35+ years old and rookie. Not 100% sure
There are some clauses for injured players, but I dont think Markov qualifies.

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05-03-2011, 02:28 PM
  #77
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I don't think we have much of a choice here. We have to sign Markov. He is 'worth' the risk so to speak. Nothing jumps out at me UFA-wise so it adds up for me. Factor in a motivated Andrei and I would give him a 3+ year deal at what he makes now give or take .500 million.

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05-03-2011, 02:28 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by geeman View Post
2 issues

Markov`s injuries are worse ...3 maybe 4 torn ACL`S Williams had 2 I believe plus he had a major cut
For Markov, it was the same knee. And the last time it was two ligaments, the first time it was one. So his latest injury is the same as Williams.


Quote:
secondly Williams is a top 6 50-60 point player

Markov was a top 10 Dman in the league
Williams' game was based on speed and mobility. And it still is.

Markov's game is based on hockey vision, positioning and mobility. I have no doubt he will be very close to what he was before.

BTW, Gorges also had the same injury, and I also expect him to recover fully.

It's a common injury/surgery nowadays.

It's not like in the 90s when that part of elite medical science wasn't advanced enough and players like Koivu and Bure saw their careers take a blow.


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who has a better chance of being the same player ....get serious here bro
You're only being an alarmist. If the Habs sign Markov, they know his status and how he is, and in that case, it will be because he seems 100%.

Quote:
Markov will never return to form ....not a chance he plays like the Markov of 2007-2008
Actually, he had his best season overall last season in the 45 games he played. His impact was the same, his numbers were the same, except that he had a better overall game....

and then you don't seem to remember that game this season against Vancouver where the Sedins couldn't do nothing because Markov was being incredible in only his 5th or 6th game back.

Your absolutism has no place here as you don't know what Markov will be like.

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if he comes back and plays 70% of old ....do you want him at stupid money ?

why pay a # 3 Dman if thats all he will be at best IMHO crazy money then at 35
he counts on the cap regardless

5 mil is stupid given his history plus we played well without him and we dont need him
Entirely disagree, and the future will prove me right. Having both Markov AND Subban will bring us over the fold and make this team a contender.

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05-03-2011, 02:35 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
There are some clauses for injured players, but I dont think Markov qualifies.
Thanks, didn't realize. Either way, they could work something out but if Markov wants to stay here, he'll have to negotiate heavily.

Other teams might just give him what he wants.

I think deep down though what he wants most is to remain a hab, so if anything if he's willing to lower it to a 1 year deal I'd throw him a bone. I'd be willing to even give the guy 7 million for one season, just to show him we want his services and that he's well liked by management, but with an asterix. The asterix being that this bonus 1.5-2 million dollars comes out of his next 3 season deal if we were to sign him. Again, Markov needs to give Montreal the benefit of the doubt here. We'd probably be willing to throw him compensation pay of 1.5-2 mil more on a 1 year deal just to see what he's capable of. But if he's going to force their hand at a 3 year deal they're going to want substancially less money.

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05-03-2011, 02:41 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
But as always, overwhelming fear takes over logic.
You got it right. I bet that Markov will be a PP + 5 on 5 beast next year. Give him 5M for a couple of years ! Or another team will and we will sourly regret it.


Last edited by FF de Mars: 05-03-2011 at 02:48 PM.
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05-03-2011, 02:46 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by geeman View Post
2 issues

Markov`s injuries are worse ...3 maybe 4 torn ACL`S Williams had 2 I believe plus he had a major cut

secondly Williams is a top 6 50-60 point player

Markov was a top 10 Dman in the league

who has a better chance of being the same player ....get serious here bro

Markov will never return to form ....not a chance he plays like the Markov of 2007-2008

if he comes back and plays 70% of old ....do you want him at stupid money ?

why pay a # 3 Dman if thats all he will be at best IMHO crazy money then at 35
he counts on the cap regardless

5 mil is stupid given his history plus we played well without him and we dont need him
At 70% he's still better than most of the UFA D available. Unless you somehow believe the Habs overnight became a prime UFA destination, we have to sign him if we want quality talent on the back end. We can't afford to lose him for nothing. The impact of him in our lineup is significant enough to take the risk. Everything from even strength goals for and against to powerplay efficiency improves when he's playing. I rather not overpay some lesser player thinking 'grass is greener' and watch Markov excel elsewhere.

