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How long does a rebuild take?

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Old
05-05-2011, 05:41 PM
  #26
Duc620
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Yzerman built the team the right way, he built around the teams established best players and has added great draft picks and good trades and FA signings. He didn't trade St. Louis or Lecavavalier for "grit and character". He didn't sign Rob Blake, trade for Dan Cloutier or bring in a bunch of washed up Red Wings.
Steve has done great deal of building and development work since May 2010. He's a wizard. His handpicked team is marching to the Stanley Cup in a year. Hopefully his GM career path doesn't follow Marc Crawford's as a coach.

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Dean had pieces when he arrived here. He chose to trade his star players and Yzerman didn't. TB was anything but loaded when he arrived there, he chose to build around his star players rather than trading them.
Certainly the "star players" DL traded have moved on to stellar post season success.

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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Kings had Kopitar, Brown, Visnovsky, Demitra, Cammalleri, Frolov, Gleason, Quick, Belanger, Avery, Norstrom, Quick. But keep saying the Kings were void of talent.
All of whom have hoisted the Cup since .... when?

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05-05-2011, 05:52 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
Yes I know they have Martin St.Louis and Vinny LeCavalier, but in contrast to our slo-mo rebuild, it does seem that other teams are capable of and have done better in a far more condensed period of time. Add to that the tag line on the Tampa Bay broadcast last night and it seemed like a slap in the face: Our truly passionate owner and the legendary Steve Yzerman have brought us back!
AND Brad Richards, AND Dan Boyle...

They had made the playoffs 4 straight seasons prior, including winning a cup.

Again, not very comparable to the Kings situation.

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05-05-2011, 06:00 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
No is saying the cupboard was empty. We just saying what DL had wasn't nearly as good as what Yzerman had.
?? Many Kings fans (here and LGK) do say the cupboard was empty when DL got here.

And you weren't too far off yourself with your post #4 above: "By comparison, what did DL have to build around when he came to LA?"

Well, that's been asked and answered - Lombardi DID have some top-level talent when he got here, but he chose to trade for (and extend - costing yet another pick) Cloutier before he even found a place to live.

And don't forget that Dave Taylor was never given the freedom to tear this team down to do a full rebuild.

And last year (09-10 season), there were several fans saying the re-build was going "ahead of schedule." Really?!? Maybe in Manchester? cuz what's going on in L.A. is certainly not "ahead of schedule."

Quite frankluy, how long does Dave Taylor (ok, "pre-DL") even get mentioned regarding who is on this team and how it performs? We just finished 5 yrs of DL, with 4 playoff game wins (and several PO game collapses) to show for it.

DT is only mentioned here in response to the comments "DL didn't have **** when he got here - now look how much he's accomplished... in only 5 years!"

5 years is a lot of time for some teams to get turned around and make noticeable progress during the season and in the playoffs (Bos, TB, Chi, Phil, Phx, Pitt, Wash).

DL just needs more time, right?

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05-05-2011, 06:00 PM
  #29
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How is this even an arguement? Sriously, WTH? Yzerman inherited a team that had two all stars in St.Louis and Lecavalier to build around, oh yeah and the Lightning had a Stanley Cup victory in their recent history as well. DL inherited a team whos biggest stars best days were behind them and the young guys he did have were complete unknowns... Visnovsky and Demitra were really the only pieces of legit value that DL inherited, and those were turned around for parts that would help the team when the Totally different situations for the two to be put in. Yzerman was able to bring in pieces (Gagne, Purcell, Kubina) to support his best assets and build around an established core group of players. DL was put in a position were his core guys were either young and unproven (Cammy, Frolov, Gleason, Kopitar, Brown, Boyle, etc) or aging veterans (Norstrom, Demitra, Conroy, Miller) that wouldn't be around once the young guys were ready to step in full time so he made the choice to focus on building around the young core that he had and acquire players like Johnson, Purcell, O' Sullivan that would help in the future once the core was ready to handle the full responsability of being the core guys. I'd also add that while you use Tampa as a comparison, you leave out the fact that teams like Atlanta, Florida, Columbus, and St. Louis have all been locked in similiar rebuilds to the Kings for much longer with less success. The Kings havn't seen the quick turn around like Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh have but they are at least seeing improvement on a year to year basis thus far since DL has been here.

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05-05-2011, 06:08 PM
  #30
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Hey maybe even Penner will show up in shape and want to play for a new contract next season?
MAYBE he will gladly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger Today!

