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Old
05-06-2011, 11:43 AM
  #101
Duc620
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TG - best, my very best to you and your family....

The wisdom and knowledge you provide us around here is one of the reasons I decided to stay on this board. You're still an enforcer... your calm demeanor keeps a lot of us in line when things get to personal.

Get well and stay well....

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05-06-2011, 12:56 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
One final thing.

I have had a bit of a bad run of luck lately....
Feel better soon. Always enjoy your posts.

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05-06-2011, 01:10 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by tigermask48 View Post
Was bored and wanted to take a look at who TB played from the West and decided to break it down a bit:

vs. Playoff teams: 5-4-1
vs. Non playoff teams: 5-2-1

Home vs West: 6-3
Away vs West: 4-3-2

vs Pacific: 3-2-1

Two other interesting notes:

TBL vs. the Southeast division: 14-6-4
Kings vs. Southeast division: 5-0-0

TH record against West playoff teams bring up an interesting point of if Tampa is in the West are they even in the hunt or would they finish in the 9-13 area? Keep in mind that two of those victories against playoff teams are blowouts of the Coyotes... Also indicates that Tampa's record against the West could have been a product of who they played twice that being PHX, CHI, and MIN (won 5 of these 6) two of which are relatively free-wheeling run and gun teams. (PHX and CHI) which plays into Tampa's strength.

Looking at both the Kings and Tampa's records against the SE makes me ask this question, is Tampa that good or do they benefit from playing in one of if not the weakest division in the league and are otherwise a pretty middle of the road team?
I think any team will have a better record at home than on the road and against non-playoff teams as opposed to playoff teams.

I'm not sure how free-wheeling I'd call Phoenix's team but either way two of the three teams they played twice made the playoffs and another one had respectable moments.

It's also a sample size thing, Buffalo dominated the Pacific division at 5-1-1, does that mean they'd have won it? I have my doubts.

I'm just not seeing that big a gap between the East and West, apart from Boston, Montreal and Washington almost every team in the East (including non playoff teams) has a record against the West that is in step with their overall record. The West was a little better this year particularly in the middle of the pack, but to me there's not a big enough disparity to say that a 100+ point team would miss if they changed conferences.

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Old
05-06-2011, 01:12 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Cmon now, let's not let rhetoric get in the way,

There is no sure thing in the draft, and you bring up Eller, Alzner, and Pacioretty who have done very little in the NHL, Alzner has JUST THIS SEASON turned into a solid defenseman, so it took him a minimum 4 years to develop, and he had no serious injuries to deal with, but hey, let's not use logic here.

Since 1990, top 5 picks that have not met up to the hype.

1990 - Scott Scissons, Mike Ricci
1991 - Aaron Ward, Scott Lachance, Pat Falloon
1992 - Todd Warriner, Mike Rathje
1993 - Alexander Daigle, Chris Gratton, Rob Neidermayer
1994 - Radek Bonk, Jason Bonsignore
1995 - Aki Berg, Chad Kilger
1996 - Alexander Volchkov, Richard Jackman
1997 - Eric Brewer
1998 - Vitaly Vishnevsky, Bryan Allen, Brad Stuart, David Legwand
1999 - Patrick Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Tim Connolly
2000 - Rick DiPietro, Raffi Torres, Rostislav Klesla
2001 - Alexander Svitov, Stanislav Chistov
2002 - Kari Lehtonen, Joni Pitkanen
2003 - Nikolai Zherdev
2004 - Cam Barker, Andrew Ladd, Blake Wheeler
2005 - Benoit Pouliot
2006 - Everyone on pace for now
2007 - Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey

So, 17 years x 5 top picks, should equal 85 for sure NHL star players, right?

Too bad reality doesn't work that way...
rhetoric? I don't think so. I thought DL was some kind of genius GM...? I keep reading that, but I see several question areas on his team.

reality = results. I really don't care about draft failures of other teams - I only care about the Kings and what their players are doing.

Hickey was a #4 pick that many "experts" put in the 2nd round... You are right about 1 thing: there is no sure thing in the draft! (Kings fans are WELL aware of this fact)

You didn't mention Couture...? Wouldn't he look good in a Kings jersey now? Ya know, we could use another center.

