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Old
07-14-2004, 04:34 PM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
Remind me again why Dion Phaneuf WILL be in the NHL next year, since he hasn't really accomplished anything yet by your own definition?

And since when did player agents become scouts?
Why will Phanuef play in the NHL next season? Pretty simple. Almost anyone who has seen him says he dominated pretty almost every game he played in at the junior level. He is physically, mentally and emotionally mature enough to take the step to the next level. If he were a year older that would likely mean the AHL, but since he is a year too young to be sent to the AHL he will likely stick with the NHL club to continue his development. It is very evident that another year in junior would do nothing for the player, so the logic step is to continue challenging him. There is not much more for Phaneuf to prove at the junior level. As I said, if the AHL were an option he would likely end up there, but it is not an option. It is the NHL or junior hockey. Look for Phaneuf to at worst start the season in Calgary (if there is a season) and then be returned to junior after Christmas (a la Fleury last year).

And since when did player agents become scouts? The minute they decided to tie their income potential to young players entering into the game? Agents are pretty good evaluators of talent, they have to be. They jump on these kids and get a lot of them signed to representation pacts when they are 15 or 16. Most of the best junior age players all have agents and they do their bidding for them, all for a piece of the pie when they turn pro. These agents have to see brilliance before it happens as their livelihoods depend on it. Agents have a lot more say as to how things shake out. I wish that aspect of the game were more widely known to the average Joe. Agents do a lot of work behind the scenes (getting their player seen, showcased, exposed to media, making trades happen, etc.) than they get credit for. If you're looking for a saviour in the CBA war, look at the player agents. THEY are the ones with the most to lose.

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07-14-2004, 04:35 PM
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
That's right, I come and discuss a subject fairly and politely and I get called a troll. Isn't that the last resort for someone who is backed into a corner? I thought so. I've stayed here and defended my position and have not been insulting (can't say the same for you thome_26). No wonder people avoid talking with you folks. There's no discussion allowed. Stick with it thome_26. The future is so bring you gotta wear blinders!

Somebody who comes onto a board and tells the entire group of posters that they're out of touch with reality and don't know what they're talking about is a troll. How in any way have you backed me into a corner? What kind of evidence have you shown that the Oilers should be worried and that their prospects have both little probabilty of making it and small potential when they get there? Sure, if people want to avoid all of us - that's great... I would suggest you join those ranks as you add nothing to the board. There was a discussion earlier on another poster who is in some ways similar to you (Matts). You're the type who has nothing really interesting to offer so you become negative and pessimistic and claim some kind of greater insight into the hockey world and some kind of connection to a greater reality. It's a joke.

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07-14-2004, 04:38 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli


You are also correct that the Flames do not have a prospect like Schremp. Schremp is a swing for the fences and nothing more. He either works out, or the Oilers look stupid for selecting a player that was on a very slippery slope (no player that has fallen as far as Schremp has ever gone on to have a successful career in the NHL BTW). It was a good gamble by a team with a second first rounder desperate to find a top line talent. In defense of the Flames, that has not been their strategy in selecting players since before Button was hired. The Flames have focused on drafting players with a high potential for playing in the NHL, and look to have some players that will indeed do so. Their latest draft pick, Chris Chucko, is a player that is a pro-typical NHL player. He does nothing exceptionally well, but does nothing poorly. He has a very well rounded game and numerous teams (including the Oilers) were looking at him. He is a pick with less upside, but very good potential to play in the NHL in some capacity. He is similar to Eric Nystrom in that regard. A player that is not pretty, but is extremely effective and plays the NHL style of game.


Prospects come in all different shapes and sizes with all sorts of warts. You have to consider the warts that they have and exactly how they fit into the big picture. For Edmonton it is very likely that Deslauriers will play in some capacity. The shelf is bare otherwise. Schremp is a kid that will have some hurdles to overcome, but he may get a chance to skate in the NHL with Edmonton for the same reasons Deslauriers does. What other options do they have? Until Edmonton develops some top line talent to prevent these kids from getting a shot (the emcumbent preventing management from giving the opportunity) these question marks get a chance. In other organizations its very likely that a lot of these kids don't see the light of day (or are drafted at all by the teams in question). Drafting philosophy comes into play here and Edmonton's is one that they like to pick the guys big on potential but short on probability. That's the thing that needs to be worked into the equation, probablility. WILL a kid get the opportunity and WILL he have enough to stick. Look to Rita for answers to that question.

