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I like our prospect list a lot!

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Old
07-14-2004, 08:28 PM
  #76
Behind Enemy Lines
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
Don't you guys think you're over doing it a bit on your prospects? If you look at your list there isn't a single bluechip in the bunch (sure fire to play prospect). There are some players with some upside (but have some serious downside as well) but not many of them look to be top line players at any position. That is not to say that they won't play, but be some what realistic. This is the same organization that has not had much success at the draft table in the past decade, so its really stretch to look at the prospect list and have an expectation of more than two or three players going on to play on a consistent basis and maybe one or two having any impact at all. Also I think its completely unreasonable to think that a player like Schrempf has even the remotest possibility of playing in the NHL next season. Give him a few years to grow and then bring him in. No use in pushing a young guy like the Oilers did with Hemsky, and risk screwing him up. Prospect development is the key to success with youngsters, and Schrempf still has plenty left to prove in junior.
Kokopeli, I agree with much of your original post and some of the points in your follow up postings. Unfortunately, I fear there is often unrealistic optimism about Oiler prospects and I was disappointed to see the mob mentality which overtook your scrutiny of Oiler draft picks and past results.

On the Phaneuf front, I most definitely agree with your assessment. I have seen lots of this kid and he has simply dominated in the WHL, Canadian Junior tryouts, and World Junior tournament. He also played a flawless 15+ minutes in his NHL exhibition debut against Edmonton. Definitely ready for the big show and a guarantee to play at the NHL level.

While I ultimately didn't agree with many points of your arguments, I feel your posts have added value by sharing how some 'outsiders' view the Oiler prospects.
There are most definitely no certainties in the Draft lottery but good fodder for a constructive exchange of opinions.

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07-15-2004, 12:56 AM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
The only thing I can say to you folks is keep hoping. That's all you have at this point. If that's what lets you sleep at night, then keep at it. Just remember though, its the same thing every year. The latest "flavor of the week" is the saviour for the club and is going to rekindle the magic of days gone by. The exact same things were said about Jason Bonsignore (the next Mario Lemieux, which always made me laugh), Steve Kelly, Boyd Devereaux, Michel Reisen, Michael Henrich, Jani Rita, etc. The big question I have is which magic? The late 80's Oilers or the disappearing act that has been Oiler first round picks for the better part of 10 years?

:lol
What did any of these guys ever do after they got drafted? Half of those guys started their decline on August of their draft year.

Here are some names that you will be hearing for a long time in the nhl, guaranteed:

Lynch - stellar season as an ahl rookie and an accomplished junior career
Greene - K Prendergast recently said that this kid could almost make the big team next year. Draws raves from everyone who has seen him play.
Woywitka - solid in the ahl, stellar in junior, the kid was bred to play hockey and he'll make it easily.

Here are some guys who have not yet lost their blue chip status although they haven't played any pro games yet and haven't obliterated the competition in junior/college:

JDD
Schremp
Pouliot

Here's a pick-me group, at least one of these guys will have a long, productive nhl career:

Brodziak (2nd liner at best, but could be a solid #3)
Niinimaki (top 6 fwd or bust)
Rita
Mikhnov
Salmo
JFJ
Z Stortini (role)

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07-15-2004, 10:33 AM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kokopeli
I think you are very wrong in your assessment of the Flames system in regards to the comparison at goaltender. The Flames have an excellent, and unhearlded, prospect in Andrei Medvedev. There are those narrow minded folk that like to poke fun at his waist line, but can you name another goaltender his age that has experienced so much success? Medvedev has THREE world championship gold medals (in his age group) as a starter. He started this year as a backup in the RSL and ended up taking the starting position away from the incumbent half way through the season. He is now poised to be a starter as a 21 year old in aruably the second best league in the world. All the guy does is continue to develop and continue to win. The hype machine may not be there like it is for Deslauriers, but he is probably the better goaltender. I guess the question is, how many national team bids did Deslauriers fail to take advantage of? If you're not the best your country has to offer how can you possibly be one of the best on the horizon? That same stigma followed another Flames prospect (Brent Krahn) around after his failure at selection camp, and he only crashed and burned at one.
I am sure, that you know nothing about current situation with Medvedev.
Next season he is going to be only the 3-rd keeper in Spartak behind former Kings prospect Alexei Volkov and veteran goalie Oleg Glebov. Trully speaking, i am hardly believe that Medvedev could be a starter even in RSL, no to mention NHL. To prove all your talent you have to posess a great character. Concerning Medvedev i cant say that he have good work ethic. Yes, the hope is always remains, but with passing of time the future for Medvedev seems for me in dark colours.


