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Old
05-16-2011, 12:04 PM
  #376
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
I think there are so many different avenues that can work that its hard to say whether they have the right idea. Til they score a cup there is no way of knowing for sure if they know how. I think its fair to suggest that some teams win without knowing how they did it and that is seen by their inability to continue to threaten after they won.

I will be interested to see where Chicago goes the next couple of years. What does Carolina know? They either go far in the playoffs or miss them entirely and miss more often than make them.

Why do think about Leonsis is that his business has come as a result of a policy of consistancy. His does not have a rep at any level of leaving a trail of dead, burnt bodies in his path.

It appears to me that Leonsis thinks that he has a better chance of scoring a cup with his current crew than by canning his leadership and turning his roster upsidedown to take on a new direction.

I also know this about him. When he bought the team, he wanted to turn the page. He wanted nothing to do with the Abe Pollin Capitals including their hideous playoff history. Now that history and reputation has been restored in strenth and he has to find a way to work thru it. His team is a choker team just like the great Caps teams of the 80's.

The Caps are the Sharks. What have the Sharks done to get out from under their rep? At somepoint they have replaced their coach and their gm, but have not really changed the overall direction of the their team.
Interesting thought. I think we will all agree that the one approach that must remain static is building through the draft.

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05-16-2011, 12:16 PM
  #377
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This may be a weird thing to say, but to be perfectly honest, I think that this upcoming draft is going to say a good deal about McPhee and the organization. They're, what, 26th again? I think the type of player they select (perhaps Musil, Biggs, shame Kefblom is catapulted into the top 10) will go a long way to determining what trajectory this club is planning to take in the next three years or so. Another sub-200lb. skill guy and I'm not sure I'll still feel as comfortable with McPhee as I do now.

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05-16-2011, 12:24 PM
  #378
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One thing that's getting me is that we haven't even been close. Look at the Stanley Cup winners since the lockout and how they did in the previous season - they all at least made their conference finals - something we haven't done yet.

2010 Winner: Blackhawks; Previous Year: Lost to DET in WCF
2009 Winner: Penguins; Previous Year: Lost to DET in SCF
2008 Winner: Detroit; Previous Year: Lost to ANA in WCF
2007 Winner: Anaheim; Previous Year: Lost to EDM in WCF

The closest we've come is getting 7 out of 16 of the needed wins (44%). Judging by recent results we likely have at least one major hurdle to clear before we can mentally get it done.

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05-16-2011, 12:36 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by HTFN View Post
This may be a weird thing to say, but to be perfectly honest, I think that this upcoming draft is going to say a good deal about McPhee and the organization. They're, what, 26th again? I think the type of player they select (perhaps Musil, Biggs, shame Kefblom is catapulted into the top 10) will go a long way to determining what trajectory this club is planning to take in the next three years or so. Another sub-200lb. skill guy and I'm not sure I'll still feel as comfortable with McPhee as I do now.
why is that? mcphee selected a quality nhl player late in the first round where most players taken before and after him are not close to being nhl players. would you rather he go the pokoluk route instead. take a run at a big, physical type player that might be less likely to make it in the nhl at all or take the small, skilled player that would be a star?

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05-16-2011, 01:44 PM
  #380
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The Caps are the Sharks. What have the Sharks done to get out from under their rep? At somepoint they have replaced their coach and their gm, but have not really changed the overall direction of the their team.
Exactly, right on. If you fire the coach & gm, there is no need to change the direction of the team, keep the team together and build on it with new eyes & brains in charge.

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05-16-2011, 02:19 PM
  #381
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there are differences. wilson has been gm there since 2003. so, he took over a developed team and is in his 8th playoff run. he fired wilson after 5 years and a .609 winning percentage. the current coach is in his 3rd playoff run.

its not like those changes brought the sharks instant success.

