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How long does a rebuild take?

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Old
05-05-2011, 10:34 PM
  #76
The Black1963
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Are we there yet? Are we there yet?

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Old
05-05-2011, 10:39 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The question still remains-how long does a rebuild take? The Lombardi apologists seem to agree on a year, is there a year where they will no longer believe in what Lombardi is doing? At what point in times should long suffering King fans plan to have a lawn chair in front of Staples Center to watch the parade?
Why does there have to be a certain year? As long as they start being serious contenders starting next season or the season after that and remain so for four or five seasons, then that is all I can ask. The more kicks they have at the can the better.

I will no longer believe in Lombardi if he gets desperate and does something stupid. It is time though for him to shift gears and start moving some of the pieces he has accumulated around the chess board. Other teams know how close the Kings are and they aren't likely to get any help in the form of trading partners from other Western Conference playoff teams.

I think a minimum risk move might be the first thing on the agenda for the summer. Something like moving one of our young defensemen for a young winger of comparable value to increase the depth at that position.

I guess there are rumblings out there about Ryan Smyth moving on, but I still think that's a bit of a long shot. A move like that opens up a lot of possibilities. Draft day could be interesting.

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05-05-2011, 10:41 PM
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The question still remains-how long does a rebuild take? The Lombardi apologists seem to agree on a year, is there a year where they will no longer believe in what Lombardi is doing? At what point in times should long suffering King fans plan to have a lawn chair in front of Staples Center to watch the parade?
Isn't the answer, there is no "set-time", drafting and building and trading and signing is no exact science. If it was every team in the league would do it exactly the same, not to mention "it only takes 5 years" is somewhat comical seeing as there are 30 teams in the league...No "rebuild" case is the same and no set of drafted players are the same. You have to look at a situation and determine on your own.

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Old
05-05-2011, 11:19 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
One final thing.

I have had a bit of a bad run of luck lately what with getting hit by a drunk driving logger and as a result missing out on a large portion of the work that I do to make a living. I also have lost two family members and a very dear friend all within the last few months. I have had two surgeries to repair damage that I received from playing hockey when I was younger which have left me a little worse for wear and while all of these things have taken their toll, I will not only survive, but I will thrive and make it through.

I am someone who has faith. I am someone who has been given so much in life that even mentioning my petty little problems gives me allot of guilt. I know that allot of people would look at my life, my home and my possessions and not see very much but to me I have been given so much more than I could ever have hoped for that I treasure every aspect of my life.

I know that things will be much better and of this I have no doubt.

How can I be so certain?

What gives me so much certainty in these troubled times?

I know deep within my heart and with ever single fiber of my being one thing for certain. I know this one thing in the same way that I know that no matter how things go in life that good will always triumph over evil.

It is in that knowledge that I am certain that everything will be alright and that no matter how bad things get one thing, one thing for certain will NEVER HAPPEN.

I know for a fact that RANDY FREAKING JONES WILL NOT LIFT THE STANLEY CUP THIS YEAR! NO WAY, NO HOW!


If he does all will be lost.
You have heart my friend, and friends too that you have never even met.

I look forward to the day I can buy you a beer and we just sit and talk hockey.

May you continue to feel better every day,
and may one day, not soon enough, may we both celebrate the rising of a cup in Los Angeles.

And K17, you're right we did have Cammy!!!!!

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Old
05-05-2011, 11:27 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The question still remains-how long does a rebuild take? The Lombardi apologists seem to agree on a year, is there a year where they will no longer believe in what Lombardi is doing? At what point in times should long suffering King fans plan to have a lawn chair in front of Staples Center to watch the parade?
You want an exact year? Reality doesn't work like that. This isn't a video game.

Do you want to treat prospects that way too? "If you're not a 30 goal scorer in 3 years we're getting rid of you..."

The ship is moving in the right direction, when it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll want DL gone. Until then, I can handle some rough waters, apparently many others around here can't. The path is never perfect, or mistake free. Welcome to the real world.

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05-05-2011, 11:36 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by KingLB View Post
Isn't the answer, there is no "set-time", drafting and building and trading and signing is no exact science. If it was every team in the league would do it exactly the same, not to mention "it only takes 5 years" is somewhat comical seeing as there are 30 teams in the league...No "rebuild" case is the same and no set of drafted players are the same. You have to look at a situation and determine on your own.
It might be, if the "smartest guy in the room" hadnt sold everyone on a FIVE YEAR PLAN as if it were written in stone, sold it like it was gospel and asked everyone to drink freely the purple kool-aid.