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05-05-2011, 06:09 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Fair enough, but Dean could have done what Yzerman did, he really could have. He inherited a lot of talent still under 25 when he took over the Kings. They simply weren't the blue collar lunch bin players Dean loves.
Yeah he could have, and we wouldn't have Johnson, Doughty, or Bernier right now.

When Dean came on board, everyone was tired of the black hole situation; not good enough to make the playoffs, not bad enough to draft high. It was time to move in a new direction, and that required a tear down and rebuild. Cammalleri and Visnovsky should have been part of it, but the decision to rebuild was the right one. And I'll just add that Visnovsky was originally part of the plan, but he played like crap after signing his extension, so you can't really blame DL for moving him.

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05-05-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
?? Many Kings fans (here and LGK) do say the cupboard was empty when DL got here.

And you weren't too far off yourself with your post #4 above: "By comparison, what did DL have to build around when he came to LA?"

Well, that's been asked and answered - Lombardi DID have some top-level talent when he got here, but he chose to trade for (and extend - costing yet another pick) Cloutier before he even found a place to live.
I used the word comparison. Meaning I was comparing what Lombardi had, to what Yzerman had. I didn't say DL had nothing. I'm just saying it wasn't anywhere near as good as what Yzerman had.

Tampa's situation is not comparable to LA's. Whether you start your comparison in 07-08, or from the time when Yzerman took over. Either way, it's apples to oranges.

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05-05-2011, 06:16 PM
  #33
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When does everyone think this rebuild started? That is a key point that no one is mentioning.

It sure wasn't when DL was hired, so when did it begin?

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05-05-2011, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Cammalleri and Visnovsky should have been part of it, but the decision to rebuild was the right one. And I'll just add that Visnovsky was originally part of the plan, but he played like crap after signing his extension, so you can't really blame DL for moving him.
Plus it's not like the assets that came back for Visnovsky are long gone and aren't helping this team right now...

That's the thing for me I think DL has gotten decent to good value for every asset that he's given up since he has been here. Cammy, and Purcell, are the only ones I can think of that are even questionable returns and even those I had no real issues with at the time and it's only due to hindsight that I call them bad deals.

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05-05-2011, 06:18 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
?? Many Kings fans (here and LGK) do say the cupboard was empty when DL got here.

And you weren't too far off yourself with your post #4 above: "By comparison, what did DL have to build around when he came to LA?"

Well, that's been asked and answered - Lombardi DID have some top-level talent when he got here, but he chose to trade for (and extend - costing yet another pick) Cloutier before he even found a place to live.

And don't forget that Dave Taylor was never given the freedom to tear this team down to do a full rebuild.

And last year (09-10 season), there were several fans saying the re-build was going "ahead of schedule." Really?!? Maybe in Manchester? cuz what's going on in L.A. is certainly not "ahead of schedule."

Quite frankluy, how long does Dave Taylor (ok, "pre-DL") even get mentioned regarding who is on this team and how it performs? We just finished 5 yrs of DL, with 4 playoff game wins (and several PO game collapses) to show for it.

DT is only mentioned here in response to the comments "DL didn't have **** when he got here - now look how much he's accomplished... in only 5 years!"

5 years is a lot of time for some teams to get turned around and make noticeable progress during the season and in the playoffs (Bos, TB, Chi, Phil, Phx, Pitt, Wash).

DL just needs more time, right?
The part that gets glossed over is Lombardi has made some monumental blunders whereas Yzerman has not. If you were to look at the guys Lombardi has signed almost all of them are out of the NHL by now. With the pieces in place Yzerman has been able to add the "character guys" Lombardi already talked about to go with his core. Lombardi shuffled the deck, has missed in free agency, has missed in the draft, has missed on trades, has missed on a head coach (some would say twice) while Yzerman keeps making the right choices. Is that because of the core each GM inherited or because one GM knows how to win while the other has spent his entire career trying to figure it out?

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05-05-2011, 06:21 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
MAYBE he will gladly pay you Tuesday for a Hamburger Today!
Not a chance in hell Whimpy!!

Penner needs that video. You know the one where the guy says, "Oh yeah, we're gonna burn some goo today!"

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05-05-2011, 06:22 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
When does everyone think this rebuild started? That is a key point that no one is mentioning.

It sure wasn't when DL was hired, so when did it begin?
When... Cloutier became a King?


(is this a trick question?)