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05-03-2011, 02:52 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by bcv View Post
There are some clauses for injured players, but I dont think Markov qualifies.
i think he does qualify . He's played 400+ games and has been injured more than 100 days in the past year. Habs could sign him to a 1 year deal with performance clauses.

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Old
05-03-2011, 03:05 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
Markov never learned how to avoid bodychecks or take them...he's always way too vulnerable out there (arms/legs/knees/ neck/head/shoulders,etc...). He is made of glass and he needs to learn how to protect himself a la Subban...it's probably too late for him to learn this (who is gonna tell him to watch Subban tapes?!). Also...Gorges knows how to get ready for bodychecks, but Subban always keeps his head up and even knows how to avoid them (sometimes avoids 2 body-checkers coming at him) and handle the puck at the same time...hard to teach (Subban should be an iron-man, aka, not an injury prone dman).

IF Markov doesn't agree to a relatively cheap 2 year contract...goodbye (imo). Habs >>>>>>> Markov.


Get 2 UFA dmen to help Subban and Gorges...:
Brewer
Bieksa
Erhoff (good but too expensive?)
O'Brien (6'3, 220lbs...relatively cheap?)
Babchuk (6'5, 215lbs ; rightie ; offensive talent ; no heart/grit? not sure)
Wisniewski (only for a cheap $4mil/year, 4 yr contract)
Ericsson (6'4, 220lbs)
----------- ------------ ---- ------------ ---------------


__?__ - __?__
Spacek?/__?__ - Subban
Gill? - Gorges
Weber (winger/dman?)
Mara as 7th or 8th dman (cheap 1yr? for toughness/protection)
Sopel (cheap 1 yr deal?)
To be completely fair to Markov, Subban is probably the most mobile defenseman in the NHL (near the top for sure anyways), especially when it comes to rapid pivots in tight areas, obviously keeping his head up is giving him the ability to know when to do it.. Very few players can move the way he does, and Markov even in his youth was not any where near as dymanic with his skating, and he's a good skater.

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Old
05-03-2011, 03:35 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by optimus2861 View Post
Way too big a risk. If he blows his knee out again he'll be untradeable and stuck on the books for all those years.

I think 2 years at $5-6m/per is about right. Maybe $6.5m/per, max. Any longer is too much of a risk until he proves himself capable of playing 80 games again.
No, he'll retire and we'll be off the hook... or on the LTIR, which doesn't count against the cap.

Re-signing Markov is a no-brainer... there are a ton of posters here that don't quite remember how good Markov is. Subban is dynamite, yet, his play this year wasn't as good as Markov... that tells a lot !

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05-03-2011, 03:49 PM
  #85
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I think reds totaly off base here

markovs best bet is obviously washington or something, but to think he wouldnt take a SMALL pay cut to stay is just him trying not to be a "homer" in the eyes of newspaper readers

i have to strongly disagree with red on this one

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05-03-2011, 03:50 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
No, he'll retire and we'll be off the hook... or on the LTIR, which doesn't count against the cap.

Re-signing Markov is a no-brainer... there are a ton of posters here that don't quite remember how good Markov is. Subban is dynamite, yet, his play this year wasn't as good as Markov... that tells a lot !
Exactly.

Subban emerged in the 2nd half as a #1 D-man. Even if Markov comes back at 70% of his previous best, he'd still be a #1B-2A D-man. If he comes back at 100% he should still be better than Subban (unless he maintains his 2nd half production, which would put him par with Markov).

