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Old
05-23-2011, 10:27 AM
  #351
barrytrotzsneck
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I understand and agree that in all likelihood, our bed is made with Erat, and that's not a terrible thing, but I do think that if we really dedicated ourselves to making a chance, we could snag a couple of picks and prospects, which could then be used either directly (in trade) or indirectly (to soften the blow of trading already possessed picks and prospects) to make a deal that makes us a better team, overall, than we are with Erat.

But...like I say, it's all just early-summer doldrums talking. Erat is likely to be here at least until the last year or two of his contract and...again...I can live with that.

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05-23-2011, 10:40 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
I understand and agree that in all likelihood, our bed is made with Erat, and that's not a terrible thing, but I do think that if we really dedicated ourselves to making a chance, we could snag a couple of picks and prospects, which could then be used either directly (in trade) or indirectly (to soften the blow of trading already possessed picks and prospects) to make a deal that makes us a better team, overall, than we are with Erat.

But...like I say, it's all just early-summer doldrums talking. Erat is likely to be here at least until the last year or two of his contract and...again...I can live with that.
It's actually kind of funny when we think about it though, Erat and Legwand will be our elder statesmen this year. With Sully likely gone and Dumont on the way out and who knows what's up with Bouillon, those two will be our oldest players. Who thought those guys would ever last this long with our team and then be two of our leaders out there. Strange to say the least.

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Old
05-23-2011, 10:41 AM
  #353
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I think our offense needs a face lift, and there are only a few ways to do that:

1) Radulov comes back.
-Personally, I question the legitimacy of this ever happening.
2) The forward is developed internally.
Looking at our prospect base, Beck could emerge as a dynamic forward, Watson and Budish have potential to be 20-30 goal scorers (more so Watson), and Wilson has the talent and size to be a 60 point forward. None of these forwards has the game-breaking talent that I think we need. Frankly, the two most likely to breakout and be legitimate 60 point are Beck and Wilson, but will they be the offensive changing forwards that we need? I am not sold on that. On the roster itself, SK is the only player that may have another gear or room to grow offensively, but I think the season he had this year will be around his baseline year-to-year. To a lesser extent, it is possible that Latta, Borque, Smith, Cehlin, O'Reilly, etc. could all be those game-changing talents, but again, I think the more likely scenario is that they turn into 2-3rd line tweeners rather than offensive stars.
3) Free agency.
Right now, it does not appear that we have the financial capability to acquire a long-term fixture via free agency. If budgetary concerns are alleviated and the Predators spend over the mid-point or close to the cap limit, then there is ample room to add one or two forwards. As it stands, the NP can only realistically look at a 1 year 4 million or so acquisition without moving Lombardi or Dumont.
4) Trade a higher salary forward and then acquire an additional forward either through (3) free agency or (4) a trade.
I think this may be the most plausible scenario. First of all, let me state that I truly like the players on this team. I have no grudge or desire to see any particular player moved. If the Predators were a cap-spending team, this option would be entirely unnecessary. As it stands, it has to be viewed as the most likely way to shift the offensive nature of this club. The two biggest culprits are, naturally, the two highest paid forwards - David Legwand and Martin Erat. Each has shown playoff ability. Each has shown that they scan score at a consistent pace over the course of a season (Erat far more than Legwand, with Legwand being better in the playoffs). Each can and should be a solid complimentary player to an effective offense. Unfortunately, they are our cornerstones. I believe we need something different. While both appear to be important figures in the locker room, sometimes changes have to occur to take the next step, and sometimes the biggest mistake is refusing to make a move out of fear. If I had to choose, I would move Erat. My reasoning is simple: his actual pay exceeds his cap hit significantly (6 million vs. 4.5 million cap hit) and the replaceable role of wingers vs. centers in this offense. If time allows, I will try and look at the forwards that could be available if such a scenario were to occur.
5) Trade for a younger forward.
This is an entirely plausible scenario. However, the Predators should be operating with the eye to win now and the future. They are not rebuilding. A young forward acquisition that could change this offense would need to be ready to step in immediately and contribute. He would also likely be due a raise very soon. There are precious few forwards out there of this ilk, but it would be worth a look (similar to option 4) to see which forwards are at least available. Again, if given time, I will try and see what is possible.

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Old
05-23-2011, 10:42 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
BTN, you mention Ryan and Perry in your comparison to Erat and all their salaries. Fair analysis. Where are the guys that can make $3 million a year that will equal his production that a team would be willing to trade?