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05-05-2011, 06:26 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The part that gets glossed over is Lombardi has made some monumental blunders whereas Yzerman has not. If you were to look at the guys Lombardi has signed almost all of them are out of the NHL by now. With the pieces in place Yzerman has been able to add the "character guys" Lombardi already talked about to go with his core. Lombardi shuffled the deck, has missed in free agency, has missed in the draft, has missed on trades, has missed on a head coach (some would say twice) while Yzerman keeps making the right choices. Is that because of the core each GM inherited or because one GM knows how to win while the other has spent his entire career trying to figure it out?
What players has Yzerman added that turned Tampa into a contender?

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05-05-2011, 06:27 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The part that gets glossed over is Lombardi has made some monumental blunders whereas Yzerman has not. If you were to look at the guys Lombardi has signed almost all of them are out of the NHL by now. With the pieces in place Yzerman has been able to add the "character guys" Lombardi already talked about to go with his core. Lombardi shuffled the deck, has missed in free agency, has missed in the draft, has missed on trades, has missed on a head coach (some would say twice) while Yzerman keeps making the right choices. Is that because of the core each GM inherited or because one GM knows how to win while the other has spent his entire career trying to figure it out?
Part of this is why I asked when the rebuild began...

If you are saying that the guys DL signed are out of the NHL now, then you can't say that his rebuild started when he was hired.

The reason those guys were signed was to fill roster spots, not to win, there's a reason why they are out of the NHL now, they were GAP players, why not judge DL on his signings of Handzus, Scuderi, and Mitchell, all turned out to be excellent signings, instead you want to focus on the GAP signings and say he missed?

Can't have it both ways...

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05-05-2011, 06:28 PM
  #40
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Roloson was the major acquisition,

Of course no one will admit to believing that Roloson was the key at the time.

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05-05-2011, 06:33 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
When... Cloutier became a King?


(is this a trick question?)
So you think the minute DL was hired, the rebuild started??

Please explain the following then and how they fit in a rebuild...

Signing the following

Rob Blake
Scott Thornton
Alyn McCauley
Brian Willsie
Kevin Dallman
Raitis Ivanans

Trading for Dan Cloutier
Claiming Marty Murray


That;s not the start of a rebuild, no matter how you define it.

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05-05-2011, 06:34 PM
  #42
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Yzerman acquired half the defensemen they're using now, plus the goaltender, plus Bergenheim who's scored 7 goals these playoffs, and the Simon Gagne guy who has now shown up. I don't know but that seems pretty good to me.

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05-05-2011, 06:35 PM
  #43
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Roloson was a desperate move by a GM desperate to make a run before St. Louis and Lecavalier turn into pumpkins. So far it is working. Good for Stevie Y., but it doesn't make him some kind of genius GM. He grabbed the best goalie available at the time he needed one the most.

I think the odds of Roloson beating Tim Thomas and Roberto Luongo back-to-back are pretty damn slim.

Some of the other acquisitions he made are good. Gagne was nothing special this season. Bergenheim has been surprisingly good in the playoffs. A GM never expects a guy like that to perform that way. At least he better not. As far as the defense, one of them is Randy Jones. Have we forgotten Randy Jones?

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05-05-2011, 06:36 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
Yeah he could have, and we wouldn't have Johnson, Doughty, or Bernier right now.

When Dean came on board, everyone was tired of the black hole situation; not good enough to make the playoffs, not bad enough to draft high. It was time to move in a new direction, and that required a tear down and rebuild. Cammalleri and Visnovsky should have been part of it, but the decision to rebuild was the right one. And I'll just add that Visnovsky was originally part of the plan, but he played like crap after signing his extension, so you can't really blame DL for moving him.
But DL traded away valuable pieces of the puzzle, and at least one of those trades created the hole we are still looking to fill. (and (not directed at you jjm22) Yes, Cammy has had far better playoff success than any current King player not to mention better playoff performance too.And I loved that stat they put up while Montrewal was still alive: in 7 elimination games Cammy has been in with Montreal he has seven goals and 10 points -- sounds clutch to me, but DL doesnt think he is worth ****)

Right now we are at the efforts stage, without results. Therere are 100 or a 1000 ways to skin a cat. DL has preached all along that his way is the only way. My point in posting this thread was to show that another team in a crappy position (last place in 2008) could do it in a differnent fashion and more quickly than our GM believes is possible.

No two teams are going to be completely alike, but how far might we have gone with 14 more goals in last seasons playoffs. Speculation for sure, but when we needed goals last year in the playoffs we didnt get them, while a guy our GM traded away got em in bunches.