We absolutely can't afford to not sign him.

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Old
05-03-2011, 04:21 PM
  #87
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Think of how much better a team we would be with Markov, and a guy like Subban developing...come on guys, it's a no brainer, Markov has to be signed...his agent and PG seem to have been in contact, and right now it's a who blinks first sort of thing...

PG will want to keep the cap hit a little on the friendly side, and Meehan will want to get his client at least the same as before...

I think you will see a 3 yr deal around 14M, which will be a smaller cap hit, but a 3 yr term that Markov wants...

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05-03-2011, 04:26 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Redux91 View Post
I think reds totaly off base here

markovs best bet is obviously washington or something, but to think he wouldnt take a SMALL pay cut to stay is just him trying not to be a "homer" in the eyes of newspaper readers

i have to strongly disagree with red on this one
Proper thing, Red is out to lunch on this one....

Does everyone remember how Red Fisher called out PG last summer for trading Halak? What was the quote," this must have been the worst trade ever?" Something to that effect...Red Fisher was out of touch 25 years ago...put a diaper on him, and take him back to the nursing home...

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Old
05-03-2011, 04:30 PM
  #89
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I will streak through Ste-Catherine street if Markov isn't resigned. I am that certain that he will be resigned by the Habs.

What the hell else are they going to do if they don't resign Markov? It's not like Ehrhoff will be available, and Markov is much better than him.

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05-03-2011, 04:42 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
For Markov, it was the same knee. And the last time it was two ligaments, the first time it was one. So his latest injury is the same as Williams.




Williams' game was based on speed and mobility. And it still is.

Markov's game is based on hockey vision, positioning and mobility. I have no doubt he will be very close to what he was before.

BTW, Gorges also had the same injury, and I also expect him to recover fully.

It's a common injury/surgery nowadays.

It's not like in the 90s when that part of elite medical science wasn't advanced enough and players like Koivu and Bure saw their careers take a blow.




You're only being an alarmist. If the Habs sign Markov, they know his status and how he is, and in that case, it will be because he seems 100%.



Actually, he had his best season overall last season in the 45 games he played. His impact was the same, his numbers were the same, except that he had a better overall game....

and then you don't seem to remember that game this season against Vancouver where the Sedins couldn't do nothing because Markov was being incredible in only his 5th or 6th game back.

Your absolutism has no place here as you don't know what Markov will be like.



Entirely disagree, and the future will prove me right. Having both Markov AND Subban will bring us over the fold and make this team a contender.
The bolded part is not correct. Jacques Martin matched Hamrlik and Spacek against the Sedin twins, successfully incredible as you say including at times shorthanded (OMG instead of Gill). And this one of those times where fans just refuse to give either one of those players credit. The proof is in the event play by play and the score. The Sedins were maybe on ice the same time as Markov for about one shift.

Even when Markov came back the year before Hamrlik continued to draw top matchups and exceeded the TOI he should have been given. Markov's injuries have had a domino effect down through the D lineup.

I agree with signing him but for three years now it's been the same old story. Markov gets injured and there is wear and tear on the remaining top four d-men / d-man which for the most has only been Hamrlik who gets a lot of hate.

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05-03-2011, 08:41 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
At 70% he's still better than most of the UFA D available. Unless you somehow believe the Habs overnight became a prime UFA destination, we have to sign him if we want quality talent on the back end. We can't afford to lose him for nothing. The impact of him in our lineup is significant enough to take the risk. Everything from even strength goals for and against to powerplay efficiency improves when he's playing. I rather not overpay some lesser player thinking 'grass is greener' and watch Markov excel elsewhere.
"At 70% he's still better than most of the UFA D available". Most ridiculous fanboy statement ever. No hockey player at 70% is better than anyone in the league,unless you're talking Crosby vs. Boogard,or similar.C'mon, think

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Old
05-03-2011, 09:29 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by jlgib21 View Post
"At 70% he's still better than most of the UFA D available". Most ridiculous fanboy statement ever. No hockey player at 70% is better than anyone in the league,unless you're talking Crosby vs. Boogard,or similar.C'mon, think
What about you think? Markov at 70% is better than any other D on the Habs squad beside Subban.