I'm not condemning the Oilers prospects or anything. Heck, I think there are some good prospects there. What I am saying is to be a little more realistic in your hopes for your players. There's a big difference between having skills and being able to play in the NHL. What is the likelihood of a player getting a chance to display those skills and impressing enough to stick (production counts here)?
I gotta join in.

1. Havlat fell pretty far and has turned out fine
2. Schremp needs to work on some stuff... Yeah good call. ALL PROSPECTS DO, otherwise they would be playing in the NHL. And questions about him? Yup that too, hell Gretz had questions before he started playing in the NHL.

Schremp is a potential franchise player, same as Phaneuf. Neither are sure things and that is why we call them prospects. Saying that Dion is a sure bet goes against your entire argument here. What quality does he have that makes him a sure bet?

IMHO there is no such thing. Every player is a potential bust, but few are potential superstars. Dion and Robbie are both in the same boat, sure Shremp maybe less likely then Phaneuf to rise to greatness, but claiming that anyone is a sure bet is ridiculous. For all we know Dion could decide to give up hockey this summer.



Your whole argument is full of holes

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07-14-2004, 04:41 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
Your whole argument is full of holes
Because he's a troll.... I don't know how many times I get into one of these and say to myself, ok, just ignore the person, they're just a troll...... one of my flaws is being unable to stop myself from feeding it

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07-14-2004, 04:42 PM
  #55
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Lets look at those Calgary prospects

Medeved is a long shot, yes we mentioned his waistline and so does every scout. The concern is that he can't stay away from the buffet table. That quote is straight from Redline BTW.

Chucko may make it but his upside is not that great and it will take him a long time to develop. He is an ok pick but IMO nothing to get real excited about.

Eric Nystrom is a player I like, should be a decent NHL'er. Again I don't see star potential.

Pheneuf will most likely be a very good dman, not a lot of offensive upside but very solid.

Sorry but I don't see a lot of star potential there at all besides Phaneuf.

Now Edmonton.

Deslauriers is considered a solid prospect by most scouts and had a good year last year which helped his value. He also has a lot tougher competition on the international stage then Medeved. Canada has a lot of great goalies. Medeved is not even listed as one of your top 10 prospects. I would rate Deslauries way ahead of Medeved as most scouts would.

Robbie Schremp is a wildcard, but you said NO player has ever been a star that had a bad reputation. WRONG!!. Mark Messier was considered a player that had a bad attitude and a player that may not develop because of this attitude. That is just one example, I am not going to give anymore. I am sure Lowetide will remember this also. Just in case. NO, I am not comparing Messier to Schremp.

I would say both teams have a few high end prospects but Edmonton has more depth in defence, goaltending in their prospect list.

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07-14-2004, 04:43 PM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
If you're looking for a saviour in the CBA war, look at the player agents. THEY are the ones with the most to lose.
You have to be kidding us....

I will give you credit in that you have clearly livened the board up this afternoon, there were a few points that I wanted to call you on myself but you kept moving the target as too what position you were taking which makes it a little difficult.

However, the mere suggestion that agents will be the saviours to the CBA almost has me blowing snot bubbles. These guys are a big part of the problem and the mere suggestion otherwise is enough to look at you with less credibility than I did before.

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07-14-2004, 04:43 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by MrMackey
The reason I chose to mention Phaneuf in the first place is that, even though you never mentioned the Flames in your posts, you came across as a Flames fan that was here to let us know that we were all overly optimistic and that we shouldn't get our hopes up.