Look, I'm not horribly unhappy, nor do I think our team is s*****. I'm just too long a King fan to be convinced that we are entering the promised land until we are past the second and into the third round and on a roll. Yes, I know there are no guarantees, but from what I and all other STH's and fans have been promised, nothing short of a second/third round playoff series is going to make me feel as if DL kept his word.

Yes progress has been made. but almost any step from the basement we were in would have been a upward move. We haven't won squat yet, and I go back to the difference between effort and results. We could've maybe done some damage this year if only . . . , but as the saying goes if only my aunt had testicles she'd be my uncle.

No one will be happier than me to see us in it, play for the cup and win it. I'm just of the opinion that our roster, even counting the kids to be added, isnt yet strong enough to get us there. And as for the coach, I dont think he can coach his way out of a paper bag, even if its opened on both ends.

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Old
05-05-2011, 11:37 PM
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
You want an exact year? Reality doesn't work like that. This isn't a video game.

Do you want to treat prospects that way too? "If you're not a 30 goal scorer in 3 years we're getting rid of you..."

The ship is moving in the right direction, when it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll want DL gone. Until then, I can handle some rough waters, apparently many others around here can't. The path is never perfect, or mistake free. Welcome to the real world.
The question the OP had was how long does a rebuild take, just looking for an answer.

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Old
05-05-2011, 11:38 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
You want an exact year? Reality doesn't work like that. This isn't a video game.

Do you want to treat prospects that way too? "If you're not a 30 goal scorer in 3 years we're getting rid of you..."

The ship is moving in the right direction, when it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll want DL gone. Until then, I can handle some rough waters, apparently many others around here can't. The path is never perfect, or mistake free. Welcome to the real world.
I get what you're saying, but its hard to accept it when everytime I read your posts I have to look at Kompon. It really makes your case a much harder sell!

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05-05-2011, 11:48 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
I get what you're saying, but its hard to accept it when everytime I read your posts I have to look at Kompon. It really makes your case a much harder sell!
You're just mad because he gives you the ol' Dustin Brown toe drag move when you are up against him 1-on-1.

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05-06-2011, 02:01 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
The ship is moving in the right direction, when it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll want DL gone.
... The Kings were a bit better team in 09-10 than they were in 10-11, so I don't see them "moving in the right direction", at all.

I saw some heavily relied-upon veterans decline, some heavily relied-upon and injury-prone veterans get healthy again and improve only to get hurt again, and some younger players play over their heads in the playoffs. I saw some other young players not being used right by a coach who has very little time for young players. I saw some goalies getting handled incorrectly by a coach who just can't seem to handle goalies.

I've seen this team take five years to go from a bit below .500 (36-39-7 without the shootout) to a bit above .500 (36-34-12 without the shootout), and I still see that three of the five most critical players on the team are players who were drafted by Dave Taylor.

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05-06-2011, 02:16 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... The Kings were a bit better team in 09-10 than they were in 10-11, so I don't see them "moving in the right direction", at all.

I saw some heavily relied-upon veterans decline, some heavily relied-upon and injury-prone veterans get healthy again and improve only to get hurt again, and some younger players play over their heads in the playoffs. I saw some other young players not being used right by a coach who has very little time for young players. I saw some goalies getting handled incorrectly by a coach who just can't seem to handle goalies.

I've seen this team take five years to go from a bit below .500 (36-39-7 without the shootout) to a bit above .500 (36-34-12 without the shootout), and I still see that three of the five most critical players on the team are players who were drafted by Dave Taylor.
I see a poster who see's what he wants to see.

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05-06-2011, 04:58 AM
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tikkanen View Post
The question still remains-how long does a rebuild take? The Lombardi apologists seem to agree on a year the rebuild started, is there a year where they will no longer believe in what Lombardi is doing? At what point in times should long suffering King fans plan to have a lawn chair in front of Staples Center to watch the parade?
To know that, you have to know what you think signals the end of the rebuild. It will be different for everyone. Is it a Cup? (based on your last question, this might be you) The 3rd round? The 2nd round? Consistenty making the playoffs? A certain make up of players? People predicting that the team will win the Cup? Winning the President's Trophy? Going 82-0 and then 16-0?