Keep defending though... it's a good read

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05-06-2011, 01:58 PM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Cmon now, let's not let rhetoric get in the way,

There is no sure thing in the draft, and you bring up Eller, Alzner, and Pacioretty who have done very little in the NHL, Alzner has JUST THIS SEASON turned into a solid defenseman, so it took him a minimum 4 years to develop, and he had no serious injuries to deal with, but hey, let's not use logic here.

Since 1990, top 5 picks that have not met up to the hype.

1990 - Scott Scissons, Mike Ricci
1991 - Aaron Ward, Scott Lachance, Pat Falloon
1992 - Todd Warriner, Mike Rathje
1993 - Alexander Daigle, Chris Gratton, Rob Neidermayer
1994 - Radek Bonk, Jason Bonsignore
1995 - Aki Berg, Chad Kilger
1996 - Alexander Volchkov, Richard Jackman
1997 - Eric Brewer
1998 - Vitaly Vishnevsky, Bryan Allen, Brad Stuart, David Legwand
1999 - Patrick Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Tim Connolly
2000 - Rick DiPietro, Raffi Torres, Rostislav Klesla
2001 - Alexander Svitov, Stanislav Chistov
2002 - Kari Lehtonen, Joni Pitkanen
2003 - Nikolai Zherdev
2004 - Cam Barker, Andrew Ladd, Blake Wheeler
2005 - Benoit Pouliot
2006 - Everyone on pace for now
2007 - Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey

So, 17 years x 5 top picks, should equal 85 for sure NHL star players, right?

Too bad reality doesn't work that way...
Some of the names on your "not met up to the hype" list are interesting. I'm not sure exactly what you expected of some of these guys, but ...

Just a couple of examples:

Ricci? - played in 1,099 regular season games
Ward? - played in 839 regular season games and is on the Stanley Cup
Neidermayer? - played in 1,153 regular season games and is on the Stanley Cup

... and just for grins, who was the genius who drafted Brad Stuart?

I expect a top 5 pick to make the NHL team within a few years and have a long, productive career.

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05-06-2011, 02:18 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
rhetoric? I don't think so. I thought DL was some kind of genius GM...? I keep reading that, but I see several question areas on his team.

reality = results. I really don't care about draft failures of other teams - I only care about the Kings and what their players are doing.

Hickey was a #4 pick that many "experts" put in the 2nd round... You are right about 1 thing: there is no sure thing in the draft! (Kings fans are WELL aware of this fact)

You didn't mention Couture...? Wouldn't he look good in a Kings jersey now? Ya know, we could use another center.

Keep defending though... it's a good read
Lombardi was focused on the back end first which was probably not a good thing to be focused on in that draft year. Couture would look great in a Kings' uniform, yes. Overall though I am not going to complain. The Kings have drafted and developed some talent under Lombardi. The next step after Schenn starts contributing (in a major way hopefully) is to either use some of the depth we have on defense to trade for a scoring winger or to develop the kids we have in Manchester and get them up here as soon as they are ready. That may take a season or two.

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05-06-2011, 02:37 PM
  #107
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Quote:
1990 - Scott Scissons, Mike Ricci
1991 - Aaron Ward, Scott Lachance, Pat Falloon
1992 - Todd Warriner, Mike Rathje
1993 - Alexander Daigle, Chris Gratton, Rob Neidermayer
1994 - Radek Bonk, Jason Bonsignore
1995 - Aki Berg, Chad Kilger
1996 - Alexander Volchkov, Richard Jackman
1997 - Eric Brewer
1998 - Vitaly Vishnevsky, Bryan Allen, Brad Stuart, David Legwand
1999 - Patrick Stefan, Pavel Brendl, Tim Connolly
2000 - Rick DiPietro, Raffi Torres, Rostislav Klesla
2001 - Alexander Svitov, Stanislav Chistov
2002 - Kari Lehtonen, Joni Pitkanen
2003 - Nikolai Zherdev
2004 - Cam Barker, Andrew Ladd, Blake Wheeler
2005 - Benoit Pouliot
2006 - Everyone on pace for now
2007 - Kyle Turris, Thomas Hickey
You forgot EriK Johnson and Jack Johnson.

