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Benoit Pouliot: not tendered qualifying offer (June 27)

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06-26-2011, 08:46 PM
  #476
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I disagree, if a young player knows he will get benched everytime he makes a mistake, it will make him nervous and hesitant. I remember when Doughty was a rookie, he would cough up the puck left and right, but the coach still gave him a lot of playing time. That's how you develop rookies, we got lucky last year that we had a lot of D's injured, so he had to play PK a lot. If Markov and Gorges had not been injured, I think Martin would have screwed up PK as well (I think he benched for 3 games, and PK took a while to recover from that).
So you're suggestion is to send guys like Cammy or Gionto to the bottom 6 or press box just so Pouliot might develop? Glad you are only a poster and not involved with the team.

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06-26-2011, 08:47 PM
  #477
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Perhaps Boucher is equal or better than JM...we have seen a plethora of calamities with coaching choices, our 5 on 5 troubles are not entirely the fault of JM in my view the panthers had a weak team and JM managed to keep it competitive...if we had size and/or more talent you would see better 5 v 5 results...

Btw some factors our 5 v5 was weak last year

Gomez...having another sub par year

Pleky over worked on def. Duties

Markov + Georges plus all those other injuries

Aging defence...overworked

Pouliot...and all other forwards who at one time another for any given reason neglect def assignments

Again all this blame on JM rather than players...coaches always get all the blame and the players free passes...Lindy Ruff being one of the few exceptions that come to mind

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06-26-2011, 08:48 PM
  #478
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Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
Martin destroyed Patches confidence last year (which he also did with O'Byrne), Patches developed in Hamilton, not Montreal, and certainly not under Martin.

Patches even stated he preferred staying in Hamilton (developing) instead of being Martin's whipping boy (i.e. relegated to the 3rd line whenever he screwed up).

It's funny how easy people forget that last year Patches was being labelled a bust, and probably half of the people would have been happy to trade him for a second rounder.

If Pouliot is let go, he will just join a long list of players Montreal gave up on because of Martin's inability to let young players play, instead of benching them everytime they make a mistake. Yet Spacek, Gomez, Gill, ... get free passes for all their screw ups.

This is Martin's last year as coach, he won't have Muller to save his ass anymore. Has anyone heard any habs player say anything nice about Martin? I just hear the player's compliments for Muller.
The NHL is not a development league. It is not JM's job to let young players play poorly in the hope that they improve. It is his job to put them in a position where they can help the team - otherwise, they sit or go back to Hamilton. If you are going to play for the Montreal Canadiens, you have to help the team win games.

The last time the Habs tried to develop a player in the NHL was Latendresse, and that was bad for everyone involved.

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06-26-2011, 08:51 PM
  #479
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Not last year, He was worse than Pouliot.
I think people should decide if Lats became better or not after he left us. It would help the argument overall.

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06-26-2011, 08:52 PM
  #480
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
So you're suggestion is to send guys like Cammy or Gionto to the bottom 6 or press box just so Pouliot might develop? Glad you are only a poster and not involved with the team.
So you extrapolate, let Pouliot play, to bench Gionta and Cammy?

Believe it or not, a hockey team needs more than 1 forward, so if Pouliot plays, so can Gionta and Cammy.

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06-26-2011, 09:04 PM
  #481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
The NHL is not a development league. It is not JM's job to let young players play poorly in the hope that they improve. It is his job to put them in a position where they can help the team - otherwise, they sit or go back to Hamilton. If you are going to play for the Montreal Canadiens, you have to help the team win games.

The last time the Habs tried to develop a player in the NHL was Latendresse, and that was bad for everyone involved.
I didn't say let the players play if they play poorly, I just said let them play if they make a mistake, everyone makes mistakes. Good coaches point out the mistake, and then encourage the player to get out there and play to his best abilities.

Martin benches the player and gives him the silent treatment.

If I was a player, I would want to play for a coach that believes in me and gives me a chance to redeem myself.

What's even worse is that he doesn't treat all the players the same way, if Gomez screws up, he rarely misses a shift. But if AK46, Pouliot, Eller screw up, it's a completely different result.

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06-26-2011, 09:04 PM
  #482
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Thanks Roulin...I agree with your points and point of view.

Moreover...rewarding a player ice time after errors needs to be done very cautiously, too much slack...a player will become complacent and reduce his determination to excel and emulate higher levels, I like all realists...side with management that elicit, force, get the most from their players but rewarding errors is a slippery slope this is the nhl, mistakes cost goals, goals costs losses and losses cost cups so it is quite simple really...

