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ATD2011 Thomas D. Green Final: (2) Guelph Platers vs. (5) Cincinnati Fireworks

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Old
05-10-2011, 02:08 PM
  #126
BraveCanadian
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Ramsey has a 7th place finish in Norris Voting. That's it. Heck Schneider has a 6th and 7th.
Yes and Norris votes follow offense most of the time, so what is your point? That is why Mike Green got votes.

Quote:
Desjardins has a 4th and a 5th (Which were his two All-star team years) Outside of that he has nothing.
Again, your point?

Quote:
Davydov has 6 FIRST team All-stars and a second in the Russian League. What else could he have done? You say he played against a bunch of "amateurs" What else could he have possible done to prove himself? We are now punishing players because they were not able by law to play in North America?
Good for him. Unless the Russian league is now the equivalent of the NHL (where most of the players we have drafted get their credentials), I'm not sure what that proves or how you would determine what that means in relation to playing against NHLers primarily.

I'm pretty sure that peoples view of the WHA/european leagues/ahl etc. in relation to the predominantly NHL draft varies quite a bit.

(but they are both still small )

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05-10-2011, 02:09 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In a 1984 NHL coaches poll, Ramsey was runner up for best defensive defenceman.
I'd missed that! Thanks a lot overpass. Lots more goodies about my team here actually:

Most Underrated Player - Barry Pederson (Rick Middleton, Michel Goulet, John Ogrodnick)

Best Shot - Mike Bossy (Wayne Gretzky, Jari Kurri, Michel Goulet)

Hardest Shot - Reed Larson (Doug Wilson, Ray Bourque, Rick Vaive)

Best Skater - Paul Coffey (Denis Savard, Rick Middleton, Mike Gartner, Gilbert Perreault)

Fastest Skater - Glenn Anderson (Mike Gartner, Denis Savard)

Best Stickhandler - Wayne Gretzky (Rick Middleton, Denis Savard)

Best Playmaker - Wayne Gretzky

Best Passer - Wayne Gretzky (Barry Pederson, Peter Stastny)

Best Referee - Andy Van Hellemond (Bruce Hood, Kerry Fraser)

Best on Faceoffs - Bryan Trottier (Doug Jarvis, Barry Pederson, Bobby Clarke)

Best Fighter - Dave Semenko (Larry Playfair, Behn Wilson, Clark Gillies)

Most Dangerous Near Goal - Wayne Gretzky (Mike Bossy, Rick Middleton)

Best Coach - Bryan Murray (Al Arbour, Scotty Bowman)

Smartest Player - Wayne Gretzky (Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy, Bryan Trottier, Rick Middleton, Jari Kurri)

Best Penalty Killer - Doug Jarvis (Rick Middleton, Wayne Gretzky)

Best Defensive Forward - Doug Jarvis (Craig Ramsey, Bob Gainey, Rick Middleton, Bryan Trottier, Jari Kurri)

Best Bodychecker - Scott Stevens (Denis Potvin, Dave Langevin, Bob Nystrom, Rod Langway, Stan Smyl)

Hardest Worker - John Tonelli (Bobby Clarke, Terry O'Reilly, Wayne Gretzky, Bryan Trottier, Brian Sutter)

Toughest Player - Brian Sutter (Scott Stevens, Dave Williams, Terry O'Reilly)

Most Improved Player - Tim Kerr (Reggie Lemelin, Scott Stevens)

Most Colorful Player - Wayne Gretzky (Denis Savard, Dave Williams)

Most Natural Ability - Wayne Gretzky (Kent Nilsson, Denis Savard, Rick Middleton, Paul Coffey)

Best Defensive Defenceman - Rod Langway (Mike Ramsay, Ken Morrow)

Best Goalie - Pete Peeters, Billy Smith, Tom Barrasso tie (Reggie Lemelin)

Best Young Player - Steve Yzerman (Tom Barrasso, Patrick Sundstrom, Brian Bellows, Phil Housley, Scott Stevens)

Best 1983-84 Rookie - Steve Yzerman (Tom Barrasso)

Most Valuable Player 1983-84 - Wayne Gretzky (Rod Langway, Rick Middleton)