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05-06-2011, 03:27 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by sjmay View Post
Since 1990, top 5 picks that have not met up to the hype.
... This is 20/20 hindsight nonsense that isn't remotely relevant to the topic. Some of those players were useful in certain roles, and you're including examples of players from expansion teams who were downright terrible. There's no context within your list whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
My guess is that if you polled GMs and other front-office types around the league
... All of those GMs and "other front-office types" would not have the first sign of care or motivation to be truthful about the matter whatsoever. I'm sure they aren't going to say "yeah, that Lombardi in L.A. - he's drafted alright, made a few good trades and signings, made modest progress in the W-L column - yeah he's decent I suppose."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quattro View Post
That said, a lot of people here will not be satisfied until they win the Cup (some still won't be satisfied ) and that's fine too.
... Anyone who wouldn't be satisfied with this franchise's first ever World title is either A) a brand-new fan who came over from some other NHL team who won championships in the past or B) a total idiot.

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05-06-2011, 04:08 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by johnjm22 View Post
You want an exact year? Reality doesn't work like that. This isn't a video game.

Do you want to treat prospects that way too? "If you're not a 30 goal scorer in 3 years we're getting rid of you..."

The ship is moving in the right direction, when it starts moving in the wrong direction, I'll want DL gone. Until then, I can handle some rough waters, apparently many others around here can't. The path is never perfect, or mistake free. Welcome to the real world.
This is an exceptional take to me in that it mentions one of the things that go hand in hand with our rebuild if not all rebuilds and that is the time that it takes for young talent to improve to the point where they can not only contribute to a teams playoff chances but can begin to provide their own unique presence and as such help drive the team towards the cup.

Take a look at the Nucks and say, Kessler. He came in good, got better and now is a key player in the Nucks chances at winning the cup.

So while we have drafted at what I consider to be a truly astonishing rate the amount of time that it takes each of our uber talented kids to come learn the game and then leave their mark(s) on our team is impossible to say. The sooner the better but that doesn't give us any sort of a timeline to go by. That is why I say it takes what it takes. I believe we are right there finally and that this will be more than proven the coming season.

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05-06-2011, 04:16 PM
  #110
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I'll give Lombardi 3 more seasons to lift the Cup or he's out on the street. This offseason is going to be intersting, IMO, cause the Kings look like they might have too many prospects and some dead weight on the roster that could be packaged for an impact player or 2. I expect the Kings to improve a lot by year 3 and think they should be able to do some damage as long as Lombardi makes the right moves. IMO, this is Lombardi's time to shine, the team has an identity, the coach has an identity and there are clearly some NHL player who do not fit into this system and some that don't.

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05-06-2011, 04:30 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... Anyone who wouldn't be satisfied with this franchise's first ever World title is either A) a brand-new fan who came over from some other NHL team who won championships in the past or B) a total idiot.
I don't disagree but I have seen posts here earlier this year that said they wouldn't trade our position with Chicago's.

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05-06-2011, 04:31 PM
  #112
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This thread has taught me to be careful what to say to DIEHARD when I am aggravated because it could unleash him, as I am the other "poster" to whom he refers in the original post.

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05-06-2011, 04:34 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by DIEHARD the King fan View Post
I love revisionist history.

DL's work only really started two-three years ago so we really arent fully five years in.

He had full control from the second he got here and wouldnt have taken the job if he didnt get that. Do I need to dig up the quotes.

Telos hit on a point I mentioned in another thread and thats offense versus defense. Only one of the teams remaining (out of five) can be considered a defense first team, and I cant think of any cup champions in the last five years that played a defense first system. our GM and coach want that to be our style and combined with other moves, i think that foretells a longer, if ever, road to the cup.

For all the good he's done, I'm still not ready to kiss his rear and proclaim him Emperor Deano. Come back to me when we are into the third round if TM and DL are still around by then. I'm thinking the wont be.
Sorry to be so sporadically in and out on this one DH and I too can't wait to sit down and drink somethng ice cold and talk hockey, thanks for the kind words they do mean more than can be said.

On to this post.

I suppose in my opinion that it could be argued that you have to start somewhere in the rebuilding process and in that I give credit to DL for doing such a great job at selecting so many talented young D and Goatlenders (had to) so far. I think that we have built our team by taking the best player available in some ways but with a bend towards falling back on D if there weren't any forwards that we truly liked.

