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Old
05-05-2011, 03:21 PM
  #101
hockeygeek
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Originally Posted by RStar View Post
Hes got season tickets bro. To both teams.
just to yours....offer still stands

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Old
05-05-2011, 03:26 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by hockeygeek View Post
I think it's safe to say that neither one of us will convince each other differently no matter what we say
haha, ok. what a cop out. let's recap:

hockeygeek: you can't dispute that Grabo was better than Stastny last year at both ends of the ice
thedoctor: *provides statistical support for why Stastny was better at both ends*
hockeygeek: well your stats aren't perfect!
thedoctor: they're perfectly adequate, and much better than you just stating something as fact without any support
hockeygeek: we'll never convince each other anyways, agree to disagree

yeah sure bud. or you could just acknowledge that you have no support for your wild claims.

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Old
05-05-2011, 03:30 PM
  #103
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haha, ok. what a cop out. let's recap:

hockeygeek: you can't dispute that Grabo was better than Stastny last year at both ends of the ice
thedoctor: *provides statistical support for why Stastny was better at both ends*
hockeygeek: well your stats aren't perfect!
thedoctor: they're perfectly adequate, and much better than you just stating something as fact without any support
hockeygeek: we'll never convince each other anyways, agree to disagree

yeah sure bud. or you could just acknowledge that you have no support for your wild claims.
He saw a game on TV where Stastny got 0 points and was a -2. Hows that for stats?

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Old
05-05-2011, 03:36 PM
  #104
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Wouldn't touch this from a leafs perspective.

Stastny has benefitted from the players around him. In 06-07, and 07-08 he had Sakic bouncing pucks off him as part of the fabled Arnason-Sakic-Stastny line. Then after Sakic went down the next year he regressed to the level he is - a mere 30-40 pt player. From his perspective he was lucky to suffer that injury (one I expect to re-occur) as it inflated his ppg to a level unreflective of his skill. This gave us fans unrealistic expectations, thinking 0.8ppg or better was realistic when in fact had he not been injured we would have seen him be a 0.45ppg. Following that we come up to the 09-10 season. We all know the story there. Anderson carried the team, and once again Stastny benefitted from his team mates play. When Anderson began to suffer last season (and traded) he was no longer able to leach off points and his play once again regressed to his typical level. Even more embarrassing was that Duchene managed to outscore him, despite Stastny’s second line averaging a minute more of play / game. It’s no wonder this was the first year since his rookie year that he averaged less than 21 minutes a game, at a pathetic 19:45.

Kulemin on the other hand is much younger and has more room to grow. Managed to produce the same amount as Stastny over an entire season, and did so averaging 2 and half minutes less of game play. Over a full season that’s like 200 minutes less or 3 games! Imagine if Kulemin had the benefit of playing those 3 more games of ice time.

Then we have the first round pick. Enough said. Avalanche scouts are good so they can just draft another #1 centre with it and this guy unlike the veteran Stastny will actually be in his prime when the Avalanche are ready to challenge.
No brainer here.

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Old
05-05-2011, 03:42 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
haha, ok. what a cop out. let's recap:

hockeygeek: you can't dispute that Grabo was better than Stastny last year at both ends of the ice
thedoctor: *provides statistical support for why Stastny was better at both ends*hockeygeek: well your stats aren't perfect!
thedoctor: they're perfectly adequate, and much better than you just stating something as fact without any support
hockeygeek: we'll never convince each other anyways, agree to disagree

yeah sure bud. or you could just acknowledge that you have no support for your wild claims.
Statistical support...Grabbo scored 7 more goals than Stastny, had 1 more point, was +21 better, and both of his wingers had career years. Your own QOC stat would suggest that Grabbo is of higher QOC than Stastny...the player your trying to promote....I'm not going any further with you because reason is not one of your strong skills

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:08 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by hockeygeek View Post
Statistical support...Grabbo scored 7 more goals than Stastny, had 1 more point, was +21 better, and both of his wingers had career years. Your own QOC stat would suggest that Grabbo is of higher QOC than Stastny...the player your trying to promote....I'm not going any further with you because reason is not one of your strong skills
yes, please, continue with the personal attacks, it's making your case that much better.

Stastny also played less games. his points per game was higher -- usually a better indicator than just point totals, which measure more instantaneous health as well. and even so, he had more assists than Grabo. hint: Stastny is not a goalscorer, he's a playmaker.

You are absolutely correct that Grabo would show up as higher competition that Stastny with the QoC metric. So what? +/- isn't any good in individual cases, that we know, but in aggregate, it's a decent measurement. the outliers the stat inevitably creates are washed out in the big average, the larger sample set. pointing out such small sample noise just shows you don't understand statistics.

really, all you're saying is that you think +/- is a valuable stat for determining individual player quality. that's completely hilarious. I suppose you think Semin is a better defender than Grabo or Stastny both with his +22 rating, hmm?