Starting a team from Scratch, First player chosen - Wayne Gretzky

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05-10-2011, 02:17 PM
  #128
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Originally Posted by overpass View Post
In a 1984 NHL coaches poll, Ramsey was runner up for best defensive defenceman.
Im not sure that warrants a top defensive pairing spot, that was his one year with any norris consideration in 7th

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05-10-2011, 02:18 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I'd missed that! Thanks a lot overpass. Lots more goodies about my team here actually:

Most Underrated Player - Barry Pederson (Rick Middleton, Michel Goulet, John Ogrodnick)

Best Shot - Mike Bossy (Wayne Gretzky, Jari Kurri, Michel Goulet)

Hardest Shot - Reed Larson (Doug Wilson, Ray Bourque, Rick Vaive)

Best Skater - Paul Coffey (Denis Savard, Rick Middleton, Mike Gartner, Gilbert Perreault)

Fastest Skater - Glenn Anderson (Mike Gartner, Denis Savard)

Best Stickhandler - Wayne Gretzky (Rick Middleton, Denis Savard)

Best Playmaker - Wayne Gretzky

Best Passer - Wayne Gretzky (Barry Pederson, Peter Stastny)

Best Referee - Andy Van Hellemond (Bruce Hood, Kerry Fraser)

Best on Faceoffs - Bryan Trottier (Doug Jarvis, Barry Pederson, Bobby Clarke)

Best Fighter - Dave Semenko (Larry Playfair, Behn Wilson, Clark Gillies)

Most Dangerous Near Goal - Wayne Gretzky (Mike Bossy, Rick Middleton)

Best Coach - Bryan Murray (Al Arbour, Scotty Bowman)

Smartest Player - Wayne Gretzky (Peter Stastny, Mike Bossy, Bryan Trottier, Rick Middleton, Jari Kurri)

Best Penalty Killer - Doug Jarvis (Rick Middleton, Wayne Gretzky)

Best Defensive Forward - Doug Jarvis (Craig Ramsey, Bob Gainey, Rick Middleton, Bryan Trottier, Jari Kurri)

Best Bodychecker - Scott Stevens (Denis Potvin, Dave Langevin, Bob Nystrom, Rod Langway, Stan Smyl)

Hardest Worker - John Tonelli (Bobby Clarke, Terry O'Reilly, Wayne Gretzky, Bryan Trottier, Brian Sutter)

Toughest Player - Brian Sutter (Scott Stevens, Dave Williams, Terry O'Reilly)

Most Improved Player - Tim Kerr (Reggie Lemelin, Scott Stevens)

Most Colorful Player - Wayne Gretzky (Denis Savard, Dave Williams)

Most Natural Ability - Wayne Gretzky (Kent Nilsson, Denis Savard, Rick Middleton, Paul Coffey)

Best Defensive Defenceman - Rod Langway (Mike Ramsay, Ken Morrow)

Best Goalie - Pete Peeters, Billy Smith, Tom Barrasso tie (Reggie Lemelin)

Best Young Player - Steve Yzerman (Tom Barrasso, Patrick Sundstrom, Brian Bellows, Phil Housley, Scott Stevens)

Best 1983-84 Rookie - Steve Yzerman (Tom Barrasso)

Most Valuable Player 1983-84 - Wayne Gretzky (Rod Langway, Rick Middleton)

Starting a team from Scratch, First player chosen - Wayne Gretzky



How did I know this was coming??

What's your point? A bunch of your top 6 played in 1984...thats about all it proves.

Big deal

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05-10-2011, 02:21 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
How did I know this was coming??

What's your point? A bunch of your top 6 played in 1984...thats about all it proves.

Big deal
"I need evidence about your players!"

here is some

"I don't know what that proves, big deal!"

As far as goal scoring on my front line is concerned you might like:

Most Dangerous Near Goal - Wayne Gretzky (Mike Bossy, Rick Middleton)


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-10-2011 at 02:31 PM.
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05-10-2011, 02:24 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm still not sure why you think your team has the massive advantage in terms of toughness either? Who are these big mean physical players?