Personally, I think the rebuild is now done. I'm kind of combination of "a certain make up of players" and "consistently making the playoffs" mentioned above. We're now in the mode of making minor changes to move the team to a Cup, no longer rebuilding a team from the ground up. Goaltending and defense is set and we need some changes up front to push the team forward. The last of the veteran, "bridge" players are coming off the roster this year (or next for Smyth) and we now have a core of young players established and experienced in the NHL with some veteran guys we signed or traded for because we want them around for the playoffs and good years instead of using them to teach young players and put a team on the ice.

Also, I think most of you guys **** on Dave Taylor too much. Say what you will about trading young players and the 2003 draft, the guy was told to build a consistently competitive team and did actually do it. They were good teams and if not for a couple ****** game 7s agaisnt the powerhouse Avs, we'd be talking about that team more than we do now. If not for injuries, that core would have done well for at least a few more years after that too.

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Old
05-06-2011, 04:59 AM
  #88
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with Dean Lombardi a rebuild takes......
a playoff contention team 5 years.
a cup contention team never.

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05-06-2011, 07:09 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
with Dean Lombardi a rebuild takes......
a playoff contention team 5 years.
a cup contention team never.
Well the Kings were a playoff team in 4, so facts would say your 0 for 1.

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05-06-2011, 08:01 AM
  #90
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grunch

The Kings had 0 pieces to start the rebuild with, they didnt have a bonus of a Lecavalier or St louis to help. They also weren't rebuilding for a few years, they were just a bad team that was trying to compete. They also only had the luxury of 1 top 2 pick, whereas Tampa had 2 top 2 picks including a first overall, Pittsburgh 4 including 2 first overalls, Chicago had a first overall and were lucky enough to take Toews at the 3 spot.

The Kings never tanked well enough to grab those game changing top 2 picks more than once.

That being said, I dont think Tampa are a better team than a healthy Kings team, I dont see them doing well at all against Boston

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05-06-2011, 08:54 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
You're just mad because he gives you the ol' Dustin Brown toe drag move when you are up against him 1-on-1.
At my age and girth its now a lot easier to get around me than that.

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Old
05-06-2011, 10:03 AM
  #92
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Rebuilding Manchester and LA has taken less time than I expected. I don't see how anyone could use TB as a comparable when they didn't do a true rebuild. They aren't a playoff team without Roloson and they don't have much in the way of prospects.

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05-06-2011, 10:10 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... The Kings were a bit better team in 09-10 than they were in 10-11, so I don't see them "moving in the right direction", at all.

I saw some heavily relied-upon veterans decline, some heavily relied-upon and injury-prone veterans get healthy again and improve only to get hurt again, and some younger players play over their heads in the playoffs. I saw some other young players not being used right by a coach who has very little time for young players. I saw some goalies getting handled incorrectly by a coach who just can't seem to handle goalies.

I've seen this team take five years to go from a bit below .500 (36-39-7 without the shootout) to a bit above .500 (36-34-12 without the shootout), and I still see that three of the five most critical players on the team are players who were drafted by Dave Taylor.
I hear you. There hasn't been as much progress as I'd like to see, but I do think there was continued progression overall this season.

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Old
05-06-2011, 10:21 AM
  #94
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LOL are you kidding me? you think the #11 pick is tanking? First, that you actually believe competitive people try to lose is astounding, and second, that you think that the #11 pick is proof that it worked?
You missed 100% of what I am saying. I'm not saying the #11 and 4 picks were tanking.

Picking Bernier at 11 was fine (at first I did not like it, but whatever: if he plays like a #1 someday - great. if he gets traded for scoring - also great)

The #4 Hickey pick was, and still is, DL's worst blunder as GM. A #4 pick for a competent GM should be as close to a sure thing as you can get for some top talent.

Players drafted BELOW Hickey include: Couture, Eller, Shattenkirk, Alzner, Pacioretty, Subban. Could any of those players helped the Kings last season? I would say yes..

Couture has been busy scoring goals against the Kings, rather than for them.

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05-06-2011, 10:25 AM
  #95
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The Kings had 0 pieces to start the rebuild with,
See post #17.

There was plenty of talent here when DL started.

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05-06-2011, 10:28 AM
  #96
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The Kings had 0 pieces to start the rebuild with, they didnt have a bonus of a Lecavalier or St louis to help. They also weren't rebuilding for a few years, they were just a bad team that was trying to compete.
This happened approximately two months after Lombardi was hired.


