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Difficult year for our TOP developping prospects (not in the NHL)

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Old
05-07-2011, 12:23 PM
  #1
didouche
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Difficult year for our TOP developping prospects (not in the NHL)

Tinordi
Leblanc
Avstin
Kristo

Brendan Gallagher would be the only exception to that.

I'm not saying they were horrible but they didn't dominate...

should we be worried?

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05-07-2011, 12:32 PM
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Not every prospect needs to dominate to turn out to be a great player.

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05-07-2011, 12:33 PM
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NewEraGM
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Leblanc - 58 points in 51 games during the season, 9 points in 10 games during the playoffs
Avtsin - 22 points in 58 games. Thast was his first year in Hamilton. He has got another 1-2 years there before he is ready. I don't think anyone was expecting for him to be a ppg player. Let's wait until next year.
Kristo - 28 points in in 34 games and remember he has his whole foot injury, so that set him back a bit

I think the jury is still out on them. We will see how it goes. And Tinordi is doing fine...

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05-07-2011, 12:35 PM
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Not really, IMO.

Tinordi : Played 30mins a night, which means the coach trust him. Also first year playing in a league with a lot of games.

Leblanc : Leblanc played 30ish games last year. This year he was over a PPG in a VERY defensive system. Add to that the he played almost 3 times the amount of game he used to play and that it was his 4th league in 4 years. I also remember the way he played in the pre-season. I know it's pre-seaon, but he did very good for a 19 years old.

Avstin : IMO, he round up the amount of point I tought he would. He's a 19 years old russian player who played his first year in NA, barely speaking english and when he was given quality minutes when the top guns were in MTL, he delivered. Of course, he needs to step up his defensive game.

Kristo : Maybe he's the only one we could of worried about, but he last stretch he was about 2pts/g before his toe injury, after that he was a PPG.

Of course, all of us would like them to completly dominate their league, but they're not that type of players. Except maybe for Kristo. My bet is Kristo win the Baker trophy next year.

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05-07-2011, 12:37 PM
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Gallagher had a great year! Very nice surprise

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05-07-2011, 12:40 PM
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22 points in 60 games for a 19 year old in the AHL is pretty incredible tbh. Check how many 19 year olds playing in the AHL dominate.

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05-07-2011, 12:41 PM
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Who cares how many points Tinordi gets. He wasn't drafted for that. Any goals he gets are a bonus.

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05-07-2011, 01:31 PM
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Blind Gardien
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I'm always hopeful and by no means even suggesting writing any of them off, not even close.

Nevertheless, I think the OP has a valid observation and while we can retain our hopes, it really should be considered worrisome (in whatever degree, with whatever caveats) that those guys all had disappointing seasons.

I was actually disappointed with Gallagher too. I thought watching him that he looked very incapable of fighting through traffic and lacked the speed and agility to have any chance of translating his game to the NHL one day. But at least his numbers were good and give me hope that I just caught him on bad days.

I liked Leblanc in the WJC. But agree that I would have expected much better numbers from him in the Q.

I really thought Tinordi looked awful for a 1st round pick. Yes, he's a "project", and he did get better as the season wore on... but not so much better that I have any confidence at all that he'll pan out.

I didn't see Kristo or Avstyn, their numbers do look below expectations as well. Even considering projections of roles and ages.

It's okay to be "disappointed", but still hopeful/optimistic about them all, however.

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05-07-2011, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post
I was actually disappointed with Gallagher too. I thought watching him that he looked very incapable of fighting through traffic and lacked the speed and agility to have any chance of translating his game to the NHL one day. But at least his numbers were good and give me hope that I just caught him on bad days.
You most definitely did. Because Gallagher was great this season. The exact opposite of what you described: fast and shifty. Similar to DD. I don't think he's quite ready for AHL let alone NHL yet, but I think one more year and he's Hamilton-bound.

Only thing I'm worried about is lower body strength, but that's gym training. Nothing to lose sleep over.

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05-07-2011, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Blind Gardien View Post

I didn't see Kristo or Avstyn, their numbers do look below expectations as well. Even considering projections of roles and ages.