As far as NJ scoffing at the deal offered for Parise, throw in Ellis in addition to Wilson, Erat and Franson and I think we're in the ball park. The kicker would be Erat's salary. At that point, they'd be better off keeping Parise. Remember, the Devils almost made the playoffs after a horrendous start and with Parise out of the lineup for most of the year. As valuable as Parise is, they could afford his loss more than we think.

Also, the reason I posted it here is so we could discuss the trade and not be trolls like other fans are. It's funny, you try and do the right thing by posting in a team thread and you still get blasted for discussing ideas.
Off the top of my head, just throwing out a couple of names that are comparable in production for less money and might be good "fits," and could also be available:

Chris Kunitz
Scott Hartnell
Ville Leino
Stephen Weiss
Erik Cole
Clarke MacArthur

To name a few.

Now, obviously, there are some question marks for some of those guys, (Can Leino and MacArthur repeat their breakout seasons, or were they anomalies? for example) but if you have these guys on shorter contracts, they become easier to move, should something NOT work out. We're in a similar position to a team like Edmonton with Shawn Horcoff or Sheldon Souray. They've tried to move both of these guys over the last year, but the circumstances around their contracts won't allow for it.

I think Erat and Legwand wouldn't sting so much if we weren't also trying to figure out what to do with a year of JP dumont for 4 million dollars (the third such year after a now regretful extension). Or wondering if Matthew Lombardi will ever play again, or if we're just flushing 3.5 down the toilet for two more years. Or if Hornqvist's 30 goal season was the real Patric, or if he followed it up with what we should expect--20 goals for 3 million dollars. We have so much money sunk into these contracts, it just starts to wear on a fan. A lot of that is bad luck\unfortunate circumstances, but it doesn't make the pill any easier to swallow, especially when year after year, we have the same problems, and have to continually hope for a 500K player to do something unexpected, a la SK74 or Joel Ward...or Marcel Goc...or Andreas Johansson...or Scott Walker...or Sergei Krivokrasov.

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Old
05-23-2011, 10:53 AM
  #355
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I was actually hoping for Weiss at the trade deadline instead of Fisher to be quite honest. Younger, faster, more offense and a decent salary. I like Fisher but I think Weiss would've been a better fit. I bet Florida was asking for more than what we gave Ottawa and that he's also a key ingredient in their rebuild.

Leino might be the only other one I'd go after. Kunitz is staying in Pittsburgh as they can't afford to lose his offense. Hartnell isn't coming back with his history with Trotz. MacArthur is interesting but one good season is something we need to stay away from. I don't think Cole is going anywhere either and I think he's seen his better days. Moving Erat to get anyone of these guys is robbing Peter to pay Paul. If we could add one without losing Erat, I wouldn't be opposed to that at all.

I think we have to be careful what we wish for sometimes. I agree some tweaks need to be made but I'd rather tweak than make a major change. I'd also like to see what a guy like Ellis can do for the PP to be quite honest but I'd really like to see an assistant coach come in with some offensive flair in his coaching to help pep up the PP.

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Old
05-23-2011, 12:15 PM
  #356
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I love Rinne and what he's brought to the team and this may be thought of as blasphemy for even saying it but what about trading him? Now before you all go, the guy has lost his mind, let me propose the scenario.

Trade Rinne to find some much needed offense. Nothing less than a top 3 forward should be accepted for Rinne to be dealt. A sniper should be the object of what we're acquiring. 40+ goal scorer is imperative and someone with a history of doing this is recommended. Now here's the fun part, what are we going to do in goal? Well, this all goes down if and only if we come to an agreement with Vokoun in free agency to sign here all these years later. The guy can still get it done in net, knows the team, the team knows him and goalies on the open market aren't going to net huge contracts. Good thing is, we'd only need him for a few years or until we felt Lindback or someone else in the system was ready to take the reins.

A few things this does, it improves us even though we lose a great goalie. Vokoun is no slouch and we know Vokoun has the ability to steal games on his own and be a workhorse if need be. Secondly, it gives us some scoring punch up front which we sorely lack. It also appeases Weber in one of his requests for more offense. It should hopefully improve our PP too if the coaching and the player are the right fits.

So, not trying to go back to my original Parise idea but this does present some interesting thoughts. NJ needs a successor to Brodeur and Rinne would be just that. Parise is a player that would bring the offense, grit and heart we love in a player. He has a non stop motor and is an 80-90 point a year player. He's also friends with Suter which would bode well in trying to re-sign Suter. I'm sure there are others out there that would fit this scenario as well but Parise was the first one that came to mind.