I figured you'd bite on Phaneuf... but I didn't expect that you'd go on and on about Medvedev and Chucko with the same exuberance that you were cautioning us Oiler fans against.
Exuberance? Hardly. I think that if Chucko plays in the NHL it will be as a third or fourth line grinder. I'm not sure he has any more talent than that. I would say that of the Flames prospects he is probably near the top of players that Sutter will be watching though, as he plays the game he wants his team to play. Its all up to the player to earn the chance. I don't think Medvedev will play in the NHL at all, prefering to stay in Europe where the travel and play is easy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thome_26
Be a little more realistic..... If you think it's unreal that we have 6-7 players REALLY pushing to get into the lineup in the next two years then you don't know your stuff buddy.
You think that you'll see 6-7 players pushing their way into the Oiler's lineup in two seasons? Okay, please feel free to point those out. And we're not talking guys who stop for a cup of coffee either. I will happily take note of these players and then come back here in two years and rip you to pieces when they don't. Don't know my stuff? Please, saying what you just said speaks volumes about what you know about hockey. Three rookies a season AND remaining competitive? Get serious. Unless the Oilers are trying to push their way into the Crosby sweepstakes what you suggest will never happen.

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07-14-2004, 04:47 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by spaz44
Robbie Schremp is a wildcard, but you said NO player has ever been a star that had a bad reputation. WRONG!!. Mark Messier was considered a player that had a bad attitude and a player that may not develop because of this attitude. That is just one example, I am not going to give anymore. I am sure Lowetide will remember this also. Just in case. NO, I am not comparing Messier to Schremp.
Good call!

And JR, StevieY, Kovalchuk and a boatload of others. Some kids are jerks when they are 17/18. Everyone matures at a different rate.

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07-14-2004, 04:50 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s7ark
Good call!

And JR, StevieY, Kovalchuk and a boatload of others. Some kids are jerks when they are 17/18. Everyone matures at a different rate.
To add another.... Mario Lemieux... in his case history proves that his attitute was well deserved.

Still it was a different story when he was 18 and nothing more than unproven potential.

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07-14-2004, 04:52 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
You think that you'll see 6-7 players pushing their way into the Oiler's lineup in two seasons? Okay, please feel free to point those out. And we're not talking guys who stop for a cup of coffee either. I will happily take note of these players and then come back here in two years and rip you to pieces when they don't. Don't know my stuff? Please, saying what you just said speaks volumes about what you know about hockey. Three rookies a season AND remaining competitive? Get serious. Unless the Oilers are trying to push their way into the Crosby sweepstakes what you suggest will never happen.
likely not all will make it, but 6 or 7 have the potential too.

Rita, Salmo, Lynch, Woywitka, those are the closest. Outside chances for Pouliot, Schremp, Greene, JDD, Mihknov, basically anyone in our top 10 or 12 has a good chance to play in the NHL. And for an extended period of time.

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07-14-2004, 04:55 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
You think that you'll see 6-7 players pushing their way into the Oiler's lineup in two seasons? Okay, please feel free to point those out. And we're not talking guys who stop for a cup of coffee either. I will happily take note of these players and then come back here in two years and rip you to pieces when they don't. Don't know my stuff?
First off the list:

1.Woywitka
2.Lynch
3.Greene
4.Rita
5.Samlelainen

That leaves 1-2 spots left to match the number I said, and if you honestly beleive that atleast one of Pouliot, Schremp, Niinimaki, or Mikhnov won't be cracking the Oilers lineup in a couple years then you don't follow them and the team closely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
Please, saying what you just said speaks volumes about what you know about hockey. Three rookies a season AND remaining competitive? Get serious. Unless the Oilers are trying to push their way into the Crosby sweepstakes what you suggest will never happen.
Would you consider the Oilers competative in the last two years? Well, here's a list of guys that broke the lineup in the last two years WHILE STAYING COMPETITIVE:

1. Raffi Torres
2. Ales Hemsky
3. MA Bergeron
4. Alex Semenov
5. Fernando Pisani
6. Jason Chimera
7. Jarret Stoll
8. Ty Conklin

SO there's EIGHT right there. Do you have some kind of weak rebuttle to that?