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05-16-2011, 02:20 PM
  #382
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Exactly, right on. If you fire the coach & gm, there is no need to change the direction of the team, keep the team together and build on it with new eyes & brains in charge.
Better yet, not that I'm anxious to fire McPhee, but you have to wonder who's more responsible for finding guys late like MaJo, Carlson, Varly, Green, and Nuevy. If you could get a new GM but keep the same scouting department you could end up with the proverbial "having your cake, but eating it to." Besides McPhee doesn't know the game

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05-16-2011, 02:23 PM
  #383
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unless you got a gm that traded off those draft picks and mcphee landed another gm job and hired away the best of the scouting staff. for every action is an equal and opposite reaction.

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05-16-2011, 02:37 PM
  #384
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Is there any truth to the statement, increased scouting budgets results in better drafting. If so, GM and his scouts can be replaced. Ted has deep pockets and no scout cap. Good hockey players cant hide. Many here seem to have a keen knowledge of prospects around the world. As a hobby. George was a bit obsessed with the WHL guys. Maybe thats where his only scout was. There Sweden and Russia.

He has to figure out his coaching situation. He loves him some Bruce but Bruce didnt get the job done. Sure George had him running with a bunch of kids, but the kids werent our problem.

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05-16-2011, 04:29 PM
  #385
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Sure they do, Leonsis in particular. What we don't hear about all that much is the process of becoming a champion. It's a goal...but seemingly a somewhat distant one because I'm not sure they understand what it takes to get there. There's too much stock put into luck as a deciding factor and that's the mentality of a franchise that's in some disorder mentally. There are plenty of things this franchise can control in terms of the process that they either choose not to or discount the importance of for some puzzling reason.

When your goal is to become "generationally competitive", there is no particular urgency to win a championship in a given year. THAT, in and of itself, is a problem with their approach.................

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05-16-2011, 05:49 PM
  #386
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Originally Posted by blokeyhighlander View Post
One thing that's getting me is that we haven't even been close. Look at the Stanley Cup winners since the lockout and how they did in the previous season - they all at least made their conference finals - something we haven't done yet.

2010 Winner: Blackhawks; Previous Year: Lost to DET in WCF
2009 Winner: Penguins; Previous Year: Lost to DET in SCF
2008 Winner: Detroit; Previous Year: Lost to ANA in WCF
2007 Winner: Anaheim; Previous Year: Lost to EDM in WCF

The closest we've come is getting 7 out of 16 of the needed wins (44%). Judging by recent results we likely have at least one major hurdle to clear before we can mentally get it done.
We would have made the SCF had we beaten the Pens in that Game 7, but that's all would coulda shoulda.

I have close to zero optimism about next year but the teams playing right now except the Sharks haven't made the conference finals at all since Tampa won it all b4 the lockout.

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05-16-2011, 07:37 PM
  #387
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generation plan eh.

What are George's best deals, or best picks. Whats at the top of his resume. Dumping Nylander, Eminger for Carlson. Feds. Drafting Semin, Laich for Bondra, Huet not signing Huet. Fighting the Blackhawks team in preseason. Bruce. You want to have a GM debate, it starts with looking at his biggest moves.

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05-17-2011, 08:53 AM
  #388
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generation plan eh.

What are George's best deals, or best picks. Whats at the top of his resume. Dumping Nylander, Eminger for Carlson. Feds. Drafting Semin, Laich for Bondra, Huet not signing Huet. Fighting the Blackhawks team in preseason. Bruce. You want to have a GM debate, it starts with looking at his biggest moves.
Why is that? I'm trying to think of big moves made by GMs of recent champs and am not really coming up with that much. A lot of the success of recent teams is due to quality drafting. Check out the core of each of the last 3 Cup champions and almost all were raised in house.

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05-17-2011, 09:31 AM
  #389
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Why is that? I'm trying to think of big moves made by GMs of recent champs and am not really coming up with that much. A lot of the success of recent teams is due to quality drafting. Check out the core of each of the last 3 Cup champions and almost all were raised in house.
I realized after I made that post, that many times passing on a trade or prospect is a great move in itself. So, you have to grade based on what you see to keep it simple.