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Old
05-23-2011, 12:21 PM
  #357
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Goaltender trade value is historically rather low. The only folks who I can think of that would go for such are the Flyers, and I don't think you'd be getting a top-3 forward for Rinne, even from them.

Yes, there's all the rumors about Jeff Carter, but it's far more economical and sensible for them to trade one of their overpriced 3-4 guys, like Carle. (And Rinne straight up is unlikely to fetch Carter in any case.)

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05-23-2011, 12:23 PM
  #358
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viqsi View Post
Goaltender trade value is historically rather low. The only folks who I can think of that would go for such are the Flyers, and I don't think you'd be getting a top-3 forward for Rinne, even from them.

Yes, there's all the rumors about Jeff Carter, but it's far more economical and sensible for them to trade one of their overpriced 3-4 guys, like Carle.
How about we throw in Erat plus Dumont as a salary dump for both teams?

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Old
05-23-2011, 12:25 PM
  #359
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The risk there is that Vokoun is 37 years old, and that even if he can play at a high level for another 2 years, we don't have anything in the pipeline to replace him. 5 or 6 years...or a 33 or 34 year old goaltender is one thing, but do you see Anders Lindback, Jeremy Smith, or Mark Dekanich as being able to take the reins in two years? I don't think I do...

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05-23-2011, 12:37 PM
  #360
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Originally Posted by barrytrotzsneck View Post
The risk there is that Vokoun is 37 years old, and that even if he can play at a high level for another 2 years, we don't have anything in the pipeline to replace him. 5 or 6 years...or a 33 or 34 year old goaltender is one thing, but do you see Anders Lindback, Jeremy Smith, or Mark Dekanich as being able to take the reins in two years? I don't think I do...
Vokoun is 34, will be 35 when the season starts. As long as we keep Korn on I don't think developing goalies is an issue. Lindback looked like he could handle the load in the limited time he had this year. Similar style to Rinne and there was a reason he was the backup and not Deks. The team felt comfortable with him and felt he could handle it. Remember, Vokoun was nothing until he came here and went on to be pretty good once he left. Ellis and Mason were nothing until they came here and are nothing again since they've left. I'd take my chances with TV in net and a forward that can put up 40+ a season up front with the team we have now.

You have to give to get something and while we give up a great goalie, we'd be getting something in return we sorely lack and everyone complains about around here. I don't want to see us get rid of Rinne but if you put a proposal together to get anything of value it either starts with Weber, Suter or Rinne and Rinne can be replaced I think more easily without a huge dropoff, Vokoun, than if we trade Weber or Suter and we try to replace them from within.

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Old
05-23-2011, 12:40 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Vokoun is 34, will be 35 when the season starts. As long as we keep Korn on I don't think developing goalies is an issue. Lindback looked like he could handle the load in the limited time he had this year. Similar style to Rinne and there was a reason he was the backup and not Deks. The team felt comfortable with him and felt he could handle it. Remember, Vokoun was nothing until he came here and went on to be pretty good once he left. Ellis and Mason were nothing until they came here and are nothing again since they've left. I'd take my chances with TV in net and a forward that can put up 40+ a season up front with the team we have now.

You have to give to get something and while we give up a great goalie, we'd be getting something in return we sorely lack and everyone complains about around here. I don't want to see us get rid of Rinne but if you put a proposal together to get anything of value it either starts with Weber, Suter or Rinne and Rinne can be replaced I think more easily without a huge dropoff, Vokoun, than if we trade Weber or Suter and we try to replace them from within.
That's assuming that Vokoun can be signed for reasonable dollars, and he doesn't go for the highest bidder (which there are going to be come July 1st).

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05-23-2011, 12:42 PM
  #362
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That's assuming that Vokoun can be signed for reasonable dollars, and he doesn't go for the highest bidder (which there are going to be come July 1st).
Read my earlier post. This was all contingent on him getting a decent deal that wasn't going to kill our cap space.

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05-23-2011, 12:45 PM
  #363
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Originally Posted by glenngineer View Post
Vokoun is 34, will be 35 when the season starts. As long as we keep Korn on I don't think developing goalies is an issue. Lindback looked like he could handle the load in the limited time he had this year. Similar style to Rinne and there was a reason he was the backup and not Deks. The team felt comfortable with him and felt he could handle it. Remember, Vokoun was nothing until he came here and went on to be pretty good once he left. Ellis and Mason were nothing until they came here and are nothing again since they've left. I'd take my chances with TV in net and a forward that can put up 40+ a season up front with the team we have now.