Last edited by Lord: 07-15-2004 at 12:31 PM.
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07-15-2004, 11:39 AM
  #79
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lol, the guy sure doesn't like me - pitty I'm the only one that used any kind of logical arguement - I won't appologize for being blunt with him - people who's soul purpose (intentional or not) is to raise $hit on boards deserve to be beat down IMO. The guy was hypocritical.

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07-15-2004, 03:36 PM
  #80
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Kokopeli, your overrating Phaneuf way too much. I know him personally from school, and know people he's real good friends with with that have played with him. They've all mainly said the same thing, he is a big hitter, which attracts attention when he lays out a huge hit like at the worlds. His skill set is nothing special really, definately not what your making it out to be.

It seems strange to hear people talking about this guy I know from highschool like he's already some superstar defensemen in the league.


i know this is written bad, i suck at writing but im sure you can see the point if you try hard enough.

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07-15-2004, 06:37 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by jiggyman
Kokopeli, your overrating Phaneuf way too much. I know him personally from school, and know people he's real good friends with with that have played with him. They've all mainly said the same thing, he is a big hitter, which attracts attention when he lays out a huge hit like at the worlds. His skill set is nothing special really, definately not what your making it out to be.

It seems strange to hear people talking about this guy I know from highschool like he's already some superstar defensemen in the league.


i know this is written bad, i suck at writing but im sure you can see the point if you try hard enough.
Just because a few of his friends think he's just a big hitter and nothing... this being HIGH SCHOOL FRIENDS... he's now overrated?

Hmm... I think I'll take the pro's opinion on this, both HF and THN ranking him No 2, over a few HS friends. Hey, I went to school with Mike Egener. They guy's totally overrated, I went to school with him and I think he's a bust.

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07-15-2004, 08:41 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiggyman
Kokopeli, your overrating Phaneuf way too much. I know him personally from school, and know people he's real good friends with with that have played with him. They've all mainly said the same thing, he is a big hitter, which attracts attention when he lays out a huge hit like at the worlds. His skill set is nothing special really, definately not what your making it out to be.

It seems strange to hear people talking about this guy I know from highschool like he's already some superstar defensemen in the league.


i know this is written bad, i suck at writing but im sure you can see the point if you try hard enough.
You wouldn't have happened to have gone to Harry Ainlay would you?

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07-15-2004, 08:59 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Just because a few of his friends think he's just a big hitter and nothing... this being HIGH SCHOOL FRIENDS... he's now overrated?

Hmm... I think I'll take the pro's opinion on this, both HF and THN ranking him No 2, over a few HS friends. Hey, I went to school with Mike Egener. They guy's totally overrated, I went to school with him and I think he's a bust.
Phaneuf will be an nhl'er but it's way too early to start counting the Norris and Conn Smythe trophies. Jani Rita was the top ahl prospect according to thn two years ago and about 100 people have passed him since.

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07-15-2004, 09:06 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Malmo_Mike
You wouldn't have happened to have gone to Harry Ainlay would you?

Hey Malmo, I just noticed your name. I grew up in Malmo. 114st and 46 ave

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07-15-2004, 10:47 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Oi'll say!
Phaneuf will be an nhl'er but it's way too early to start counting the Norris and Conn Smythe trophies. Jani Rita was the top ahl prospect according to thn two years ago and about 100 people have passed him since.
Anyone counting Norris's and such are stupid. Ovechekin and Crosby and maybe Bouwmeester may be an exception, but Phaneuf? No. But you can't deny he's a top rated prospect, and arguably the best (outside of this years draft class).