Maybe the recent cup winners just landed great picks because of crap years landed them in great drafting position. Anyone with an internet connection could have learned the best player available and made those same picks. Would you have selected these guys? Sid Malkin Kane Toews. Detroit is almost in a class by itself.

So that tells me by selling off and getting years of top picks, George should be real close to a cup by now - look at all his great picks. Yet I think we are flat lining at best.

I have said it all along, Ovi dropped in his lap and he hasnt adjust his plan to ride the prime years coat tail of what can easily be the best player George ever landed. And the caps ever had.

Where does one start to grade a GM? Having great draft position in deep drafts yet never getting close to a cup with those players eventually is a red flag. It seems how to fill the holes around those no brainer top picks is a place to do some grading. George has built a team that lacks playoff grade intensity.

What do you think his best moves made are?

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05-17-2011, 11:40 AM
  #390
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I realized after I made that post, that many times passing on a trade or prospect is a great move in itself. So, you have to grade based on what you see to keep it simple.

Maybe the recent cup winners just landed great picks because of crap years landed them in great drafting position. Anyone with an internet connection could have learned the best player available and made those same picks. Would you have selected these guys? Sid Malkin Kane Toews. Detroit is almost in a class by itself.

So that tells me by selling off and getting years of top picks, George should be real close to a cup by now - look at all his great picks. Yet I think we are flat lining at best.

I have said it all along, Ovi dropped in his lap and he hasnt adjust his plan to ride the prime years coat tail of what can easily be the best player George ever landed. And the caps ever had.

Where does one start to grade a GM? Having great draft position in deep drafts yet never getting close to a cup with those players eventually is a red flag. It seems how to fill the holes around those no brainer top picks is a place to do some grading. George has built a team that lacks playoff grade intensity.

What do you think his best moves made are?
I don't really disagree with any of that nor your list of his better moves in the earlier post. I was just disagreeing with the notion that the most weight in grading a GM's work should be given to making big moves. It always seems like the little moves are the ones that seem to pay off. Detroit trading for Stuart in '08. The Pens getting Guerin in '09. One trend that I can see is having players on ELC or cap-circumventing deals are key in being able to surround your core with a good supporting cast.

GMGM has made similar moves in the past, yet the team still failed. I know the Bolts haven't gone all the way, but getting Huet was akin to the Bolts grabbing Rolie. Feds and Arnott fall into the same class as Guerin. Adding Hannan was similar to Stuart. The moves that failed seemed to be the bigger ones. Hossa to Pittsburgh at the deadline. Hossa in Detroit at full price.

The Caps weren't able to get it done with their first group of ELC core players and haven't really had any of those cap-friendly deals to speak of. I see an opportunity with the next wave of cheap youngsters if the Caps can fill out the roster with more of those guys who ramp up their intensity come playoff time. The Max Talbots, Travis Moens, and Sean Bergenheims of the world.

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05-17-2011, 12:00 PM
  #391
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Thanks for posting your thoughts Stu. It is odd, it seems like our bottom line players arent carrying their playoff weight. But its tough to single them out when top line guys are no shows, or simply ineffective.

I am starting to think that grading a GM needs to be weighed heavily towards playoff success after having been granted a full rebuild and great picks for years.

I am also thinking the choice of a head coach, and deciding when to keep or kan the coach, should also be heavily weighed. No coach coaches forever. When to cut the cord. This team looked like crap for much of the year yet bruce got assurances. facepalm. I almost feel like Bruce went to a boring defensive hockey post bye bye flash in spite of George. While players developed, Bruce looked like a lost rookie. How hard is it to preach defense. I always played strong D and never had to be told to do it, in my illustrious roller career. I am a old school caps fan, that means I appreciate solid D. Its in my DNA. Yet getting the guys to play D was really his only big accomplishment. The Rangers series was good but nothing to rah rah over after our Tampa showing. He finally convinced Sarge to pinch in and hit a little. Rah. Speaking of which, scrutinizing first round picks should carry extra weight. Sarge was drafted ahead of Green. That tells me George thinks he should be better than Green. Thats gradeable.