You have to give to get something and while we give up a great goalie, we'd be getting something in return we sorely lack and everyone complains about around here. I don't want to see us get rid of Rinne but if you put a proposal together to get anything of value it either starts with Weber, Suter or Rinne and Rinne can be replaced I think more easily without a huge dropoff, Vokoun, than if we trade Weber or Suter and we try to replace them from within.
for some reason i thought vokoun was a 74 birthday like sullivan since they were from the same draft (94).

I understand you have to give to get, but even going from Rinne to Vokoun, there's a drop, and i'm not confident enough in Lindback yet(who seems to have Chris Mason-itis -- "how did he save that?!" one minute, "How did he miss that?!" the next).

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05-23-2011, 12:54 PM
  #364
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for some reason i thought vokoun was a 74 birthday like sullivan since they were from the same draft (94).

I understand you have to give to get, but even going from Rinne to Vokoun, there's a drop, and i'm not confident enough in Lindback yet(who seems to have Chris Mason-itis -- "how did he save that?!" one minute, "How did he miss that?!" the next).
Rinne has some of those issues as well sometimes. And give Lindback two years, I think he'd be fine. He'd also have a good mentor.

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05-23-2011, 12:56 PM
  #365
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I love Rinne and what he's brought to the team and this may be thought of as blasphemy for even saying it but what about trading him? Now before you all go, the guy has lost his mind, let me propose the scenario.

Trade Rinne to find some much needed offense. Nothing less than a top 3 forward should be accepted for Rinne to be dealt. A sniper should be the object of what we're acquiring. 40+ goal scorer is imperative and someone with a history of doing this is recommended. Now here's the fun part, what are we going to do in goal? Well, this all goes down if and only if we come to an agreement with Vokoun in free agency to sign here all these years later. The guy can still get it done in net, knows the team, the team knows him and goalies on the open market aren't going to net huge contracts. Good thing is, we'd only need him for a few years or until we felt Lindback or someone else in the system was ready to take the reins.

A few things this does, it improves us even though we lose a great goalie. Vokoun is no slouch and we know Vokoun has the ability to steal games on his own and be a workhorse if need be. Secondly, it gives us some scoring punch up front which we sorely lack. It also appeases Weber in one of his requests for more offense. It should hopefully improve our PP too if the coaching and the player are the right fits.

So, not trying to go back to my original Parise idea but this does present some interesting thoughts. NJ needs a successor to Brodeur and Rinne would be just that. Parise is a player that would bring the offense, grit and heart we love in a player. He has a non stop motor and is an 80-90 point a year player. He's also friends with Suter which would bode well in trying to re-sign Suter. I'm sure there are others out there that would fit this scenario as well but Parise was the first one that came to mind.
Your just bored to come up with an idea like that. Rinne has elevated his game to the elite status and you want to trade him for offense. Fix on side by depleting the other doesn't make sense. Two things to consider great goalies don't grow on trees. Rinne is better than Vokoun ever was even though Vokoun was good he was never great. He never stole a game in the playoffs. Rinne almost stole a series. Your love for Parise is getting to be a man crush. Parise would make us a cup contender if he come in here and performs. You act like we can't sign our elite players like Weber and Suter and Rinne and get offense we can.

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05-23-2011, 01:35 PM
  #366
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Your just bored to come up with an idea like that. Rinne has elevated his game to the elite status and you want to trade him for offense. Fix on side by depleting the other doesn't make sense. Two things to consider great goalies don't grow on trees. Rinne is better than Vokoun ever was even though Vokoun was good he was never great. He never stole a game in the playoffs. Rinne almost stole a series. Your love for Parise is getting to be a man crush. Parise would make us a cup contender if he come in here and performs. You act like we can't sign our elite players like Weber and Suter and Rinne and get offense we can.
I'm bored? Man crush on Parise? Wow. Thanks for the analysis Dr. Freud.

Vokoun was never great? Are you kidding me? Did you watch the team he had in front of him when he was here and how he stole games for us on a consistent basis? As far as your playoff comments go, the first year we got into the playoffs we were a number 8 seed against Detroit, the number 1 seed. Did you really expect us to win that series with the team we had? He was not the problem in that series. 2.02 GAA and a .939% save percentage. Pretty impressive against a team that outmanned us severely. Then we go up against a San Jose team that basically pushed us around. His stats weren't amazing but they weren't horrendous either.