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07-15-2004, 10:53 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
But you can't deny he's a top rated prospect, and arguably the best (outside of this years draft class).
Oh, no doubt about that. As a prospect, he's right up there.

It'll be interesting to see how those 3 dmen (Phaneuf/Coburn/Suter) stack up against each other in the coming years.

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07-15-2004, 11:03 PM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Anyone counting Norris's and such are stupid. Ovechekin and Crosby and maybe Bouwmeester may be an exception, but Phaneuf? No. But you can't deny he's a top rated prospect, and arguably the best (outside of this years draft class).
Phaneuf is a wicked prospect, I definetly wish he was one of the Oilers prospects. Not sure if he'll ever be as good as Steven's like I've heard elsewhere but he's still a guy I'd be shocked to see not have a lengthy NHL career.

EDIT: Just thought of a question for you guy's. Is there any prospect in our charts right now you'd rather have than Phaneuf? To me, it's a tough call as all around he's a better prospect than anyone we have, BUT, we have good depth as far as young D goes(Brewere, Semenov, Bergeron, Lynch, Wowyitka, Greene), but not a whole lot in goal (JDD and DD) or as far as high end offensive prospects (Schremp). So none of that, "yes, so I could deal him for such and such" but is there anyone from our prospect list you'd keep over him?


Last edited by Jamie: 07-15-2004 at 11:08 PM.
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07-15-2004, 11:06 PM
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Anyone counting Norris's and such are stupid. Ovechekin and Crosby and maybe Bouwmeester may be an exception, but Phaneuf? No. But you can't deny he's a top rated prospect, and arguably the best (outside of this years draft class).
No doubt Dion is one of the top prospects, but if you look back through this thread you'll see that koko has him pegged as the best d-man outside the nhl, bar none.

As a ferinstance, Cam Barker scored 20 more points and had a higher +/- than Dion in the dub last year. We both know that doesn't automatically make him a better player but you have to admit, Dion isn't a lock right now by any stretch of the imagination. It may well prove to be the case some day but koko is going overboard.

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07-15-2004, 11:19 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Jamie
Just thought of a question for you guy's. Is there any prospect in our charts right now you'd rather have than Phaneuf? To me, it's a tough call as all around he's a better prospect than anyone we have, BUT, we have good depth as far as young D goes(Brewere, Semenov, Bergeron, Lynch, Wowyitka, Greene), but not a whole lot in goal (JDD and DD) or as far as high end offensive prospects (Schremp). So none of that, "yes, so I could deal him for such and such" but is there anyone from our prospect list you'd keep over him?
Honestly?

At this juncture I'd be hard pressed to pick any single Oiler prospect over Phaneuf...it's kinda tough though, I'd like to see more of him and judge for myself how dominant he really is. He could be the next Scott Stevens...or he could be the next Ulanov or Marchment (heck, even Marchment averaged over a PPG in his final two OHL seasons).

IMO he has two big questions to answer:

1) Can his offensive game translate to NHL production?

2) On the defensive side of things, can he do more than lay out the big hit? Can he provide NHL level defense?

Time will tell.

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07-15-2004, 11:36 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Jamie
Phaneuf is a wicked prospect, I definetly wish he was one of the Oilers prospects. Not sure if he'll ever be as good as Steven's like I've heard elsewhere but he's still a guy I'd be shocked to see not have a lengthy NHL career.