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05-04-2011, 03:20 AM
  #93
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i don't know why anybody bothers replying to geeman, he's a negative nancy through and through

and the habs would have to be stupid to not sign him. you are living in a unicorn-filled, rainbow-colored world if you think "oh, we'll just get brewer, or bieska, or erhoff or o'brien"! first, none of them are as good as markov, and second, just because they are UFA doesn't mean they'll even become available. and that's not even talking about the teams these guys are playing for. like bieska or erhoff are not profiting from playing on the canucks....

look 'ma, a unicorn!

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Old
05-04-2011, 04:00 AM
  #94
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If we dont keep Markov, i will go nuts.

There is more than just hockey involved. The guy just got seriously injured for three times in two seasons, and you're just giving up on him ?

And hockey-wise, first of all, the medicine did progress, then, he will get several years on his contract, the history (Williams, Gaborik) showed us that even after an injury, there is no problem for the GM.
Its a good time to have a bargain. He is the best D available minus Lidström (but the Swede wont leave Detroit), and you could have a deadly core on D next season.

If you dont sign him, you are Dumb. With a capital D.

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05-04-2011, 07:12 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
For Markov, it was the same knee. And the last time it was two ligaments, the first time it was one. So his latest injury is the same as Williams.




Williams' game was based on speed and mobility. And it still is.

Markov's game is based on hockey vision, positioning and mobility. I have no doubt he will be very close to what he was before.

BTW, Gorges also had the same injury, and I also expect him to recover fully.

It's a common injury/surgery nowadays.

It's not like in the 90s when that part of elite medical science wasn't advanced enough and players like Koivu and Bure saw their careers take a blow.




You're only being an alarmist. If the Habs sign Markov, they know his status and how he is, and in that case, it will be because he seems 100%.



Actually, he had his best season overall last season in the 45 games he played. His impact was the same, his numbers were the same, except that he had a better overall game....

and then you don't seem to remember that game this season against Vancouver where the Sedins couldn't do nothing because Markov was being incredible in only his 5th or 6th game back.

Your absolutism has no place here as you don't know what Markov will be like.



Entirely disagree, and the future will prove me right. Having both Markov AND Subban will bring us over the fold and make this team a contender.
should be good to see the threads next season if we keep him and " down goes Frazier " happens again and he misses time

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05-04-2011, 07:49 AM
  #96
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i don't know why anybody bothers replying to geeman, he's a negative nancy through and through

and the habs would have to be stupid to not sign him. you are living in a unicorn-filled, rainbow-colored world if you think "oh, we'll just get brewer, or bieska, or erhoff or o'brien"! first, none of them are as good as markov, and second, just because they are UFA doesn't mean they'll even become available. and that's not even talking about the teams these guys are playing for. like bieska or erhoff are not profiting from playing on the canucks....

look 'ma, a unicorn!
I want to win bro ...this has dik all to to do about being negative

we have won nada since 1993 and I am tired of patch work and bandaids and thats all we have done ever since our last cup

and I bet most of you on this board dont even rememember 93

call it as you wish ....sign him to whatever you want my freind and hope it pans out
for all of us but for me its too risky as he has a frail body

lets keep hoping that DD is our next number 1 center ?

remember last year when PG traded Halak ....I said it in time this will be a great deal
and PG deserves the props for having the nuts to move him but most
and knocked the deal

bro its about vision and looking at the big picture ...not the micro shorter term

lets be realistic folks if you really look at the picture here and this isn`t being negative

where are we going with this lineup in the next 3 years ?

our top 6 isn`t good enough ....we cant get the job done 5 on 5 come playoff time
to compete with the top teams ...THATS WHAT ITS ALL ABOUT HAB FANS