All of that said, we are no longer going to get a run at a lottery pick to find that top of bunch elite level talented sniper that we obviously need unless we are willing to part with some of our uber talented D/G's. This is why I am so optimistic about where we are going into this coming season.

We have openings going into next season and we finally will be filling these openings with players from our own system who are clearly more talented then the players that we will be losing. We also have three more young forwards who in my opinion are going to be impact players in the NHL within the next two seasons in Vey, Kozun and Toffoli all of which are point producing machine's if not true snipers.

In Kitsyn we have yet another grinding heart and soul talented forward who can step in and give us yet another upgrade in our two way game. I see him as a next season prospect (12/13) but I wouldn't be surprised if he earned a job out of camp either.

Should we have looked to build from up front first? I don't know but that is what I think you are asking. I would argue that we have built a very talented young team that is finally ready to take the next step and that we will do so as soon as this coming season.

When it comes down to the type of system that these players have to try and win with that is a different problem imo. I agree that a D first system equals fail in todays NHL but I also think that an O first system will do the same.

I would say that we need a coach who not only can put is in the playoffs and keep us there with a simple tight D game but can also provide us with the type of Offence that backs our opposition up enough to where they can get enough room to win it all with.

How many times after the 50 game mark and into the playoffs where we saw coaching errors that resulted in penalties? I remember 5 but am certain that getting even one too many men on the ice at this stage isn't acceptable under any circumstances.

I have yet to see our current coaching staff out coach us to a win but that is my opinion.

My point would be that even if TM and crew where to be here next season that I believe that we are now talented enough (or will be going into next season) to where we can absorb any problems that may occur as a result of his/their being here. We will win in spite of him and he TM is good enough to get us into the playoffs and we will be good enough to win regardless of how inept our coaching may be.

Rambling now but I hope that makes sense.

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05-06-2011, 04:44 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
So while we have drafted at what I consider to be a truly astonishing rate the amount of time that it takes each of our uber talented kids to come learn the game and then leave their mark(s) on our team is impossible to say. The sooner the better but that doesn't give us any sort of a timeline to go by. That is why I say it takes what it takes. I believe we are right there finally and that this will be more than proven the coming season.
I think you're treading on very dangerous ground with this philosophy. At some point, isn't it necessary to pick your lineup and go for it rather than cycling in every new draft choice with potential into the future success scenario and keep delaying judgement day essentially forever? The core keeps changing - it has gone from "as soon as Brown, Kopitar et al have more experience" to "as soon as Bernier, Johnson, and Doughty have more experience" to now it's "as soon as Loktionov, Schenn, and (add your prospect du jour) have more experience"...

At some point, there has to be accountability and not just "wash, rinse, repeat..."

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05-06-2011, 04:54 PM
  #115
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I agree completely and am saying that this coming year is the first year that we are actually positioned to begin our run at the cup as a legitimate contender. Otherwise I would agree with your warning. I believe that we are ready now.

Maybe I should say that I not only expect us to make it past the first round this year, I insist upon it. Of course there is things that cannot be controlled like Kopitar's injury but I believe that we will be in position this year to absorb such a big loss and still compete. That is where our drafting and depth has brought us to my way of thinking.

I agree that continuing to accept a loaded system that continually adds to its depth doesn't promise a cup. I think that it depends on how we use these assets to achieve our goal is where we can win and are positioned today.

It is a long way to the start of next season so I remain flexible in my opinion on our chances of success for this coming year but I am very very optimistic.

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05-06-2011, 04:58 PM
  #116
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I think you're treading on very dangerous ground with this philosophy. At some point, isn't it necessary to pick your lineup and go for it rather than cycling in every new draft choice with potential into the future success scenario and keep delaying judgement day essentially forever? The core keeps changing - it has gone from "as soon as Brown, Kopitar et al have more experience" to "as soon as Bernier, Johnson, and Doughty have more experience" to now it's "as soon as Loktionov, Schenn, and (add your prospect du jour) have more experience"...

