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Old
05-11-2011, 04:36 PM
  #276
Millhaus
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
You can define success any way you want. My definition is championships, but if you want a more lenient definition, be my guest. If you want to make a case that Wilson, Cassidy, Hanlon and Boudreau have had successful tenures as Caps coach, go for it. I think you face an uphill battle.
I think the expectations for any coach in any sport are very different depending on the circumstances.

Nobody expected Hanlon to lead the team to a championship. He was supposed to steward them through a complete tear down and the early years of a rebuild. Wilson took an old and not overly talented team to the finals. You expected Cassidy to win a championship in his first season? Because the team he coached the second year was destined to crash and burn seeing as they only had 2 actual NHL defensemen. And Boudreau turned the team that wasn't turning the corner under Hanlon completely around and has been one of the best teams in the league ever since.

I definitely think it is time to turn to someone else behind the bench to try to take the next step to playoff power also but I don't see the 4 coaches of the Caps under McPhee as failures simply because they didn't win championships.

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05-11-2011, 05:26 PM
  #277
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A. You have no idea how long and how hard a look Leonsis and Patrick have taken at McPhee's performance. Unless the only sign of that hard look is firing him.

B. You have no idea what level of accountability McPhee has been held to unless accountability means fired.

C. The coaches. Wilson. Took them to the finals. Had a lenthy run as coach in San Jose. Having a lenthy run in Toronto. Was head coach of team USA at the past Olympics and gave a stacked team Canada fits. Seems to me Wilson is a pretty good hockey coach. Cassidy was hired by Leonsis. Hanlon: Do you know what the budget was for that hire and how many experienced coaches were willing to coach a certain last place team for a small paycheck?
Accountability DOES mean getting fired if the job isn't getting done. McPhee has been here a long, long time and they haven't won diddly. As for the coaches, Wilson's post-Caps career is completely irrelevant. The issue isn't whether Wilson is or is not a good coach. He is. The issue is whether he was successful as a coach of the Caps. Getting to the finals and getting swept is nice, but not the ultimate success, as shown that McPhee fired him a year or two later. We don't know who hired Cassidy. We do know that he didn't do a very good job. Hanlon had a lack of talent and the results to match. Not successful here. You can make excuses for McPhee all you want. The bottom line is that these guys were not successful coaches here and Boudreau appears to be headed in the same direction. How many strikes does McPhee get?

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05-11-2011, 05:30 PM
  #278
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So there are 29 unsuccessful coaches in the NHL every year? I guess there will be plenty of guys available soon in that case.

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05-11-2011, 05:39 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
I think the expectations for any coach in any sport are very different depending on the circumstances.

Nobody expected Hanlon to lead the team to a championship. He was supposed to steward them through a complete tear down and the early years of a rebuild. Wilson took an old and not overly talented team to the finals. You expected Cassidy to win a championship in his first season? Because the team he coached the second year was destined to crash and burn seeing as they only had 2 actual NHL defensemen. And Boudreau turned the team that wasn't turning the corner under Hanlon completely around and has been one of the best teams in the league ever since.

I definitely think it is time to turn to someone else behind the bench to try to take the next step to playoff power also but I don't see the 4 coaches of the Caps under McPhee as failures simply because they didn't win championships.
There is one measure of success in the NHL and that is winning the Cup. Cassidy's teams WERE in fact expected to win championships. Arguing that McPhee didn't bring in sufficient talent around Jagr may be true, but is hardly a great argument for McPhee keeping his job. And Cassidy has never gotten another shot at an NHL job which is surely an indication of how his tenure was viewed league-wide. Also, I think it would have come as a surprise to Hanlon that he was only supposed to be here during the early years of the rebuild. He was canned on Thanksgiving that season because he lost the team; that wasn't a case of planned obsolesence. As for Boudreau, all of his regular season "accomplishments" pale in comparison to his playoff flameouts. If he were fired tomorrow, I think it would be difficult to make a good argument that he was successful during his tenure here.

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05-11-2011, 05:41 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
So there are 29 unsuccessful coaches in the NHL every year? I guess there will be plenty of guys available soon in that case.
The only reason coaches who don't win Cups in a given year keep their jobs is because management has reason to believe that those coaches can lead their team to a Cup in the foreseeable future. This is the NHL, EVERYTHING revolves around winning the Cup.