Stevie Y didnt build TB since their basement finish in 2008, but they have been built up since then, in a manner quicker than us, while at the same time losing Boyle and Richards. The contrast is striiking, thats all I am saying.

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05-05-2011, 06:39 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The part that gets glossed over is Lombardi has made some monumental blunders whereas Yzerman has not. If you were to look at the guys Lombardi has signed almost all of them are out of the NHL by now. With the pieces in place Yzerman has been able to add the "character guys" Lombardi already talked about to go with his core. Lombardi shuffled the deck, has missed in free agency, has missed in the draft, has missed on trades, has missed on a head coach (some would say twice) while Yzerman keeps making the right choices. Is that because of the core each GM inherited or because one GM knows how to win while the other has spent his entire career trying to figure it out?
There is so much just wrong with this^

Yzerman only had to look for and obtain the "charcter guys" as you put it. He inherited a roster with very few to no holes in key positions. The only area that Yzerman has really drastically improved on the Lightning is at goalie and that's a temporary fix for another year or two at best. He brought in Gagne and that was a nice deal, but DL brought in Williams and Smyth which are both good deals. Penner is a giant ? at this point.

DL has drafted Simmonds, Clifford, Lewis, Moller, Martinez, Loktionov, Doughty, Bernier, all of whom have made at least a minor impact at the NHL level already. Yzerman has drafted who exactly that is on the Lightning roster?

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05-05-2011, 06:39 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
What players has Yzerman added that turned Tampa into a contender?
Roloson, Gagne, Guy Boucher, Purcell and Randy Jones! If Randy Jones raises the Cup this year I'm going to smash my TV. I agree with others that said Yzerman inherited a better group, totally different situation but Yzerman has managed to build a team in a quick amount of time that has just ousted Pittsburgh and Washington in back to back series. Imagine if Tampa signs Bryzgalov or Vokoun this summer? But lets not get carried away here, Yzerman has the big 3 up front and Hedman on D, it's not like he took over the 1982 Oilers. He has brought in character players to fill holes and it's worked as well as taking a chance on a coach who is making all the right moves right now.

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05-05-2011, 06:39 PM
  #47
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I would argue, in the new NHL, offense has a more effective chance to win games, but defense has a more reliable chance. Tampa Bay went with an offensive rebuild and it worked for them, we went with a defensive rebuild and, while have a bit of success ourselves, it hasn't quite worked out as well, but I would argue that we, over a longer period of time, have a greater chance of accomplishing deep or cup winning runs due to having high end goaltending and defense first versus Tampa's high end offense first build and systems. Having 6-7 goal outings is dominant, but less likely to repeat versus having back-to-back showings of allowing 2 or fewer goals per game, we just need to figure out a way to ensure our defense holds in the playoffs as well as it does during the regular season, and to ensure we get our three goals every night.

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05-05-2011, 06:41 PM
  #48
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signing those guys was the epitome of the start of a rebuild. Its called tanking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
So you think the minute DL was hired, the rebuild started??

Please explain the following then and how they fit in a rebuild...

Signing the following

Rob Blake
Scott Thornton
Alyn McCauley
Brian Willsie
Kevin Dallman
Raitis Ivanans

Trading for Dan Cloutier
Claiming Marty Murray


That;s not the start of a rebuild, no matter how you define it.

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05-05-2011, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
So you think the minute DL was hired, the rebuild started??

Please explain the following then and how they fit in a rebuild...

Signing the following

Rob Blake
Scott Thornton
Alyn McCauley
Brian Willsie
Kevin Dallman
Raitis Ivanans

Trading for Dan Cloutier
Claiming Marty Murray


That;s not the start of a rebuild, no matter how you define it.
When was the start of the rebuild? When Michael Handzus was signed to a 4 year 16 million dollar deal coming off of major knee surgery? Give us a date so we know where to start.

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05-05-2011, 06:44 PM
  #50
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Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
signing those guys was the epitome of the start of a rebuild. Its called tanking.
********....pure and utter ********...

Anyone that thinks anyone in a competitive sports environment goes out of their way to lose, needs to get rid of their tin foil hat.

They were GAP players, pure and simple, the rebuild didn't start when DL got hired, ffs, he had to get permission to burn it down to the ground, and that was AFTER the 2007 season, but **** everyone, let's go into a panic mode because 5 years to the day after he got hired, we haven't won a stanley cup,

Seriously boys, get a grip.

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