Those who say well veteran player x or y gets more free passes than youngin x or y...again there is a logical and rational reason for this...other realists have pointed them out already...veterans have less to prove and more importantly are all around more solid, than younger players...this is why spacek who led the team in +- gets more ice time than weber or why gomez more than pouliot...btw gomez was only minus 15 the way most of you make it as if it was - 25 or -50....gomez for all his weaker points was perhaps our premier forward for puck carrying...sooo gained yardage he was fundamental in that aspect, maybe he would lose it stupidly after a stupid shot that was more of a hard pass but at least it was done in the attacking third, BP lost the puck more during D situations than Gomez...at least if memory serves cos gomer was flying out of the zone with that puck, just his final decision is what made him look so poor in form this year

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06-26-2011, 09:05 PM
  #483
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcal64 View Post
So you extrapolate, let Pouliot play, to bench Gionta and Cammy?

Believe it or not, a hockey team needs more than 1 forward, so if Pouliot plays, so can Gionta and Cammy.
Well if we only play our young guys in the top 6, there is no room for Cammy or Gionta. Pouliot is the worst player on the team, and his roster/contract status reflect that.

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06-26-2011, 09:17 PM
  #484
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Well if we only play our young guys in the top 6, there is no room for Cammy or Gionta. Pouliot is the worst player on the team, and his roster/contract status reflect that.
According to you he's the worst player, I think he's much better than Pyatt, Darche, Moen, Gomez, Desharnais, Halpern, White.

Pouliot is a good player that just needs to get his confidence, it's strange that everyone is clamoring for the Habs to get bigger, yet we want to get rid of one of the few big forwards we have.

Just remember that last year Patches was a bust, but this year he's a hero. Just give Pouliot one more year, he's shown flashes of talent.

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06-26-2011, 09:19 PM
  #485
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Originally Posted by giovannicanella View Post
Thanks Roulin...I agree with your points and point of view.

Moreover...rewarding a player ice time after errors needs to be done very cautiously, too much slack...a player will become complacent and reduce his determination to excel and emulate higher levels, I like all realists...side with management that elicit, force, get the most from their players but rewarding errors is a slippery slope this is the nhl, mistakes cost goals, goals costs losses and losses cost cups so it is quite simple really...

Those who say well veteran player x or y gets more free passes than youngin x or y...again there is a logical and rational reason for this...other realists have pointed them out already...veterans have less to prove and more importantly are all around more solid, than younger players...this is why spacek who led the team in +- gets more ice time than weber or why gomez more than pouliot...btw gomez was only minus 15 the way most of you make it as if it was - 25 or -50....gomez for all his weaker points was perhaps our premier forward for puck carrying...sooo gained yardage he was fundamental in that aspect, maybe he would lose it stupidly after a stupid shot that was more of a hard pass but at least it was done in the attacking third, BP lost the puck more during D situations than Gomez...at least if memory serves cos gomer was flying out of the zone with that puck, just his final decision is what made him look so poor in form this year
So explain to me why BP was a +2, and Gomez was a -15?

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06-26-2011, 09:32 PM
  #486
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Hey, I commend you for praising BP where praise is due.
For added context I have no issues with BP as a player...however he should follow Darche and Desharnais examples everytime he feels frustrated..for being benched or scratched or whatever...

Sergei K and Grabo where good players but immature and unprofessional and it cost them, BP has to mind that he does not become another casualty that's why I try to emphasive for all of BP good n bad qualities he needs to go the Desharnais and Darche route or else he will end up another player we quote unquote lost or wasted but truly we mustnt forget the onus of responsibility is on the player more than coach because players have contracts heck they get paid more than coaches and yet there job is so simple in 10 years a japanese or german robot can do it better....This reminds me of the whole tipping debate...people have a job, they have to do it, end of story, or else heads will role, and btw if you feel gomer was given too many chances when and if we give up on him we will say ah well we tried everything we did to save him...same with nhl policy to save dieing lost cause clubs etc it has a morale and principle responsibility to uphold

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06-26-2011, 10:36 PM
  #487
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PG must be thinking, do I want the big fast winger who drops the gloves and has a laser beam slap shot. Or am I getting the guy who trips on the blueline three times a shift.

Such a frustrating player, he could be so awesome. Hope he gets one more year and the coaching staff realizes that showing a little bit of confidence can go along way.

Could see him head down to somewhere like Tampa Bay and have Boucher turn Pouliot into a star. We'll see.