It's okay to be "disappointed", but still hopeful/optimistic about them all, however.
Kristo didn't have a great season, but he's always been projected as a likely 3rd liner type player hasn't he? Isn't he supposed to be a very good defensive player as well? I saw he started off absolutely terribly this year, but he came around very nicely and faced that frost bite situation as well, In October 2012 Kristo will likely make his debut for the Bulldogs and probably play a season or two there before we start thinking about him as an NHL player.

Avstin is a year younger than Kristo and playing in the AHL. He obviously isn't up to par defensively but this kid who doesn't even speak much english came over to make less money playing in the AHL than he would have in the KHL. I have no idea what some of you must have been expecting of Avtsin to be disappointed in his year...He might be the prospect I'm most excited about.

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05-07-2011, 02:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Kristo didn't have a great season, but he's always been projected as a likely 3rd liner type player hasn't he? Isn't he supposed to be a very good defensive player as well? I saw he started off absolutely terribly this year, but he came around very nicely and faced that frost bite situation as well, In October 2012 Kristo will likely make his debut for the Bulldogs and probably play a season or two there before we start thinking about him as an NHL player.

Avstin is a year younger than Kristo and playing in the AHL. He obviously isn't up to par defensively but this kid who doesn't even speak much english came over to make less money playing in the AHL than he would have in the KHL. I have no idea what some of you must have been expecting of Avtsin to be disappointed in his year...He might be the prospect I'm most excited about.
Kristo always has been projected as a top6 player. Well, that's my read. Even read top3..

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05-07-2011, 02:32 PM
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Kristo always has been projected as a top6 player. Well, that's my read. Even read top3..
I thought it was thought he didn't necessarily have the high end offensive talents but could be a 15-20 goal 20-30 assist guy who provides great 2 way play on the 3rd line.

Guys like that sometimes after several years take that next step and end up being top 6 players though, all the speculating is really futile when it comes down to it.

Absolutely no reason to be disappointed in Kristo's season though.

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05-07-2011, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
I thought it was thought he didn't necessarily have the high end offensive talents but could be a 15-20 goal 20-30 assist guy who provides great 2 way play on the 3rd line.

Guys like that sometimes after several years take that next step and end up being top 6 players though, all the speculating is really futile when it comes down to it.

Absolutely no reason to be disappointed in Kristo's season though.
Kristo will be somewhat like Chris Higgins was hopefully before the partying started. Higgins was a good player for us when he concentrated on hockey.

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05-07-2011, 02:53 PM
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Strangely, those guys are not the ones I could "target" as far as "dissapointing. Though, Tinordi has to be one for some, I personnally thought he did well at camp, but never thought he should have been targeted as a 1st rounder. So dissapointed based on camp, not dissapointed based on what I thought at the draft. He needs to be much more assertive and much faster, his feet are terribly slow to react promptly. Once he gets going, it's fine.

But the guys I would target 'cause I had big expectations for them are Lefebvre, Quailer and Walsh. I believed in Lefebvre in the dev. camp, knew he was going to be signed, but he failed to improve. And that can't be a good sign. While for Quailer it could be obvious based on the year he lost, there's a limit to how low you can go. And Walsh didn't have a bad season....but I like the guy very much and expected much more based on speed and size.

Another guy I'm dissapointed in was MacMillan....but clearly not for his talent as hockey player. The guy's got plenty...but already 2 tough injuries and it's clear either the guy is unlucky or he does have to fill that frame to avoid those injuries, but that's something we knew...but it,s dissapointing to see him being injured like that. And now he joins one of the toughest team in the NCAA...let's hope he's not going the Mike Cichy way....

Talking about Cichy, while I had and still have no doubt he would not translate anything offensive in the NHL, something told me he'd be a NHL'er playing good defensively and all. Not getting some icetime in ND is not THAT big of a deal based on how great the team is but the rest of his development sounds pretty weird....

As far as the 4 obvious names mentioned, I already covered Tinordi. We'll see how it will be turn out, still believes there are other d-men who will be NHL'ers sooner, but the guy still have some talent to show for. Leblanc....well it was already mentioned that hockey sense wise....it's not exactly the one of a pure offensive guy, so we'll how it will turn out. But my expectations are not THAT high so it makes up for it. I will be dissapointed in Kristo next year if he doesn't own the league. This year, I was dissapointed in him but the way he finished, makes me hope for the best.