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07-14-2004, 04:56 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
Why will Phanuef play in the NHL next season? Pretty simple. Almost anyone who has seen him says he dominated pretty almost every game he played in at the junior level. He is physically, mentally and emotionally mature enough to take the step to the next level. If he were a year older that would likely mean the AHL, but since he is a year too young to be sent to the AHL he will likely stick with the NHL club to continue his development. It is very evident that another year in junior would do nothing for the player, so the logic step is to continue challenging him. There is not much more for Phaneuf to prove at the junior level. As I said, if the AHL were an option he would likely end up there, but it is not an option. It is the NHL or junior hockey. Look for Phaneuf to at worst start the season in Calgary (if there is a season) and then be returned to junior after Christmas (a la Fleury last year).

And since when did player agents become scouts? The minute they decided to tie their income potential to young players entering into the game? Agents are pretty good evaluators of talent, they have to be. They jump on these kids and get a lot of them signed to representation pacts when they are 15 or 16. Most of the best junior age players all have agents and they do their bidding for them, all for a piece of the pie when they turn pro. These agents have to see brilliance before it happens as their livelihoods depend on it. Agents have a lot more say as to how things shake out. I wish that aspect of the game were more widely known to the average Joe. Agents do a lot of work behind the scenes (getting their player seen, showcased, exposed to media, making trades happen, etc.) than they get credit for. If you're looking for a saviour in the CBA war, look at the player agents. THEY are the ones with the most to lose.
First off - I appreciate the reply. It was remarkably un-trollish by my definition.

Second thing, regarding Mr. Phaneuf - The annals of hockey history is filled with stories of kids that dominated at the junior level but couldn't hack NHL quality opposition. I would like to see Dion move to the pro level before I consider him such a commodity that most teams would give up almost any player for, as you suggested. Jani Rita looked like a man among boys at the World juniors, look where he is now...

It just seems to me that you have two sets of rules; one for Dion Phaneuf, and one for every other prospect out there.

Some good points about agents, but IMO when it comes to NHL talent they're better at selling it than judging it. And I'm sorry, but I have a hard time looking at player agents as our saviors. Their only goal is to squeeze as much $$ out of an owner as possible for their clients, not to save the NHL for us and our children. If the NHL dies, they'll go back to being lawyers or look for other star athletes to represent. I doubt they'll be hitting the A&W coupons anytime soon.

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07-14-2004, 04:56 PM
  #63
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The only thing I can say to you folks is keep hoping. That's all you have at this point. If that's what lets you sleep at night, then keep at it. Just remember though, its the same thing every year. The latest "flavor of the week" is the saviour for the club and is going to rekindle the magic of days gone by. The exact same things were said about Jason Bonsignore (the next Mario Lemieux, which always made me laugh), Steve Kelly, Boyd Devereaux, Michel Reisen, Michael Henrich, Jani Rita, etc. The big question I have is which magic? The late 80's Oilers or the disappearing act that has been Oiler first round picks for the better part of 10 years?

:lol

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07-14-2004, 04:59 PM
  #64
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I wondered how long it would take for some of the Flamer trolls to waddle over to the 3rd busiest board at HockeysFuture.com (hey, Boston & Montreal fans reallyy love their hockey). If anyone thinks this is bad, just imagine if the unthinkable happened............
And to think, they came within one single shot.

Im not sure how Id react as an Oiler fan, having come so close to the Holy Grail, then having it snatched away at the last moment by a player let loose by my organization years ago. But I know I wouldnt be getting involved in pissing contests on the board of my teams arch-rival regarding the prospect depth of the 2 organizations (Especially since its so very obvious how par apart the 2 organizations are when it comes to that)

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07-14-2004, 05:00 PM
  #65
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Does this mean you'll actually leave now and troll somebody else? (yes, some of your posts were un-troll like in manner, but the entire point of you being here saying what you are is as trollish as outKast used to be!)

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07-14-2004, 05:01 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
The only thing I can say to you folks is keep hoping. That's all you have at this point. If that's what lets you sleep at night, then keep at it. Just remember though, its the same thing every year. The latest "flavor of the week" is the saviour for the club and is going to rekindle the magic of days gone by. The exact same things were said about Jason Bonsignore (the next Mario Lemieux, which always made me laugh), Steve Kelly, Boyd Devereaux, Michel Reisen, Michael Henrich, Jani Rita, etc. The big question I have is which magic? The late 80's Oilers or the disappearing act that has been Oiler first round picks for the better part of 10 years?