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06-26-2011, 10:43 PM
  #488
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Considering that since Martin took over the team, the Habs are amongst the worst offensive teams in the NHL, I'd say that Martin is not getting the best out of his players. I still feel that it was a huge mistake to let Boucher walk in favour of Martin. I'd be curious to see what Boucher could do with Pouliot. I truly mean that.
Boucher walked in favor of Boucher and nothing else. It was also a good thing the organization didn't stand in his way.

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06-26-2011, 11:02 PM
  #489
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So you're suggestion is to send guys like Cammy or Gionto to the bottom 6 or press box just so Pouliot might develop? Glad you are only a poster and not involved with the team.
Hockey is not a zero sum game. Just because Pouliot would be given a chance to play through his mistakes does not mean Cammy or Gionta are moved to the bottom 6.

When Pouliot made a mistake (or was involved in a fight), his ice time was slashed dramatically. He was a 17 goal scorer and was averaging around 15 minutes TOI. He was also dishing out assists. What Martin should have done is let Pouliot continue to play without punishing him for something that every NHL forward does.....making a mistake.

We lost to Boston in Game 7 by a single goal in OT. Would it have helped to have a confident Pouliot on the ice or a beat down Pouliot sitting in the press box watching our team struggle to get a puck past Thomas?

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06-26-2011, 11:04 PM
  #490
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Hockey is not a zero sum game. Just because Pouliot would be given a chance to play through his mistakes does not mean Cammy or Gionta are moved to the bottom 6.

When Pouliot made a mistake (or was involved in a fight), his ice time was slashed dramatically. He was a 17 goal scorer and was averaging around 15 minutes TOI. He was also dishing out assists. What Martin should have done is let Pouliot continue to play without punishing him for something that every NHL forward does.....making a mistake.

We lost to Boston in Game 7 by a single goal in OT. Would it have helped to have a confident Pouliot on the ice or a beat down Pouliot sitting in the press box watching our team struggle to get a puck past Thomas?
Seeing as Pouliot was absolutely dreadful when he did play in the series, I think it is self evident that we do not see game 7 overtime if he continued to play.

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06-26-2011, 11:05 PM
  #491
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Originally Posted by giovannicanella View Post
Perhaps Boucher is equal or better than JM...we have seen a plethora of calamities with coaching choices, our 5 on 5 troubles are not entirely the fault of JM in my view the panthers had a weak team and JM managed to keep it competitive...if we had size and/or more talent you would see better 5 v 5 results...

Btw some factors our 5 v5 was weak last year

Gomez...having another sub par year

Pleky over worked on def. Duties

Markov + Georges plus all those other injuries

Aging defence...overworked

Pouliot...and all other forwards who at one time another for any given reason neglect def assignments

Again all this blame on JM rather than players...coaches always get all the blame and the players free passes...Lindy Ruff being one of the few exceptions that come to mind
If you have a player (Gomez) that cannot score and turns the puck over continually and you continue to give him 20+ minutes of ice time, yes, I blame the coach.

Even more so when you have the same coach benching players for mistakes that Gomez committed twice as often without any reprecussions. That leads to a huge disconnect on any team, regardless of what sport it is.

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06-26-2011, 11:06 PM
  #492
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So explain to me why BP was a +2, and Gomez was a -15?
Pouliot was given sheltered minutes against players unlikely to score.

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06-26-2011, 11:07 PM
  #493
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Seeing as Pouliot was absolutely dreadful when he did play in the series, I think it is self evident that we do not see game 7 overtime if he continued to play.
Faulty premise.

We saw the beaten down Pouliot in the Series. I am talking about the Pouliot that was playing AND scoring for us until the February 17-20 fiascos.

HUGE difference in the confidence and ability levels.

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06-26-2011, 11:07 PM
  #494
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According to you he's the worst player, I think he's much better than Pyatt, Darche, Moen, Gomez, Desharnais, Halpern, White.

Pouliot is a good player that just needs to get his confidence, it's strange that everyone is clamoring for the Habs to get bigger, yet we want to get rid of one of the few big forwards we have.

Just remember that last year Patches was a bust, but this year he's a hero. Just give Pouliot one more year, he's shown flashes of talent.
What has Pouliot ever done to warrant being as good as those guys? That is pure lunacy. Pouliot brings nothing to the table besides a sense of entitlement and lazyness.

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06-26-2011, 11:10 PM
  #495
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Faulty premise.

We saw the beaten down Pouliot in the Series. I am talking about the Pouliot that was playing AND scoring for us until the February 17-20 fiascos.