At some point, there has to be accountability and not just "wash, rinse, repeat..."
Oh I just wanted to add that the reason I believe what I do is that we no longer need to add another D or another goalie or another character player or another most anything with the exception of a speed/sniper to have one of the most complete top notch teams in the league and that our depth is one of the key reasons that I believe this to be true.

As opposed to seeing the core changing I see it finally being truly established but your point is well taken.

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05-06-2011, 05:17 PM
  #117
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I'll give Lombardi 3 more seasons to lift the Cup or he's out on the street. This offseason is going to be intersting, IMO, cause the Kings look like they might have too many prospects and some dead weight on the roster that could be packaged for an impact player or 2. I expect the Kings to improve a lot by year 3 and think they should be able to do some damage as long as Lombardi makes the right moves. IMO, this is Lombardi's time to shine, the team has an identity, the coach has an identity and there are clearly some NHL player who do not fit into this system and some that don't.
Three seasons? Wow, what a generous man. What if the Kings only get to the WCF once and then to the Stanley Cup Finals a couple of times. Time to fire everyone, right?

On your other point, which dead weight players and prospects do you want to trade for which impact player? Cause I'm sure that the other GMs are just standing by the phone salivating over the opportunity to trade the up and coming Kings an impact player for our dead weight and prospects.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but some of you way oversimplify the job of a GM.

TG may be right (and I hope he is) about Vey, Toffoli, etc., but I think Lombardi is still going to have to buy some time in order for these guys to get to the NHL and make an impact.

Unless you are ready to give up someone like Jack Johnson, you aren't going to get an NHL-proven young winger in a trade. Anything else is somewhat of a gamble. Can Schenn and/or Loktionov come in next season and provide some offensive punch? Absolutely, but both of them could end up in Manchester as well.

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05-06-2011, 05:25 PM
  #118
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Some of the names on your "not met up to the hype" list are interesting. I'm not sure exactly what you expected of some of these guys, but ...

Just a couple of examples:

Ricci? - played in 1,099 regular season games
Ward? - played in 839 regular season games and is on the Stanley Cup
Neidermayer? - played in 1,153 regular season games and is on the Stanley Cup

... and just for grins, who was the genius who drafted Brad Stuart?

I expect a top 5 pick to make the NHL team within a few years and have a long, productive career.
Not up to hype? Meaning, you don't draft Mike Ricci who made a good career, at #2 overall,

Just because a guy made it on the cup, doesn't mean he was a great pick at #1-#5 overall...

Is it revisionist, of course it is, just as people saying we should have taking Couture or Subban, instead of Hickey, and that having a top 5 pick should be a sure thing.

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05-06-2011, 05:28 PM
  #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
Three seasons? Wow, what a generous man. What if the Kings only get to the WCF once and then to the Stanley Cup Finals a couple of times. Time to fire everyone, right?

On your other point, which dead weight players and prospects do you want to trade for which impact player? Cause I'm sure that the other GMs are just standing by the phone salivating over the opportunity to trade the up and coming Kings an impact player for our dead weight and prospects.

I'm not trying to be an ass here, but some of you way oversimplify the job of a GM.

TG may be right (and I hope he is) about Vey, Toffoli, etc., but I think Lombardi is still going to have to buy some time in order for these guys to get to the NHL and make an impact.

Unless you are ready to give up someone like Jack Johnson, you aren't going to get an NHL-proven young winger in a trade. Anything else is somewhat of a gamble. Can Schenn and/or Loktionov come in next season and provide some offensive punch? Absolutely, but both of them could end up in Manchester as well.
Might as well sign Lombardi to a life long deal to be GM of the Kings then. No pressure, when we get there we get there. Ho hum.

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05-06-2011, 05:29 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Butch 19 View Post
rhetoric? I don't think so. I thought DL was some kind of genius GM...? I keep reading that, but I see several question areas on his team.

reality = results. I really don't care about draft failures of other teams - I only care about the Kings and what their players are doing.

Hickey was a #4 pick that many "experts" put in the 2nd round... You are right about 1 thing: there is no sure thing in the draft! (Kings fans are WELL aware of this fact)

You didn't mention Couture...? Wouldn't he look good in a Kings jersey now? Ya know, we could use another center.