:lol
But NOT the past 4 (Since Lowe took over) All our 1st round picks since then look pretty solid

Hemsky
Niinimaki
Pouliot
Dubnyk/Schremp

Keep dreaming? At least our fan aren't trying to pass our team off as an elite consistent cup threat team. Might want to check your own backyard there friend

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07-14-2004, 05:01 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
The only thing I can say to you folks is keep hoping. That's all you have at this point. If that's what lets you sleep at night, then keep at it. Just remember though, its the same thing every year. The latest "flavor of the week" is the saviour for the club and is going to rekindle the magic of days gone by. The exact same things were said about Jason Bonsignore (the next Mario Lemieux, which always made me laugh), Steve Kelly, Boyd Devereaux, Michel Reisen, Michael Henrich, Jani Rita, etc. The big question I have is which magic? The late 80's Oilers or the disappearing act that has been Oiler first round picks for the better part of 10 years?

:lol
And exactly what kind of polite and courteous response do you think an inflammatory remark like is going to garner?

If it looks like a troll and talks like a troll...

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07-14-2004, 05:10 PM
  #68
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Where's OutKast when you need him to slap down a troll?

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07-14-2004, 05:14 PM
  #69
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Yep

time to use the ignore button.

Any intelligence in this thread has now evaporated with another Calgary troll who has now shown his true colours.

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07-14-2004, 05:18 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digger12
And exactly what kind of polite and courteous response do you think an inflammatory remark like is going to garner?

If it looks like a troll and talks like a troll...
There's about six posts I was going to reply to, especially that blowhard thome_26 (you really don't have a clue my friend), but I think I'll just reply to this one and have said my piece. I came here to try and have a civil discussion in regards to hockey and I get dogpiled by the ignorant and labelled a troll. Simply because I have a different view than those. I take abuse after abuse and fire back something off the cuff in response to that abuse and I get hammered for being a troll? I guess that's fair in Oilerland? Someone wants to just talk hockey and because they have a different view its okay to pile on and berate the poster until they have finally had enough and leave? Doesn't sound like a place where people are in touch with much to me. Too bad, because I was somewhat enjoying the discussion (Digger, I would have liked to gone more indepth into the agent impact on the game and where it could go). But the likes of thome_26, windowlicker, and s7ark make it extremely difficult to carry on a civil conversation and stay on topic. Nice to see those third grade educations were put to good use fellas. Good luck Oiler fans. I hope that someday your ship comes in and your prospects attain the level that you predict. It will be interesting to see another dynasty in the NHL again.

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07-14-2004, 05:38 PM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
There's about six posts I was going to reply to, especially that blowhard thome_26 (you really don't have a clue my friend), but I think I'll just reply to this one and have said my piece. I came here to try and have a civil discussion in regards to hockey and I get dogpiled by the ignorant and labelled a troll. Simply because I have a different view than those. I take abuse after abuse and fire back something off the cuff in response to that abuse and I get hammered for being a troll? I guess that's fair in Oilerland? Someone wants to just talk hockey and because they have a different view its okay to pile on and berate the poster until they have finally had enough and leave? Doesn't sound like a place where people are in touch with much to me. Too bad, because I was somewhat enjoying the discussion (Digger, I would have liked to gone more indepth into the agent impact on the game and where it could go). But the likes of thome_26, windowlicker, and s7ark make it extremely difficult to carry on a civil conversation and stay on topic. Nice to see those third grade educations were put to good use fellas. Good luck Oiler fans. I hope that someday your ship comes in and your prospects attain the level that you predict. It will be interesting to see another dynasty in the NHL again.
In all fairness, you were unwilling to see other people's opinions in your posts, and continued to try and force feed your opinions on others that disagreed. People were willing to agree that Phaneuf is a very good prospect, but still has bust potential, but you were unwilling to give a guy like JDD any credit. Medvedev could end up being the better goalie of the two, while I highly doubt it, but you were unwilling to accept that as a possibility. You only argued the good about Flames prospects, and only the bad about Oiler prospects. It is true that the Oilers have incredible depth in reguards to prospects, and if guy's like Rita were in Pittsburgh, or even Calgary, they'd probably have gotten there shot by now. The Oilers lack high end players, so why not take a risk on a guy like Schremp who may end up as good as Roenick? If he busts, it was still worth the risk. Under Pendergrast the Oilers have drafted a lot of safe picks and that has given them the opportunity to go after a few boom/bust type of prospects.