EDIT: Just thought of a question for you guy's. Is there any prospect in our charts right now you'd rather have than Phaneuf? To me, it's a tough call as all around he's a better prospect than anyone we have, BUT, we have good depth as far as young D goes(Brewere, Semenov, Bergeron, Lynch, Wowyitka, Greene), but not a whole lot in goal (JDD and DD) or as far as high end offensive prospects (Schremp). So none of that, "yes, so I could deal him for such and such" but is there anyone from our prospect list you'd keep over him?
Nope

You know... I'm going to get burned at the stake here, but I really don't like your set of prospects. I'm a huge Woywitka and Lynch fan, but neither are top notch prospects, and both of which were displaced by a 17 year old Phaneuf in Red Deer when both were overagers. I like Semenov, but I don't know where to rank him. Brewer and Bergeron are hugely overrated IMO. As for goal, I like alot of the reports about Devan Dubyunk, but he seemed to be general concensus 3rd in the draft, so I don't know - I have no comment, I've never seen him play. And your forwards... attitude is huge for a prospects. Aspects like strength, skating and such can be worked on, attitude can't. With all due respect, I wouldn't have touched Schremp until mid 2nd round at earliest (see: Patrick O'Sullivan last year).

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07-15-2004, 11:44 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Aspects like strength, skating and such can be worked on, attitude can't.
Respectfully disagree. IMO attitude isn't some immovable attribute that can't be improved past a certain age.

Not saying that it'll always improve with age, but given the right environment and motivation I think it can.

Besides, personally I think Schremp's attitude issues are being blown up to a much larger degree than they actually are.

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07-15-2004, 11:48 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by dawgbone

I wouldn't rush Schrempf either... considering the guy is a former basketball player for the sonics...
I don't know, Detlef could be the one shot scorer the Oilers need.

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07-15-2004, 11:57 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Digger12
Respectfully disagree. IMO attitude isn't some immovable attribute that can't be improved past a certain age.

Not saying that it'll always improve with age, but given the right environment and motivation I think it can.

Besides, personally I think Schremp's attitude issues are being blown up to a much larger degree than they actually are.
Who knows.

I've never talked with Schremp or his family or his coaches, neither has yours. The only thing we can base it on is from media reports and indirectly all the teams that passed him.

Unless you know something I don't, I'm taking the reports for face value, and I can't see how its blown out of proportion.

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07-16-2004, 12:09 AM
  #94
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I don't know, Detlef could be the one shot scorer the Oilers need.
He certainly put up more points than anyone the Oilers currently have.

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07-16-2004, 12:11 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Unless you know something I don't, I'm taking the reports for face value, and I can't see how its blown out of proportion.
From the reports I've seen, his teammates don't seem to have any problems with him. He needs to grow up a bit, but there's very few 17 and 18 year olds that don't.

Considering the lack of depth in this draft, I don't see the point of waiting until the 2nd round to grab a guy with his talent.

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07-16-2004, 12:15 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Digger12
From the reports I've seen, his teammates don't seem to have any problems with him. He needs to grow up a bit, but there's very few 17 and 18 year olds that don't.

Considering the lack of depth in this draft, I don't see the point of waiting until the 2nd round to grab a guy with his talent.
Would his teammates come forth and speak their mind? Doubtful.

You know... he is 17/18 yes, but his attitude sticks out like a sore thumb. Everybody is trying to make their best impression on scouts and NHL organizations, Schremp by all reports didn't seem to even care, and was throwing f-bombs around everywhere. As well, getting left off Team USA's WJ team has to be a cause for concern.

BTW, if you guys didn't catch it, apperently the Oilers had Chuko ahead of Schremp, so I'm guessing the Oilers weren't as high on him as many of you think (unless they had Chuko high). Not to get into a Flame war or anything, but if the Flames didn't take him, Chuko would have been donning an Oiler jersey.

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07-16-2004, 12:16 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Kokopeli
I appreciate your candor, but please feel free to list those players that are considered to be better defensive prospects than Dion Phaneuf. Mr. Phaneuf surpassed every single prospect at his position with his performance over the past year and a half. He is considered by many to be the best defensive prospect not having play in the NHL.
But I thought if a prospect wasn't signed yet, he didn't count. Phaneuf isn't signed. Heck if Calgary does sign him by the end of the year, he goes back in the draft.

And in regards to being the best in the draft. Uhh, two defensemen were taken ahead of him. He has definitely surpassed Braydon Coburn. But according to many, it's debatable that he has surpassed Ryan Suter who is getting just as glowing reviews playing in college.