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05-11-2011, 05:51 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
The only reason coaches who don't win Cups in a given year keep their jobs is because management has reason to believe that those coaches can lead their team to a Cup in the foreseeable future. This is the NHL, EVERYTHING revolves around winning the Cup.
You're not even remotely close to correct. But that's no surprise. You tend to stray pretty far from reality most of the time.

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05-11-2011, 05:53 PM
  #282
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
Accountability DOES mean getting fired if the job isn't getting done. McPhee has been here a long, long time and they haven't won diddly. As for the coaches, Wilson's post-Caps career is completely irrelevant. The issue isn't whether Wilson is or is not a good coach. He is. The issue is whether he was successful as a coach of the Caps. Getting to the finals and getting swept is nice, but not the ultimate success, as shown that McPhee fired him a year or two later. We don't know who hired Cassidy. We do know that he didn't do a very good job. Hanlon had a lack of talent and the results to match. Not successful here. You can make excuses for McPhee all you want. The bottom line is that these guys were not successful coaches here and Boudreau appears to be headed in the same direction. How many strikes does McPhee get?
the caps have never had a successful coach then and every gm ever in the caps chair has been a failure. looking at the players the same way you get guys like larry murphy who were to his era what mike green is now and upon being dispatched out of town on a rail with wooping upon every return, he found his way to the hall of fame. perhaps saving the woops and keeping the player might have paid dividends down the road. we wont know.

i wonder what you think of trotz and ruff.

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05-11-2011, 05:57 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
the caps have never had a successful coach then and every gm ever in the caps chair has been a failure. looking at the players the same way you get guys like larry murphy who were to his era what mike green is now and upon being dispatched out of town on a rail with wooping upon every return, he found his way to the hall of fame. perhaps saving the woops and keeping the player might have paid dividends down the road. we wont know.

i wonder what you think of trotz and ruff.
The Caps are a losing franchise. 37 years and not a sniff of a Cup? That's futility by any definition. Is that news to you?

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05-11-2011, 05:59 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
You're not even remotely close to correct. But that's no surprise. You tend to stray pretty far from reality most of the time.
So now you are disputing that the idea in the NHL is to win the Cup? Okay, guy. How's that Sean Miller hire going?

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05-11-2011, 06:04 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
So now you are disputing that the idea in the NHL is to win the Cup? Okay, guy. How's that Sean Miller hire going?
No, I'm disputing the fact that the only reason coaches aren't fired is that management believes they can win a Cup in the future. That's absurd.

And what does information that I relayed from 980 have to do with the hiring and firing of coaches in the NHL?

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05-11-2011, 06:08 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
No, I'm disputing the fact that the only reason coaches aren't fired is that management believes they can win a Cup in the future. That's absurd.

And what does information that I relayed from 980 have to do with the hiring and firing of coaches in the NHL?
It has to do with general credibility. And what's absurd is your disputing that the job of an NHL coach isn't to win the Cup.

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05-11-2011, 06:11 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
It has to do with general credibility. And what's absurd is your disputing that the job of an NHL coach isn't to win the Cup.
Again, it was information relayed from 980. Has nothing to do with my credibility. Only speaks to the credibility of that station.

The job of Tom Renney (and numerous others) isn't to win a Cup. The job of an NHL coach is to get the most out of the players they're given, whether that's through player development or winning games.

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05-11-2011, 06:16 PM
  #288
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In regards to Devils, they didn't need a superb coach with Scott Stevens as their Captain. Sure, they had some good coaches, Lemaire, Robinson, and Burns, but they didn't need to motivate those Devil teams. Lou is and always will be way better than GMGM. He made the moves he needed to get his team competitive or over the hump. Abe if you can read this, up yours for letting us lose Stevens.

Go Caps!!

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05-11-2011, 06:21 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
Again, it was information relayed from 980. Has nothing to do with my credibility. Only speaks to the credibility of that station.

The job of Tom Renney (and numerous others) isn't to win a Cup. The job of an NHL coach is to get the most out of the players they're given, whether that's through player development or winning games.
The purpose of developing players is to win a Cup, right? No GM is going to hire a coach who he doesn't believe is capable of reaching that goal. THAT is how both GMs AND coaches are measured.

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05-11-2011, 06:38 PM
  #290
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So you think Edmonton hired Pat Quinn with the expectation that he was going to win a Cup with them?