Back to the goalie thing though... goalies are the toughest position to predict how they will turn out. You mentioned Finley as a bust at one point, but even he has seemed to have turned his game around and can still be considered a good prospect. Many goalies don't reach their peak until their late twenties, so for us to be hopeful for two good goalie prospects is normal of any team. I don't think many of us would be as optimistic with Medvedev as our top goalie prospect though. At the moment we have every reason to be optimistic as there are scouts, and agents, that think very highly of both these goalies. If one of them turns out to their top end potential, great. If not, who know, that Bjorn Bjurling guy we picked in the 9th may come in in two years and take the league by surprise. No one knew how well Kipper would play this past season. Trade Kiprusoff for Salo last year and I think you could've easily seen exact opposite results of what happened last season. Sutter got a chance to work with him, and made a good call bringing him in. Thing is, Conklin could easily do the same thing this season.

I never wanted to get in on this as it was more just bickering than anything else, but with this last post you were taking a shot at the entire board, let alone even those who disagreed with you, and that goes against all credability you could try and claim.

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07-14-2004, 05:55 PM
  #72
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Great post Jamie, my thoughts exactly.

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07-14-2004, 05:57 PM
  #73
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You know nothing of the situation reguarding Lynch/Wyowitka...

Yet you tried to pass off this lack of knowledge as fact (that somehow Wyowitka has lost some of his lusture ).

You continually spelled Schremp with an f, and then tried to pretend you actually knew something about him... sorry, a typo I can understand, but his name isn't hard to spell, and you blew it like 4 times.

You completely contradict yourself by saying that Phaneuf is a surefire NHLer, but prospects who haven't proven anything are just that...

Your napoleonic definition was completely ill-informed...

All you did was step all over your own toes continually. You refused to acknowledge anytime you were blatantly wrong, yet continued on your crusade. It's one thing to counter arguments with facts, it's completely another to run around everything all day long. I've been in my fair share of spats, but I will always respond to an argument... because it at least gives the impression on knowing what I am talking about because it's consistant.

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Old
07-14-2004, 06:43 PM
  #74
s7ark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
There's about six posts I was going to reply to, especially that blowhard thome_26 (you really don't have a clue my friend), but I think I'll just reply to this one and have said my piece. I came here to try and have a civil discussion in regards to hockey and I get dogpiled by the ignorant and labelled a troll. Simply because I have a different view than those. I take abuse after abuse and fire back something off the cuff in response to that abuse and I get hammered for being a troll? I guess that's fair in Oilerland? Someone wants to just talk hockey and because they have a different view its okay to pile on and berate the poster until they have finally had enough and leave? Doesn't sound like a place where people are in touch with much to me. Too bad, because I was somewhat enjoying the discussion (Digger, I would have liked to gone more indepth into the agent impact on the game and where it could go). But the likes of thome_26, windowlicker, and s7ark make it extremely difficult to carry on a civil conversation and stay on topic. Nice to see those third grade educations were put to good use fellas. Good luck Oiler fans. I hope that someday your ship comes in and your prospects attain the level that you predict. It will be interesting to see another dynasty in the NHL again.
I'll agree that I got kind of short, and for that I am sorry. It was a long day at work and I made some off the cuff remarks which were inappropriate.

I'll also ignore your parting shot about 3rd grade education (I have my 5th thank you very much )

But the fact remains that your argument was very hypocritical. You started off making a point that most people on this board would disagree with, but it was at least a valid opinion with some points backing it up, and then proceeded to make the same supposed mistake you accused us of making in your assessment of the Flames prospects.

But for the most part you did try to conduct yourself to a high standard and you did liven up the board this afternoon, and for that I thank you.

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Old
07-14-2004, 07:21 PM
  #75
Oiltalk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neogeo69
Where's OutKast when you need him to slap down a troll?
I was thinking the same thing.

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