But since neither is signed, I guess Lynch and Wowitka are better

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07-16-2004, 12:27 AM
  #98
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Which reports

There are many.

1. He is well like and respected by his teammates and is hardworking.

2. I have also read reports that his agent was more responsible for this demand for a trade than he is.

3. Every report NEVER questions his talent, they just say he has a bad attitude.

I would be more concerned if he was a cancer in the dressing room or the reports were he really didn't want to play or he had no heart.

Bad attitude? Messier had a bad attitude, his father was too controlling. From what I understand he is still an arrogant jerk but he is great in the dressing room and obviously loves the game and we all know how talented he is/was.

When you look at players like Bonsignore, Daigle the reports were that they didn't like to work and their heart wasn't in it.

These are not the same reports you hear about Schremp.

As for prospects, there is always something that is negative. Pheneuf has limited offensive upside according to many of the reports I read.

I like Pheneuf but beyond him I don't see a lot of depth in the Calgary prospects. Edmonton probably doesn't have a lot of star power in their prospects but have a lot more depth. Now that above statement has an asterisk IMO. Schremp potentially has more star power than many prospects. Notice the word potentially, but you could use that word for every prospect.

We can all talk all day about what we think is going to happen to the prospects and all of us will have some legitimate points but at the end of the day it is all conjecture. Rita was listed exactly where Pheneuf is now but look what happened. I am not saying this will happen to Pheneuf, but just because a player is highly rated does not mean they will always succeed.

I think Pheneuf will have a long and solid career, and most of us do, none of us has really questioned that. Schremp is a question mark but at pick 25, not a major risk especially in a weak draft. Most or not all of the players picked around that spot had question marks.

All the scouts that I read say that Schremp was one of the most talented guys in the draft, whether he will put it all together is the question.

But Splatman where I find that Calgary fans arguments fall down is they use scouts and ratings to say that Pheneuf is going to be a great player but almost all the scouting organizations and magazines list Edmontons prospects as very deep but both you and kokopeli say you don't like the prospects.

In this case as you said I would go with the reports I have read about the Oilers prospects at face value until it is proven otherwise. I think at the end of the day more prospects from the Oilers list will have an impact on our team than on the prospects on Calgary's list.

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07-16-2004, 12:27 AM
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
BTW, if you guys didn't catch it, apperently the Oilers had Chuko ahead of Schremp, so I'm guessing the Oilers weren't as high on him as many of you think (unless they had Chuko high). Not to get into a Flame war or anything, but if the Flames didn't take him, Chuko would have been donning an Oiler jersey.
Not sure where you heard this. May or may not be true.
However, I am quite sure if there was a poll of Oiler fans having to choose between Schremp and Chuko, Schremp would likely garner far more votes. I, for one, am glad it worked out the way it did.

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07-16-2004, 12:32 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Splatman Phanutier
Would his teammates come forth and speak their mind? Doubtful.

You know... he is 17/18 yes, but his attitude sticks out like a sore thumb. Everybody is trying to make their best impression on scouts and NHL organizations, Schremp by all reports didn't seem to even care, and was throwing f-bombs around everywhere. As well, getting left off Team USA's WJ team has to be a cause for concern.

BTW, if you guys didn't catch it, apperently the Oilers had Chuko ahead of Schremp, so I'm guessing the Oilers weren't as high on him as many of you think (unless they had Chuko high). Not to get into a Flame war or anything, but if the Flames didn't take him, Chuko would have been donning an Oiler jersey.
Yeah maybe, but that doesn't take away from the argument that Schremp may be a great player. Though I would like to see a link from you that shows this to be the case.

Chucko from all reports is a safe pick but he is going to take a long time to develop and I don't know about his offensive upside.

I would rather the Oilers picked Schremp instead of Chucko. Of course they took a chance but list me one player picked in the 20's that didn't have major question marks?

There isn't one, so why not take a chance on the guy that obviously has tonnes of talent and may have an attitude problem at the age of 17

An attitude problem at the age of 17, inconceivable.


Last edited by hockeyaddict101: 07-16-2004 at 12:37 AM.
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