Keep defending though... it's a good read
Defending what? You made the asinine comment that picking #4 is a sure thing, that you are picking a star no matter what, or words similar to that affect, I showed you something completely different, and now it's you don't care, you only care what LA does.

What LA has done, is shore up their prospects into something desirable, you mention Couture, like it was a given he would pan out ffs.

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05-06-2011, 05:30 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... This is 20/20 hindsight nonsense that isn't remotely relevant to the topic. Some of those players were useful in certain roles, and you're including examples of players from expansion teams who were downright terrible. There's no context within your list whatsoever.



... All of those GMs and "other front-office types" would not have the first sign of care or motivation to be truthful about the matter whatsoever. I'm sure they aren't going to say "yeah, that Lombardi in L.A. - he's drafted alright, made a few good trades and signings, made modest progress in the W-L column - yeah he's decent I suppose."



... Anyone who wouldn't be satisfied with this franchise's first ever World title is either A) a brand-new fan who came over from some other NHL team who won championships in the past or B) a total idiot.
Context within my list? The guy said drafting at #4 is a sure thing, or the closest you can be, which is asinine to begin with.

As far as 20/20 hindsight, so that list is 20/20 hindsight, yet saying we should have picked Couture over Hickey...is not?

Again, can't have it both ways...

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05-06-2011, 05:36 PM
  #122
KINGS17
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Might as well sign Lombardi to a life long deal to be GM of the Kings then. No pressure, when we get there we get there. Ho hum.
That's not what I have said. I fully expect the Kings to be true contenders as early as next season and remain true contenders for up to five seasons. That is a GM doing his job. There is a lot of other variables and a little luck involved in winning the Stanley Cup.

The Kings need to continue to improve, but everything must be looked at in the proper context. If they incorporate two young forwards into the lineup next season and get bumped in the 1st round while getting a lot younger does that mean the team is suddenly going in the wrong direction? NO.

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05-06-2011, 05:39 PM
  #123
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When it comes down to the type of system that these players have to try and win with that is a different problem imo. I agree that a D first system equals fail in todays NHL but I also think that an O first system will do the same.

I would say that we need a coach who not only can put is in the playoffs and keep us there with a simple tight D game but can also provide us with the type of Offence that backs our opposition up enough to where they can get enough room to win it all with.
I'm not sure the D first fails in today's NHL as long as the team personnel is all playing the same reads and counters... I think that's really what the problem was this year. How does Kings A and Kings B read the same play by the opponent (are we on the same page?) and how do they respond as a 5 man unit. When they don't read and react the same we look pretty bad - always a step behind the play and looking lost.

When the system is firing on all cylinders, tho, it's pretty amazing to watch because it DOESN'T rely on all star skill level from every player. I guess the Sharks and Wings take downs in the middle of the season are examples of young King players (young in the sense of playing TM system and playing together) suddenly clicking with the system. They were reading the play and reacting as five man units. They came up the ice together with those tight ten foot passes.

To me, that is what puts the other team on their heels - when everything they do becomes "wrong" because of the way the Kings are reading and controlling the play.

Getting a sniper and more skill just makes it more fun!!

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05-06-2011, 06:08 PM
  #124
DIEHARD the King fan
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This happened approximately two months after Lombardi was hired.


...but keep telling yourself that the rebuild didn't begin right when DL took over.

oh and coming straight from Lombardi's mouth about the situation in L.A before he took over...
http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2417037


Oh, and that whole AEG meddling thing?
http://www.kingshockey.com/articles.cfm?id=42
Baaaaaaaa-zing!

Thanks for digging all that up. it certainly helps put to bed those revisionist history buffs

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05-06-2011, 06:18 PM
  #125
PSP
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
The Kings need to continue to improve, but everything must be looked at in the proper context. If they incorporate two young forwards into the lineup next season and get bumped in the 1st round while getting a lot younger does that mean the team is suddenly going in the wrong direction? NO.
...and if they incorporate another forward and a d-man the next season, staying young but getting bumped in the first round again - is that OK?

What about ANOTHER season after that?

Unfortunately, getting younger doesn't always equate to definitely getting better. If the talk is about Vey and Toffoli, what's the goal time period now - another 4 or 5 seasons? That's probably how long it's going to be before they are productive NHL players.

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