I dunno, its not a perfect science, grading a GM.


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05-17-2011, 12:51 PM
  #392
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Originally Posted by Langway View Post
Sure they do, Leonsis in particular. What we don't hear about all that much is the process of becoming a champion. It's a goal...but seemingly a somewhat distant one because I'm not sure they understand what it takes to get there. There's too much stock put into luck as a deciding factor and that's the mentality of a franchise that's in some disorder mentally. There are plenty of things this franchise can control in terms of the process that they either choose not to or discount the importance of for some puzzling reason.
Delicate organization that can't handle the criticism or hard internal evaluations required to become a champ. The management "excuse" bs reminds me of BB showing this team their "successful" video 2-3 years ago cause he didn't want to mess with their psyche by going through their errors.

That quote from him was my first indication that he wasn't cut out for high pressure, high competition management.

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05-17-2011, 12:54 PM
  #393
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Thanks for posting your thoughts Stu. It is odd, it seems like our bottom line players arent carrying their playoff weight. But its tough to single them out when top line guys are no shows, or simply ineffective.

I am starting to think that grading a GM needs to be weighed heavily towards playoff success after having been granted a full rebuild and great picks for years.

I am also thinking the choice of a head coach, and deciding when to keep or kan the coach, should also be heavily weighed. No coach coaches forever. When to cut the cord. This team looked like crap for much of the year yet bruce got assurances. facepalm. I almost feel like Bruce went to a boring defensive hockey post bye bye flash in spite of George. While players developed, Bruce looked like a lost rookie. How hard is it to preach defense. I always played strong D and never had to be told to do it, in my illustrious roller career. I am a old school caps fan, that means I appreciate solid D. Its in my DNA. Yet getting the guys to play D was really his only big accomplishment. The Rangers series was good but nothing to rah rah over after our Tampa showing. He finally convinced Sarge to pinch in and hit a little. Rah. Speaking of which, scrutinizing first round picks should carry extra weight. Sarge was drafted ahead of Green. That tells me George thinks he should be better than Green. Thats gradeable.

I dunno, its not a perfect science, grading a GM.
I agree that coaching decisions should carry a lot of weight as should playoff success post re-build. The Pens and Hawks actually took big strides in short order. Only one team can win it each year though and those 2 took those spots the last two seasons, but one could definitely argue that the Caps should have made it further than they have.

As for the Schultz/Green draft positions, the story goes that Dallas was going to pick Schultz if the Caps didn't grab him with the earlier of their two picks.

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05-17-2011, 02:23 PM
  #394
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As for the Schultz/Green draft positions, the story goes that Dallas was going to pick Schultz if the Caps didn't grab him with the earlier of their two picks.
We should have let them. I'd rather have a bust than a $10 million turd.

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05-17-2011, 05:08 PM
  #395
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I remember that Sarge story now. But I would think in the bag of tricks of GMing, would be making other teams think you are going to draft someone other than they really want.

They made us take Sarge and may not have wanted him all along. Feigning interest in Sarge to make sure the clown they ended up drafting was still there.

I still question a GM that targeted such a long term project in what was destined to become a skating league. Especially after hitting the jackpot with Ovi in the same round. It doesnt make sense to me. When he landed Ovi, he should have been less likely to go after long term projects. Obviously he was enamored with Sarge and maybe one day he will prove me wrong. By the time Sarge starts being physical at least once per game, it will be time to retire.

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05-17-2011, 06:02 PM
  #396
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Sure would have been nice to get Bolland who went a few picks later...

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05-17-2011, 06:43 PM
  #397
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They made us take Sarge and may not have wanted him all along. Feigning interest in Sarge to make sure the clown they ended up drafting was still there.

LOL Yeah, we Caps fans will believe in and eat most anything they shove in front of us, don't you think? It comes from living there and being bombarded by the lying politicians and newscasters for 20+ years.