HUGE difference in the confidence and ability levels.
Pouliot had a 2 week hot streak. If he was so good, being benched wouldn't set him back. If anything, the fact that he is unraveled so easily is even more reason to bench him.

Pouliot is in the same class of player as guys like Tanguay, Ryder, SKost and Grabovski. Players who simply quit on the team when the going got tough. The only thing I'll give to Pouliot over those guys is that at least he never physically walked out on the team, he just mentally checked out.

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06-26-2011, 11:16 PM
  #496
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Pouliot had a 2 week hot streak. If he was so good, being benched wouldn't set him back. If anything, the fact that he is unraveled so easily is even more reason to bench him.

Pouliot is in the same class of player as guys like Tanguay, Ryder, SKost and Grabovski. Players who simply quit on the team when the going got tough. The only thing I'll give to Pouliot over those guys is that at least he never physically walked out on the team, he just mentally checked out.
Again, another faulty premise.

You are trying to make the case about Pouliot that "all NHL players are exactly the same mentally".

I dont know where you work but I can bet with 100% certainty that you will not have everyone in your workplace motivated by the exact same things and respond in the exact same way to coaching or managing.

NHL hockey players are talented and high paid athletes. But deep down inside, they are still human beings. One size does not fit all. And shame on the idiot coach who does not recognize that reality. All he is doing is setting the player, himself as a coach and most importantly, his team..........up for failure.

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06-26-2011, 11:20 PM
  #497
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Again, another faulty premise.

You are trying to make the case about Pouliot that "all NHL players are exactly the same mentally".

I dont know where you work but I can bet with 100% certainty that you will not have everyone in your workplace motivated by the exact same things and respond in the exact same way to coaching or managing.

NHL hockey players are talented and high paid athletes. But deep down inside, they are still human beings. One size does not fit all. And shame on the idiot coach who does not recognize that reality. All he is doing is setting the player, himself as a coach and most importantly, his team..........up for failure.
Its not Martin's job to pander to some emotionally challenged 25 year old. Its Martin's job to win hockey games and do what's best for the team as a whole.

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06-26-2011, 11:25 PM
  #498
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Again, another faulty premise.

You are trying to make the case about Pouliot that "all NHL players are exactly the same mentally".

I dont know where you work but I can bet with 100% certainty that you will not have everyone in your workplace motivated by the exact same things and respond in the exact same way to coaching or managing.

NHL hockey players are talented and high paid athletes. But deep down inside, they are still human beings. One size does not fit all. And shame on the idiot coach who does not recognize that reality. All he is doing is setting the player, himself as a coach and most importantly, his team..........up for failure.
A player has to do his part.

Honestly, if Pouliot came early to the rink to work hard or left late, checked tape of himself, I'm pretty sure the coach would go out of his way to help him out.

We see the same problems over and over with Pouliot. Lazy penalties, overall poor effort. Coasting on talent gets you through a lot, but the NHL is a league where the best play.

Gauthier and Martin decided to go with Price when they saw he put the work in on a leap of faith. Pouliot would get ice-time if he gave a flying ****.

People and coddling underachievers

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06-26-2011, 11:44 PM
  #499
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
Considering that since Martin took over the team, the Habs are amongst the worst offensive teams in the NHL, I'd say that Martin is not getting the best out of his players. I still feel that it was a huge mistake to let Boucher walk in favour of Martin. I'd be curious to see what Boucher could do with Pouliot. I truly mean that.
Well you coach the team you're given. Since Martin's taken over the Habs have improved their 5 on 5 play, their goals against and their possession stats.

I mean Tampa on the year was +7, Montreal on the year was also +7 with some pretty significant injury problems. I think the team does need to get better offensively but none of our key players with a significant sample have seen significant drops in their per 82 game numbers since playing for Martin vs. their previous 2 seasons (Gomez mostly, but a guy like Plekanec has seen an increase).

Maybe the team Gainey built is just devoid of scoring and we have to play this way to survive?

In the case of Pouliot, he's a player who definitely lacks hockey sense. His decision making with and without the puck is bad and it has been his whole life. At the junior level his natural skill level won out but in the AHL and with both NHL franchises it's apparent, even at the best of times. Best case he'll need sheltered minutes.

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06-26-2011, 11:50 PM
  #500
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Its not Martin's job to pander to some emotionally challenged 25 year old. Its Martin's job to win hockey games and do what's best for the team as a whole.
And how many Stanley Cups has Jacques Martin won?

Martin does not believe in pandering (I call it ensuring that EVERY player on the team is focused and confident) and he has the record of failure to show for it.

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