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:15 PM
  #107
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To TOR: Stastny

To AVS: Finger, Scrivens, Lebda

Leafs get second line center to play behind Grabovski, Avs get #1 elite goalie and top line shutdown pair.


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Old
05-05-2011, 04:20 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Baron View Post
Wouldn't touch this from a leafs perspective.

Stastny has benefitted from the players around him. In 06-07, and 07-08 he had Sakic bouncing pucks off him as part of the fabled Arnason-Sakic-Stastny line. Then after Sakic went down the next year he regressed to the level he is - a mere 30-40 pt player. From his perspective he was lucky to suffer that injury (one I expect to re-occur) as it inflated his ppg to a level unreflective of his skill. This gave us fans unrealistic expectations, thinking 0.8ppg or better was realistic when in fact had he not been injured we would have seen him be a 0.45ppg. Following that we come up to the 09-10 season. We all know the story there. Anderson carried the team, and once again Stastny benefitted from his team mates play. When Anderson began to suffer last season (and traded) he was no longer able to leach off points and his play once again regressed to his typical level. Even more embarrassing was that Duchene managed to outscore him, despite Stastnyís second line averaging a minute more of play / game. Itís no wonder this was the first year since his rookie year that he averaged less than 21 minutes a game, at a pathetic 19:45.

Kulemin on the other hand is much younger and has more room to grow. Managed to produce the same amount as Stastny over an entire season, and did so averaging 2 and half minutes less of game play. Over a full season thatís like 200 minutes less or 3 games! Imagine if Kulemin had the benefit of playing those 3 more games of ice time.

Then we have the first round pick. Enough said. Avalanche scouts are good so they can just draft another #1 centre with it and this guy unlike the veteran Stastny will actually be in his prime when the Avalanche are ready to challenge.
No brainer here.
Actually, hes not. Kulemin and Stastny are the same age. The difference is Kulemins best year so far is equivalent to Stastny's worst season production wise. If Kulemin has room to grow at 25, so does Stastny at the same age.

I love Kulemin as much as the next Leafs fan, but him putting up multiple 70+ point seasons as Stastny has done is a longshot at best.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:20 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by thedoctor View Post
yes, please, continue with the personal attacks, it's making your case that much better.

Stastny also played less games. his points per game was higher -- usually a better indicator than just point totals, which measure more instantaneous health as well. and even so, he had more assists than Grabo. hint: Stastny is not a goalscorer, he's a playmaker.

You are absolutely correct that Grabo would show up as higher competition that Stastny with the QoC metric. So what? +/- isn't any good in individual cases, that we know, but in aggregate, it's a decent measurement. the outliers the stat inevitably creates are washed out in the big average, the larger sample set. pointing out such small sample noise just shows you don't understand statistics.

really, all you're saying is that you think +/- is a valuable stat for determining individual player quality. that's completely hilarious. I suppose you think Semin is a better defender than Grabo or Stastny both with his +22 rating, hmm?
Not trying to get involved with your guys' argument. But I really hate people using the "on pace for" based stats. It was really annoying when lots of our fanbase was touting bozak for what he would have had last year on an 82game skid. We are still being grilled for it to this day.

Not sure why I posted that. But it irks me when I see people use this stat for a quality player when it gets labelled "useless" for a lesser player.

Anyways; carry on with your guy's argument.

Cheers

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:26 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by 100angryvikings View Post
Actually, hes not. Kulemin and Stastny are the same age. The difference is Kulemins best year so far is equivalent to Stastny's worst season production wise. If Kulemin has room to grow at 25, so does Stastny at the same age.

I love Kulemin as much as the next Leafs fan, but him putting up multiple 70+ point seasons as Stastny has done is a longshot at best.
I thought his post was pretty clearly being sarcastic.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:27 PM
  #111
thedoctor
                    
 
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Originally Posted by jmart21 View Post
Not trying to get involved with your guys' argument. But I really hate people using the "on pace for" based stats. It was really annoying when lots of our fanbase was touting bozak for what he would have had last year on an 82game skid. We are still being grilled for it to this day.

Not sure why I posted that. But it irks me when I see people use this stat for a quality player when it gets labelled "useless" for a lesser player.

Anyways; carry on with your guy's argument.

Cheers
depends on the sample size. 30-40 games? definitely too low -- could be a hot streak, could be anything. 60-80 is a lot better.

honestly even then it's low though. We're sitting here comparing Stastny's worst season to Grabo's best, and acting like that's some absolute indicator of player quality. I'd prefer we talked about career stats -- the sample size makes it a better indicator. Stastny has a career PPg of .922. Grabo's is .612. This shouldn't even be a discussion.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:29 PM
  #112
100angryvikings
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I thought his post was pretty clearly being sarcastic.
Woops, sometimes I miss sarcasm on the internet. Read it again, and you're right. My apologies

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:29 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by 100angryvikings View Post
Actually, hes not. Kulemin and Stastny are the same age. The difference is Kulemins best year so far is equivalent to Stastny's worst season production wise. If Kulemin has room to grow at 25, so does Stastny at the same age.