Avtsin....well my biggest dissapointment is for his lack of playing time. Which could end up as him going back....'Cause the kid has some rounding up to do but has the talent to do it. Will he let himself learn the game so he'd come back next year? Maybe the reason of him coming back is actually Kirk Muller's departure. We never know but if Muller's leaving means Cunneyworth being hired as an assistant coach, it means a new coach with the Dogs. New coach means new start, Avtsin might like that. And maybe, though I'm not his biggest fan, if Vincent happens to be the new coach, we know that Vincent has a lot of interest for Avtsin to join Le Junior de Montréal so maybe they had a couple of interesting conversations nonetheless him not going there.....

Other dissapointments, is Carle not being a bigger factor at this stage. Our inability to convince Emelin to come...and to see that even with not a whole lot of playing time, the constant no-show of Trunev.

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Old
05-07-2011, 02:54 PM
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22 points in 60 games for a 19 year old in the AHL is pretty incredible tbh. Check how many 19 year olds playing in the AHL dominate.
Carey Price.

It's not only the different style of game Avstin had to get used to, it was a whole new culture. That's a load for a 19 year old and he did pretty well from all indications.

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05-07-2011, 03:13 PM
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None of our prospects have really dominated anywhere except maybe Subban.

Patches didn't really dominate last year anywhere.
Pleks didn't dominate the AHL before his first full year here.

Price dominated I guess though.

As others have said, you don't need to dominate to grow.

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05-07-2011, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Kristo didn't have a great season, but he's always been projected as a likely 3rd liner type player hasn't he? Isn't he supposed to be a very good defensive player as well? I saw he started off absolutely terribly this year, but he came around very nicely and faced that frost bite situation as well, In October 2012 Kristo will likely make his debut for the Bulldogs and probably play a season or two there before we start thinking about him as an NHL player.
I didn't see Kristo this year. Only the underwhelming numbers. I'll expect him to step up and be a big star in college next year. I don't really care about 1st/2nd/3rd line NHLer projections at this point... he just didn't seem to advance at his current level. I liked his energy and speed last year, I thought he'd be able to take it to the NCAA stardom level as a sophomore, that's all. He didn't. He gets a couple more tries. No biggie. Still a disappointing season. I bet he would say so too.
Quote:
Avstin is a year younger than Kristo and playing in the AHL. He obviously isn't up to par defensively but this kid who doesn't even speak much english came over to make less money playing in the AHL than he would have in the KHL. I have no idea what some of you must have been expecting of Avtsin to be disappointed in his year...He might be the prospect I'm most excited about.
I recall AK was on a much "thicker" team in his early AHL days, and while maybe he didn't get many more points, at least still seemed in the mix for his team, whereas Avstin hasn't automatically been in the mix, on a team that seems to employ some lesser players a lot. I just figured he would play more. Produce more. Etc. Next season I'll be looking for a step up into 20/20 range, as a top-6 regular. But even if he doesn't hit those numbers, it is not the end of the world, once again. He has lots of time.

Those guys are "mild disappointments". Leblanc I'm almost not disappointed in... I liked the WJC enough to override most of my worries about his non-dominance of the Q scoring parade.

The guy I'm truly disappointed about, and worried about, remains Tinordi. I was able to see him enough to get over the "bad game" factor, enough to feel like what I saw was really what I felt about him. He was a pretty average OHLer. Most guys at his level of play/development don't ever make the NHL. So he has his work cut out for him. Improvement is of course anticipated, and he may be growing into his body and experiencing a new league and all that, and may increase his curve dramatically next season. Here's hoping he does. There was a lot invested in picking him where we did, especially with the move up, and what I've seen so far makes me scared that it will turn out to be a very bad pick.

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05-07-2011, 04:31 PM
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Tinordi his going to be a nhler no doubt in my mind. he has size and good enough skating ability (likely a 4th/5th Def) but you don't draft those kind of players in the first round. you draft those guy in the 3rd round. you go for skill in the first round not size and toughness. I can already see habs fan whine for the next 10 year about not picking Faulk or Merrill or Coyle up front.