Your team is poorly constructed, Ogrodnick was a terrible pick and added nothing to your team, Lebedev is completely out of place, Dont even get me started on Gary Roberts (I guess we dont have injuries in the ATD)

Clark Gillies in the 4th round was one of the biggest reaches in the draft. BC already admitted it as being a mistake during the draft thread.
STOP

PUTTING

WORDS

IN

MY

MOUTH

I didn't say Gillies was a "mistake"

I said I took him higher than his value because I liked how unique he was and his built in chemistry with Trottier and later Arbour (who I coveted as well and took slightly early to make sure I got him). He adds more in my situation than he would as an individual island.

Physically your team doesn't come close to mine. Your team is going to take some licks every shift.

Particularly your small blueline.

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05-10-2011, 02:34 PM
  #132
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
STOP

PUTTING

WORDS

IN

MY

MOUTH

I didn't say Gillies was a "mistake"

I said I took him higher than his value because I liked how unique he was and his built in chemistry with Trottier and later Arbour (who I coveted as well and took slightly early to make sure I got him). He adds more in my situation than he would as an individual island.

Physically your team doesn't come close to mine. Your team is going to take some licks every shift.

Particularly your small blueline.


Are you going to list these physical players? Any blueline with Robinson, Stanley, and Shmyr is far from undersized.

Davydov:

Quote:
Davydov was one of the best players in Soviet hockey history in the years prior to 1972.
Was voted 4th best Russian all-time http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm

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05-10-2011, 02:35 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
"I need evidence about your players!"

here is some

"I don't know what that proves, big deal!"

As far as goal scoring on my front line is concerned you might like:

Most Dangerous Near Goal - Wayne Gretzky (Mike Bossy, Rick Middleton)
What 3rd during his best ever offensive season? Thats suppose to be impressive

That proves nothing who'd they beat out Brian Sutter? Kent Nillsson

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05-10-2011, 02:38 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post


Good for him. Unless the Russian league is now the equivalent of the NHL (where most of the players we have drafted get their credentials), I'm not sure what that proves or how you would determine what that means in relation to playing against NHLers primarily.

I'm pretty sure that peoples view of the WHA/european leagues/ahl etc. in relation to the predominantly NHL draft varies quite a bit.

(but they are both still small )
http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm

Look at the names that he is ahead of. Just because you've never heard of him before this draft doesn't mean he was picked as the 2nd best Russian defenseman of all-time

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05-10-2011, 02:42 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Are you going to list these physical players? Any blueline with Robinson, Stanley, and Shmyr is far from undersized.
Robinson 6 4, 225
Kuzkin 5 11, 194
Schneider 5 11 192
Stanley, 6 1, 170
Shmyr, 5 11, 170
Davydov, 5 8, 158

vs.

Smith, 6 4, 220
Lapointe, 6ft, 205
Desjardins, 6 1, 205
Macoun, 6 2, 200
Ramsey, 6 3, 195
Ruotsalainen, 5 8, 170

Is this the part where you say Corson is one of the toughest NHLers ever, again?

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05-10-2011, 02:54 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Are you going to list these physical players? Any blueline with Robinson, Stanley, and Shmyr is far from undersized.

Davydov:

Was voted 4th best Russian all-time http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...s/rutop10i.htm
4th best Russian at the Olympics not of all time! But it does say Davydov is clutch at least...

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05-10-2011, 03:01 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Robinson 6 4, 225
Kuzkin 5 11, 194
Schneider 5 11 192
Stanley, 6 1, 170
Shmyr, 5 11, 170
Davydov, 5 8, 158

vs.

Smith, 6 4, 220
Lapointe, 6ft, 205
Desjardins, 6 1, 205
Macoun, 6 2, 200
Ramsey, 6 3, 195
Ruotsalainen, 5 8, 170

Is this the part where you say Corson is one of the toughest NHLers ever, again?


This is the part where I guess I have to point out the obvious again. Other than Lapointe (who played mostly in the 70's) all of your defenseman played from 1980 onwards.

Stanley ay 6'1 170 was one of the bigger defenseman in the 1950's
Kuzkin was a large defenseman for the 60's-early 70's


By you listing the defenseman it makes you look terrible. Take era into consideration and its safe to say my defense has the advantage for physical play.