McPhee drafts passive players: Eric Fehr, Jeff Schultz, Nick Backstrom, Karl Alzer, AnGus is so passive he doesn't want to play any more. The Washington Nice Guys. The Washington Cupcakes. Alzner, Carlson, Ovie, Varly and Backstrom are great players and nice guys who I want in D.C. for their entire careers--but you can't have a whole team of nice guys. You need snarl. You need to draft snarl. McPhee won't do it. He intends to run a tight ship with no back talk--not even from Ted.

Steve Downie? Mike Richards? Darias Kasparitis? A Rick Tochett type on wing who crushes people, fights, and scores would empower our friendlier forwards. A punisher on defense would make Martin St. Louis hesitate a bit before pirouetting through our Glee Club Defense.


Stanley Cup winners are fierce. The Capitals are not.

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05-17-2011, 07:57 PM
  #398
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We were a bunch of cupcakes. The worst thing that could happen to an opponent, Ovi would deck you if you tried to deck him, and if you got into a zone where erskine could semi-board you, he would. Other than that, it was a walk in park. Folks set up in front and had time for a coffee and donut.

I am still fumed seeing Neuvy flat our run over in game 4 and our wussy ass team had already laid over and didnt do dick. Nice guys finish last. Good point Atlas, we have too many Good Guys. Hmmm maybe I will take a trip there soon.

AnGus yeah that was silly. Projected to be a 3rd liner at best from day one I presume. I had a red flag because of his bad back.


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05-17-2011, 08:15 PM
  #399
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We were a bunch of cupcakes. The worst thing that could happen to an opponent, Ovi would deck you if you tried to deck him, and if you got into a zone where erskine could semi-board you, he would. Other than that, it was a walk in park. Folks set up in front and had time for a coffee and donut.

I am still fumed seeing Neuvy flat our run over in game 4 and our wussy ass team had already laid over and didnt do dick. Nice guys finish last. Good point Atlas, we have too many Good Guys. Hmmm maybe I will take a trip there soon.

AnGus yeah that was silly. Projected to be a 3rd liner at best from day one I presume. I had a red flag because of his bad back.
Thats such ********. Take Jason Campbell and Randy Moss. Randy Moss is a once in a generation talent, but at the same time a terrible teammate. Maybe not the worst person but certainly bad enough to be declared a ******. Everywhere he's been, as soon as his production goes down he's let go. Same with T.O.

Jason Campbell on the other hand has mediocre production at best yet still continues to get second chances. You think for a second if JC was a trouble maker he'd still be in the league?

Also look at our very own BB. Incompetent at the wrong times but an ultra nice and likeable guy. You think that if he channels his inner Marty Schotenheimer he stays after Montreal. Then you look at Marty who is the BB of the NFL. Great regular season success, but terrible postseason success and a history of clashing with management. Guy got let go after a 14-2 season for all around nice guy Norv Turner.

Talent knows little of the difference between nice and not...nice. It does not discriminate There is no trend that says the best players are ****** bags or saints. Joe Montana and Tom Brady in football are nice guys, MJ is a ******. Wayne Gretzky the greatest hockey player of all time is a nice guy. Patrick Kane is a dick head, yet still wins the cup. Joe Gibbs wins 3 Super Bowls, but then again so has Bill Belicheat. For every successful ****** athlete I can name an equally successful nice guy and vice versa.

Bottom line is this if you're a ****** people will get rid of you as soon as they can (See: Chris Pronger). Heck they'll even pack up your stuff for you. Nice guys on the other hand will get chance after chance after chance until it's absolutely crystal clear that they're not up to a task and even then you might get another chance. However a nice guy with talent will be set for as long as he's able to show up to work.

I know thats probably not what you were talking about but I had to get that off my chest.


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05-17-2011, 08:17 PM
  #400
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It'd be nice if we had more George McPhee on this team actually. And that's the truly bizarre thing.

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