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05-07-2011, 04:54 PM
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Tinordi his going to be a nhler no doubt in my mind. he has size and good enough skating ability (likely a 4th/5th Def) but you don't draft those kind of players in the first round. you draft those guy in the 3rd round. you go for skill in the first round not size and toughness. I can already see habs fan whine for the next 10 year about not picking Faulk or Merrill or Coyle up front.
I'm whining about Merrill 'cause he's amongst the guy I wanted. I didn't see Coyle that much so I wasn't that big of a fan but geez after watching him at the Worlds....you have to wonder why we didn't see this. And Faulk well yes....I had some hot and cold moments with him. Was not on my 1st round picks list, I have to be honest.

But at one point, the whining is understandable. Especially as far as our US prospects are concerned. It's clear that we spend a significant amount of time over there. So we HAVE to have a better ratio than what we're having right now. If you take all that time, well own the league. And we're not doing it. Not as much as the time we spend there and the effort we clearly seem to be giving.

But Tinordi was mind boggling this year. I've seen him often and geez did he look so slow to react. And sometimes, unfortunately, it looked like hockey sense and anticipation, and there's some limit to what you can improve. Possible that the guy took a full year to understand to not base his game solely on his size. Surely, he'll need to dominate next year and while we do not expect him to be an offensive force, even the more defensive guys ended up putting points in Junior.

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05-07-2011, 06:10 PM
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While I was very high on Merrill at the time of the draft, and still am, I still have high hopes for Tinordi. I loved the pick at the time (even though I was pissed at trading away a 2nd rounder to move up a few spots), and while this season can definitely be considered a disappointment offensively I would give him another year or two in London before starting to get worried. Huge, tough, smooth skating defenseman like him don't fall off trees..and I think he'll prove to be a valuable player for us.

As for Avtsin, well, my main concern is his ice time. That, and the fact he's been a healthy scratch way more than he deserves to be. You have to be a little worried about him wanting to head back to Russian, if a guy like Danny Masse is in the lineup over him for the playoffs. Yes, I know he seems dedicated to play in North America and one day make the NHL, but I will be extremely concerned if he's consistently scratched again next season, or if he's again a fixture of the 4th line..

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05-07-2011, 06:12 PM
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None of our prospects have really dominated anywhere except maybe Subban.

Patches didn't really dominate last year anywhere.
Pleks didn't dominate the AHL before his first full year here.

Price dominated I guess though.

As others have said, you don't need to dominate to grow.
As I recall, Plekanec had a 30-goal season in the AHL before he was brought up. Am I wrong?

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05-07-2011, 06:15 PM
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As I recall, Plekanec had a 30-goal season in the AHL before he was brought up. Am I wrong?
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=56385

29 to be exact. He was 22 years old.

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05-07-2011, 06:19 PM
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http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=56385

29 to be exact. He was 22 years old.
Not bad for a two-way player who wasn't drafted in the first round.

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05-07-2011, 06:22 PM
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Who cares how many points Tinordi gets. He wasn't drafted for that. Any goals he gets are a bonus.
The only indication Tinordi's point count would get is how much he did manage to step up in his offensive game.

Otherwise, I'm asking whether he has been good in his own zone and on the penalty kill.

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05-07-2011, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by UniverStalinGraduate View Post
Kristo didn't have a great season, but he's always been projected as a likely 3rd liner type player hasn't he? Isn't he supposed to be a very good defensive player as well? I saw he started off absolutely terribly this year, but he came around very nicely and faced that frost bite situation as well, In October 2012 Kristo will likely make his debut for the Bulldogs and probably play a season or two there before we start thinking about him as an NHL player.

Avstin is a year younger than Kristo and playing in the AHL. He obviously isn't up to par defensively but this kid who doesn't even speak much english came over to make less money playing in the AHL than he would have in the KHL. I have no idea what some of you must have been expecting of Avtsin to be disappointed in his year...He might be the prospect I'm most excited about.
That is actually the part of the game where he needs to do do some work. He is good offensively, but he needs to refine his game a bit. My worry with him, is that he might get sucked into the whole between top 6 and bottom 6. You know, not quite the offense needed to be top 6, and neither the defensive awareness and energy type guy for the bottom 6.

My hope for him is perhaps in 2-3 years he will be 2nd line player. I think first line is out of the question..

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