Clearly Robinson is the toughest of the crop. Shmyr has to be up there as well.

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05-10-2011, 03:03 PM
  #138
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By you listing the defenseman it makes you look terrible. Take era into consideration and its safe to say my defense has the advantage for physical play.
Actually, it makes your defense look impish, which it is after the bigger three of them. I don't think a 10 year separation between most of their starts is going to make it up for you.

Even your own bio you linked calls Davydov "smaller than average."

In any case, physically we're going to bring it to you.

Gillies, Trottier, Robert (energizer bunny), McPhee, Poulin, Lebedev, Gelinas, Arnott, Vaive, Lapointe, Ramsey, Smith and Macoun are all very gritty/physically involved and some of them devastatingly so.

Combine that with the Al Arbour work ethic and physical/defensive style of play and you're going to have your hands full.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-10-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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05-10-2011, 03:33 PM
  #139
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Actually, it makes your defense look impish, which it is after the bigger three of them. I don't think a 10 year separation between most of their starts is going to make it up for you.

Even your own bio you linked calls Davydov "smaller than average."

In any case, physically we're going to bring it to you.

Gillies, Trottier, Robert (energizer bunny), McPhee, Poulin, Lebedev, Gelinas, Arnott, Vaive, Lapointe, Ramsey, Smith and Macoun are all very gritty/physically involved and some of them devastatingly so.

Combine that with the Al Arbour work ethic and physical/defensive style of play and you're going to have your hands full.
It also calls him a rock solid defenseman

Outside of Trottier and Lapointe, I guess "gritty" is a polite form of saying "have absolutely no offensive upside whatsoever"

Gelinas.....as in Martin Gelinas YIKES


Olmstead,Sittler,Geoffrion,Prentice,Berenson,Toppa zzini,Corson,Robinson,Stanleyand Shmyr match up very well in terms of tough physical play.

Is this the part where you say Gary Roberts as a player development coach comes into play and increases your teams toughness to an astronomical level. YOu would have been better off picking the arena...

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05-10-2011, 03:35 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
90s clearly had better goaltending at the top that 00s and it isn't close. Anyway. We should probably butt out now.
Boy, did we pick a good time to butt out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Davydov has 6 FIRST team All-stars and a second in the Russian League. What else could he have done? You say he played against a bunch of "amateurs" What else could he have possible done to prove himself? We are now punishing players because they were not able by law to play in North America?
So let's say that his all-star voting record was 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3 in the USSR. Given what we know of the era and relative strength of competition where would you translate this to in the NHL?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Robinson 6 4, 225
Kuzkin 5 11, 194
Schneider 5 11 192
Stanley, 6 1, 170
Shmyr, 5 11, 170
Davydov, 5 8, 158

vs.

Smith, 6 4, 220
Lapointe, 6ft, 205
Desjardins, 6 1, 205
Macoun, 6 2, 200
Ramsey, 6 3, 195
Ruotsalainen, 5 8, 170

Is this the part where you say Corson is one of the toughest NHLers ever, again?
- No doubt Schneider is small.
- Stanley was actually pretty big for the time.
- Kuzkin was above average.
- Davydov was small for his time, but it wasn't like being 5'8" today.
- Your defense corps is very modern, of course it will be bigger. I would say that after era considerations are made, you have about an inch advantage per D-man.

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05-10-2011, 03:39 PM
  #141
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mark, are you saying Gelinas is not gritty/competitive?

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05-10-2011, 03:45 PM
  #142
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
It also calls him a rock solid defenseman

Outside of Trottier and Lapointe, I guess "gritty" is a polite form of saying "have absolutely no offensive upside whatsoever"

Gelinas.....as in Martin Gelinas YIKES


Olmstead,Sittler,Geoffrion,Prentice,Berenson,Toppa zzini,Corson,Robinson,Stanleyand Shmyr match up very well in terms of tough physical play.

Is this the part where you say Gary Roberts as a player development coach comes into play and increases your teams toughness to an astronomical level. YOu would have been better off picking the arena...
Hey, good catch pulling Mathieu Schneider from your list before I had a chance to quote it. And you make fun of Gelinas who was a fast gritty player.

Do you even know your own players?