...but keep telling yourself that the rebuild didn't begin right when DL took over.

oh and coming straight from Lombardi's mouth about the situation in L.A before he took over...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2417037
Quote:
"I chose the Kings for a number of reasons. First off, I'm a builder, and I see the foundation put in place by Dave Taylor," he said. "People sometimes come in and make things look as bad as possible, to paint themselves as heroes.

"But that's not the case here," he said.
Oh, and that whole AEG meddling thing?
http://www.kingshockey.com/articles.cfm?id=42
Quote:
Leiweke also explained that unlike how hockey operations was run under Taylor, AEG will keep its nose out of the day-to-day decisions, including those involving player personnel, and this may have been the key to Lombardi signing a long-term deal.

“We signed him to a five-year contract, so he has our long-term support here,’ Leiweke explained.


Last edited by Vortex: 05-06-2011 at 10:39 AM.
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05-06-2011, 10:49 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
You missed 100% of what I am saying. I'm not saying the #11 and 4 picks were tanking.

Picking Bernier at 11 was fine (at first I did not like it, but whatever: if he plays like a #1 someday - great. if he gets traded for scoring - also great)

The #4 Hickey pick was, and still is, DL's worst blunder as GM. A #4 pick for a competent GM should be as close to a sure thing as you can get for some top talent.

Players drafted BELOW Hickey include: Couture, Eller, Shattenkirk, Alzner, Pacioretty, Subban. Could any of those players helped the Kings last season? I would say yes..

Couture has been busy scoring goals against the Kings, rather than for them.
Cmon now, let's not let rhetoric get in the way,

There is no sure thing in the draft, and you bring up Eller, Alzner, and Pacioretty who have done very little in the NHL, Alzner has JUST THIS SEASON turned into a solid defenseman, so it took him a minimum 4 years to develop, and he had no serious injuries to deal with, but hey, let's not use logic here.

Since 1990, top 5 picks that have not met up to the hype.

1990 - Scott Scissons, Mike Ricci
1991 - Aaron Ward, Scott Lachance, Pat Falloon
1992 - Todd Warriner, Mike Rathje
1993 - Alexander Daigle, Chris Gratton, Rob Neidermayer
1994 - Radek Bonk, Jason Bonsignore
1995 - Aki Berg, Chad Kilger
1996 - Alexander Volchkov, Richard Jackman
1997 - Eric Brewer
1998 - Vitaly Vishnevsky, Bryan Allen, Brad Stuart, David Legwand
1999 - Patrick Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Tim Connolly
2000 - Rick DiPietro, Raffi Torres, Rostislav Klesla
2001 - Alexander Svitov, Stanislav Chistov
2002 - Kari Lehtonen, Joni Pitkanen
2003 - Nikolai Zherdev
2004 - Cam Barker, Andrew Ladd, Blake Wheeler
2005 - Benoit Pouliot
2006 - Everyone on pace for now
2007 - Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey

So, 17 years x 5 top picks, should equal 85 for sure NHL star players, right?

Too bad reality doesn't work that way...

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05-06-2011, 10:51 AM
  #98
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Originally Posted by Vortex View Post
This happened approximately two months after Lombardi was hired.


...but keep telling yourself that the rebuild didn't begin right when DL took over.

oh and coming straight from Lombardi's mouth about the situation in L.A before he took over...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2417037


Oh, and that whole AEG meddling thing?
http://www.kingshockey.com/articles.cfm?id=42
So then, you would be of the mind that the Detroit rebuild that led to the dominant 90's teams, was started in 84, right?

As far as what DL and AEG says, what exactly did you expect them to say?

DL - "Well, I came in because I like to build and what you guys have here is a big **** pile"

AEG - "Well, we hired DL because he can build a team, but also because we can control him"

?? Seriously?

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05-06-2011, 10:57 AM
  #99
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My guess is that if you polled GMs and other front-office types around the league, you would be very hard-pressed to find anyone who doesn't think Lombardi is doing an excellent job or disagrees with the path that the Kings are taking to build a winner.

That said, a lot of people here will not be satisfied until they win the Cup (some still won't be satisfied ) and that's fine too.

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Old
05-06-2011, 11:36 AM
  #100
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Until the NHL starts awarding trophies and banners and teams start holding parades for potential, I'm going to stick with results as the criteria for judging success.

Waiting "for as long as it takes" implies that the result is somehow guaranteed if only enough patience is given. Nothing could be further from the truth. Five full seasons is plenty of setup time for the serious run - it's time to put up or shut up.

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