Pleks and Cammy are not front liners because they are too inconsistent and dont produce enough ( dont look at Cammy in the playoffs ...we need him the season to do it )

we have no top shelf prospects or game changer prospects to speak off

our hope is with Price and Subban to be superstars and I think they can be

but our D needs a complete makeover if we are to compete and we have the cap space to make things happen

so if this team isnt ready to win anything right now ...I dont want stupid money tied to Markov for too long at 33 years of age

l have said it before a fair 2 year deal I can live with but if he goes for the jugular and the bids are 5 years or more in the 5 range for this team right now it makes no sense

the Wings can take this chance with Nik retiring soon but they are the model of retooling and a top 8 year in and out with an astute Gm and I seriously doubt Holland
would even risk it given his cap situation

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05-04-2011, 08:06 AM
  #97
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In Cammy's defense prior to playing for us he was always consistent even in the regular season so I don't think it's fair in two seasons with us that people are painting him as an inconsistent player, especially considering both years he was injured leading up to the playoffs and gave a really good effort once in the playoffs.

Half the people who are saying to sign Markov in the same breath are saying we need to because of inconsistent players like Cammy and Plekanec. Cammy had two seasons with us where he was injured and wasn't injured this season while the team was struggling big time. I don't think it's at all fair to blame the entire aspect of wanting Markov to stay on Mike "Inconsistent" Cammalleri. That label is one imo he doesn't deserve just yet. Give him a full season without being injured before you're so quick to judge.

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05-04-2011, 08:10 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by MTL-rules View Post
No, he'll retire and we'll be off the hook... or on the LTIR, which doesn't count against the cap.

Re-signing Markov is a no-brainer... there are a ton of posters here that don't quite remember how good Markov is. Subban is dynamite, yet, his play this year wasn't as good as Markov... that tells a lot !
Markov was solid my good man but Subban has Norris trophy all over him

Markov doesn`t have his wheels or game breaking ability or shot


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05-04-2011, 08:18 AM
  #99
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If we dont keep Markov, i will go nuts.

There is more than just hockey involved. The guy just got seriously injured for three times in two seasons, and you're just giving up on him ?

And hockey-wise, first of all, the medicine did progress, then, he will get several years on his contract, the history (Williams, Gaborik) showed us that even after an injury, there is no problem for the GM.
Its a good time to have a bargain. He is the best D available minus Lidström (but the Swede wont leave Detroit), and you could have a deadly core on D next season.

If you dont sign him, you are Dumb. With a capital D.
I DO agree with re-signing him. But how much are you willing to pay?

I agree that a GM would sign Markov although I don't think it will get to that point. As for Gaborik, have the NYR gotten the desired results out of him? Last I read the fans are putting up trade proposals to get rid of him.

And Markov did put up numbers two seasons ago when he came back comparable to his best season. But last year, although it was a small sample size, his numbers were way down. And how long is it going to take for him to get back into "game shape"? I mean the reality is he has not played much hockey in the last 2 1/4 seasons.

I hope the Habs sign Markov but at the same time history has shown it's very risky business.

How do you construct the rest of the D? With the d-men available to Gauthier this minute I'd rate them accordingly..............

Wiz: borderline top 4
Subban: top 4
Hamrlik: top 4
Spacek: 5/6
Weber: 5/6
Gorges: 5/6
Gill: 6/7
Mara: 5/6
Sopel: 5/6

I'm sure I'll get disagreements here but I don't consider Gorges a top pairing d-man longterm. He can fill in short term but not long term. And his offensive game although improved is still lacking. If Markov is signed I just hope the Habs have two or three other legitimate top 4 d-men so if he goes down there is not such wear and tear on the others which has been the result with Hamrlik.

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05-04-2011, 09:13 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
Red Fisher should retire.
Would you if they keep paying you a high 6 figure salary?

Anyways I highly doubt Markov heads to the KHL the Habs will sign him and if not us I am sure someone else in the NHL will.

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