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05-11-2011, 07:01 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
It has to do with general credibility. And what's absurd is your disputing that the job of an NHL coach isn't to win the Cup.
actually that is fairly easy to dispute. rebuilding teams have a very different objective than contending teams. they are all hired to achieve the immediate goals of their employers. glen hanlon's job at being hired to coach the capitals was to develope the young high end draft picks and acquired prospects at the nhl level. he was not hired to win a cup.

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05-11-2011, 07:09 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by dpj0122 View Post
The purpose of developing players is to win a Cup, right? No GM is going to hire a coach who he doesn't believe is capable of reaching that goal. THAT is how both GMs AND coaches are measured.
gm's do hire coaches with other than winning a cup with that coach in mind. plain and simple. yes, player developement is part of the plan to win the cup, but hanlon was not hired to land a cup in ovechkin's rookie season. he was hired to teach ovechkin how to be an nhl player.

the rebuilding coach is often not the playoffs coach. their job is often quite different. boudreau is the playoffs coach and to that he has failed so far. that doesnt mean that hanlon was hired to win a cup. its just not the case.

i will remind you also that many to most coaches that expect to win a cup right away have zero interest in coaching a team full of young players, a last place team starting a rebuild. they are just not going to take the job.

leave this at boudreau is about winning a cup and a failure and therefore he and anyone having to do with him being in the job is a failure and you have a case to be made. going where you have been going, though, is a loser. give it up

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05-11-2011, 10:12 PM
  #293
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If GMGM doesn't fire Boudreau I want him gone. Plain and simple.

The answer to this year absolutely cannot be: hire a new assistant or two. New players won't save us from the fact that we are getting out coached consistently in the playoffs. The results speak for themselves, and I will be furious if heads don't roll. Round two was an abomination after last years collapse. Totally unacceptable and anyone who argues it needs to have their head examined.

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05-11-2011, 10:27 PM
  #294
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My gripe with GMGM is that he said any moves will be internal ones. If he intends to infuse more kids in our already young team, its not a recipe to win a Cup. Matter of fact, it would almost be as to say we're still rebuilding.

Hopefully he realizes the team needs grit not present in our system.

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05-12-2011, 03:48 AM
  #295
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As of Dec. 2008,

the mean tenure of an NHL coach was 2.58 seasons
&
the median tenure of an NHL coach was 1.37 seasons.

Just for fun, you can run down the Dec. 2008 list of head coaches and ask yourself how many teams still have the same guy running the show. It appears to be fewer than half.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...8-COACHES.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NHL_head_coaches

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05-12-2011, 09:15 AM
  #296
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
So you think Edmonton hired Pat Quinn with the expectation that he was going to win a Cup with them?
They hired him with the expectation that he could lead them to a Cup over the course of his contract. Of course.

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05-12-2011, 09:17 AM
  #297
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actually that is fairly easy to dispute. rebuilding teams have a very different objective than contending teams. they are all hired to achieve the immediate goals of their employers. glen hanlon's job at being hired to coach the capitals was to develope the young high end draft picks and acquired prospects at the nhl level. he was not hired to win a cup.
That's ridiculous. He was hired to develop the players leading to winning a Cup. As I said, I think it would come as a big surprise to Hanlon that he was the interim hire that you claim.

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05-12-2011, 09:21 AM
  #298
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gm's do hire coaches with other than winning a cup with that coach in mind. plain and simple. yes, player developement is part of the plan to win the cup, but hanlon was not hired to land a cup in ovechkin's rookie season. he was hired to teach ovechkin how to be an nhl player.

the rebuilding coach is often not the playoffs coach. their job is often quite different. boudreau is the playoffs coach and to that he has failed so far. that doesnt mean that hanlon was hired to win a cup. its just not the case.

i will remind you also that many to most coaches that expect to win a cup right away have zero interest in coaching a team full of young players, a last place team starting a rebuild. they are just not going to take the job.

leave this at boudreau is about winning a cup and a failure and therefore he and anyone having to do with him being in the job is a failure and you have a case to be made. going where you have been going, though, is a loser. give it up
Disagree. The entire idea of player development is to lead to winning a Cup. You can't separate the two.

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05-12-2011, 09:27 AM
  #299
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They hired him with the expectation that he could lead them to a Cup over the course of his contract. Of course.
So they thought he could win the Cup in one year?

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05-12-2011, 09:39 AM
  #300
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So they thought he could win the Cup in one year?
This is a very amusing (and very lopsided) exchange.

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