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05-10-2011, 03:46 PM
  #143
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Boy, did we pick a good time to butt out.



So let's say that his all-star voting record was 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 2, 3 in the USSR. Given what we know of the era and relative strength of competition where would you translate this to in the NHL?

It's tough to tell, but to say it is comparable to a 4th and 5th in Norris voting like Desjardins is not a long shot at all. Pair that voting record with him being selected as the 2nd best Russian defenseman of all-time in the |Olympics and thats a pretty stellar resume. Also factor in he is playing with his real life partner and Davydov to me is the best 2nd pairind dman in this series (also ahead of Ramsey)

Quote:
- No doubt Schneider is small.
- Stanley was actually pretty big for the time.
- Kuzkin was above average.
- Davydov was small for his time, but it wasn't like being 5'8" today.
- Your defense corps is very modern, of course it will be bigger. I would say that after era considerations are made, you have about an inch advantage per D-man.
His "toughness" advantage for defenseman arguement is just as weak as his goaltending advantage. Again grasping at straws.



I have pointed out main reasons why the Fireworks will win:

Huge 1st unit advantage
his 2nd line does have chemistry issues
Lebedev looks lost on that 3rd line
Ramsey is not a 1st unit ATD'r
That PP is very underwhelming


He's pointed out:

Goaltending advantage...
Toughness advantage on the point...
Litz and Ronty didnt play in the playoffs during their primes...

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05-10-2011, 03:48 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
It's tough to tell, but to say it is comparable to a 4th and 5th in Norris voting like Desjardins is not a long shot at all. Pair that voting record with him being selected as the 2nd best Russian defenseman of all-time in the |Olympics and thats a pretty stellar resume. Also factor in he is playing with his real life partner and Davydov to me is the best 2nd pairind dman in this series (also ahead of Ramsey)



His "toughness" advantage for defenseman arguement is just as weak as his goaltending advantage. Again grasping at straws.



I have pointed out main reasons why the Fireworks will win:

Huge 1st unit advantage
his 2nd line does have chemistry issues
Lebedev looks lost on that 3rd line
Ramsey is not a 1st unit ATD'r
That PP is very underwhelming


He's pointed out:

Goaltending advantage...
Toughness advantage on the point...
Litz and Ronty didnt play in the playoffs during their primes...
You just can't make this stuff up fast enough.

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05-10-2011, 03:48 PM
  #145
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Hey, good catch pulling Mathieu Schneider from your list before I had a chance to quote it. And you make fun of Gelinas who was a fast gritty player.

Do you even know your own players?
Gelinas has 9 pounds on Schneider, Check out the PIM totals Schenider is no Powder puff

His durability has to be a factor too, clearly he was in great shape if he played for over 22 seasons

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05-10-2011, 03:49 PM
  #146
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You just can't make this stuff up fast enough.
Is that your response?

What out of that post is incorrect?


Last edited by markrander87: 05-10-2011 at 05:19 PM.
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05-10-2011, 03:49 PM
  #147
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It's tough to tell, but to say it is comparable to a 4th and 5th in Norris voting like Desjardins is not a long shot at all.
A little while ago he was "miles" ahead. Now it isn't a long shot that he is comparable?

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05-10-2011, 03:51 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
Gelinas has 9 pounds on Schneider, Check out the PIM totals Schenider is no Powder puff

His durability has to be a factor too, clearly he was in great shape if he played for over 22 seasons
1) Schneider is NOT a physical player. Not even remotely close to a physical player. You should have watched him in some of those 22 seasons.

2) PIMs are no indication of anything.

In fact, being tough and punishing without taking a lot of penalties is an advantage.

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05-10-2011, 05:19 PM
  #149
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A little while ago he was "miles" ahead. Now it isn't a long shot that he is comparable?
I was being genorous, Davydov has the best track record for sure between the two.

Davydov was argueably the best Russian Defenseman during his playing time.
Where would you rank Desjardins for Canadian defenseman during his playing time?


Is what the "10th" best canadian defenseman of the 80's-90's better then the best Russian defenseman of the 60's? No chance

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05-10-2011, 05:20 PM
  #150
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Is that your response?

What out of that post is incorrect?
Still nothing regarding this?

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