I love Kulemin as much as the next Leafs fan, but him putting up multiple 70+ point seasons as Stastny has done is a longshot at best.
Actually, he is. Stastny was born in 1985 and is 25. Kulemin was born in 1986 and is 24.

But really thats a bit of a moot point as the more important factor is that Kulemin's ice time is trending upwards. Stastny's is declining and based on current projections should be significantly under 15 mins/ game when his whale of a contract expires.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:30 PM
  #114
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Actually, he is. Stastny was born in 1985 and is 25. Kulemin was born in 1986 and is 24.

But really thats a bit of a moot point as the more important factor is that Kulemin's ice time is trending upwards. Stastny's is declining and based on current projections should be significantly under 15 mins/ game when his whale of a contract expires.
Now your sarcasm doesnt fool me!

Im not falling for it again....

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:32 PM
  #115
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Woops, sometimes I miss sarcasm on the internet. Read it again, and you're right. My apologies
God I hope hes being sarcastic anyways.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:34 PM
  #116
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To Toronto
-Statsny

To Colorado
-Phillys 1st rd pick in 2011
-Kulemin
Kulemin arguably had the better season. Is the more physical player. Makes about 4+ million less. And isn't going anywhere.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:34 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by shadow1 View Post
To TOR: Stastny

To AVS: Finger, Scrivens, Lebda

Leafs get second line center to play behind Grabovski, Avs get #1 elite goalie and top line shutdown pair.

if you're going to be sarcastic do it right because Scrivens is far from a trash goalie prospect.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:41 PM
  #118
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God I hope hes being sarcastic anyways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by birddog View Post
Kulemin arguably had the better season. Is the more physical player. Makes about 4+ million less. And isn't going anywhere.
ummmm....is everybody here being sarcastic. I honestly cant tell anymore

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:43 PM
  #119
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if you're going to be sarcastic do it right because Scrivens is far from a trash goalie prospect.
He also isn't the principal in a deal for any significant player, let alone Paul Stastny. Calm down Jimmy.

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05-05-2011, 04:44 PM
  #120
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ummmm....is everybody here being sarcastic. I honestly cant tell anymore
birddog is a pretty well known Leafs homer. In his mind, hes 100% serious.

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:48 PM
  #121
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birddog is a pretty well known Leafs homer. In his mind, hes 100% serious.
I wont bother than, lol. I guess living in Montreal has made me a bit more grounded as a Leafs fan

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Old
05-05-2011, 04:50 PM
  #122
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I hear Mike Richards always dreamed of being a Leafs player. I think his dad might have said something about Flyers performance this playoff. Might be available.

Stastny is not the center you are looking for.


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Old
05-05-2011, 06:57 PM
  #123
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I think it's safe to say that neither one of us will convince each other differently no matter what we say
You can't convince each other of anything, that's probably true, but I'm convinced that Rstar is competent and hockeygeek is clueless.

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Old
05-05-2011, 07:49 PM
  #124
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I think it's safe to say that neither one of us will convince each other differently no matter what we say
Problem is.......you're wrong.

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Old
05-05-2011, 08:56 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by Baron View Post
Wouldn't touch this from a leafs perspective.

Stastny has benefitted from the players around him. In 06-07, and 07-08 he had Sakic bouncing pucks off him as part of the fabled Arnason-Sakic-Stastny line. Then after Sakic went down the next year he regressed to the level he is - a mere 30-40 pt player. From his perspective he was lucky to suffer that injury (one I expect to re-occur) as it inflated his ppg to a level unreflective of his skill. This gave us fans unrealistic expectations, thinking 0.8ppg or better was realistic when in fact had he not been injured we would have seen him be a 0.45ppg. Following that we come up to the 09-10 season. We all know the story there. Anderson carried the team, and once again Stastny benefitted from his team mates play. When Anderson began to suffer last season (and traded) he was no longer able to leach off points and his play once again regressed to his typical level. Even more embarrassing was that Duchene managed to outscore him, despite Stastnyís second line averaging a minute more of play / game. Itís no wonder this was the first year since his rookie year that he averaged less than 21 minutes a game, at a pathetic 19:45.

Kulemin on the other hand is much younger and has more room to grow. Managed to produce the same amount as Stastny over an entire season, and did so averaging 2 and half minutes less of game play. Over a full season thatís like 200 minutes less or 3 games! Imagine if Kulemin had the benefit of playing those 3 more games of ice time.

Then we have the first round pick. Enough said. Avalanche scouts are good so they can just draft another #1 centre with it and this guy unlike the veteran Stastny will actually be in his prime when the Avalanche are ready to challenge.
No brainer here.
Uhm... I can't tell if your serious. They're the same age. What kind of drugs are you on up in Toronto?

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