So tell me how are we going to get offense? Name a free agent we can land this offseason that fills our offensive needs/holes? Name a trade we can pull off that will land us a 40+ goals a year scorer from amongst the players we have? I actually put names and ideas out there but people will criticize which is their right to do but unless you come up with a solution, don't criticize without a counter proposal. I love answers like your that say we can do this and that but what is this and that?

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05-23-2011, 02:24 PM
  #367
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05-23-2011, 02:27 PM
  #368
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Vokes was good, real good on some nights, but I wouldn't call him great either. He approached the level of elite goaltender but I don't think he ever made it.

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05-23-2011, 02:29 PM
  #369
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If by "most won't be satisfied" you mean "most on HF won't be satisfied" I don't see the NHL ever winning haha. Every poster on these boards could be given $1,000,000 just for making a post, and half of the boards would cry "not enough, Bettman! Way to try to buy my support!" and the other half would cry "poor asset management. I don't want your charity anyway!"

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05-23-2011, 02:32 PM
  #370
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Vokes was good, real good on some nights, but I wouldn't call him great either. He approached the level of elite goaltender but I don't think he ever made it.
Has he ever had a team in front of him that would make him elite? While here we were approaching a good team but never had the elite defense that Rinne has in front of him and while in Flordia, well, I won't even go there.

While watching some of the SJ/Van series I'm even more impressed by what Suter/Weber did to the twins and keeping them at bay. Really makes you appreciate the work they did, even if they themselves weren't offensive weapons.

The question is, are we better with Rinne and the current roster and a mid salaried free agent forward or are we better with Vokoun and a proven 40+ goal scorer going forward? Just throwing out options and while Rinne is fantastic, I wonder if additional scoring makes goaltending less of an issue for us, especially the way Korn is with grooming goaltenders. That's also assuming we re-sign Korn, which I think is the biggest move we need to make this offseason.

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05-23-2011, 02:33 PM
  #371
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And all the times he let us down. Granted one of those was health related but you know, that's part of the package.

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05-23-2011, 02:51 PM
  #372
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And all the times he let us down. Granted one of those was health related but you know, that's part of the package.
Hasn't been an issue the last 5 or 6 years, I think they've got that under control. When did he let us down?

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05-23-2011, 03:29 PM
  #373
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it seems as if one of the radio interviews that poile did within the last couple of weeks he talked about free agency and forwards. as i recall, he seemed to say there weren't a lot of affordable forwards in free agency (for us) and that depth at forward would have to come from trades.

so , it seems as if he would be looking for a trade. with who and for who....didn't really say.

i don't know when he gives up on lombardy for next year. maybe he already has.

i would venture he's dealing with weber............and it seems as if weber's agent is also someone elses....... maybe sergei or was it someone else? i'm not sure, but it was someone else on the team that we are going to have a new contract for.....

and what about franky? is he working out yet?

you have to think any trade for a forward involves packaging some of our younger d prospects.

i think the odds of our getting anyone that is a "name" are pretty slim..... because there is so much up in the air with injuries.

i hope he is not thinking of sully at all.

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05-23-2011, 03:37 PM
  #374
Joe T Choker
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Originally Posted by predfan98 View Post
it seems as if one of the radio interviews that poile did within the last couple of weeks he talked about free agency and forwards. as i recall, he seemed to say there weren't a lot of affordable forwards in free agency (for us) and that depth at forward would have to come from trades.

so , it seems as if he would be looking for a trade. with who and for who....didn't really say.

i don't know when he gives up on lombardy for next year. maybe he already has.

i would venture he's dealing with weber............and it seems as if weber's agent is also someone elses....... maybe sergei or was it someone else? i'm not sure, but it was someone else on the team that we are going to have a new contract for.....

and what about franky? is he working out yet?

you have to think any trade for a forward involves packaging some of our younger d prospects.

i think the odds of our getting anyone that is a "name" are pretty slim..... because there is so much up in the air with injuries.

i hope he is not thinking of sully at all.
Poile really needs to do a better job of finding FA Forwards, 2 games of Lombardi (and they keep saying he won't play this coming year), Dumont (he got his heart taken by Burrows & one of Dallas Dmen (forget the name)) & Sully shouldn't have been brought back for this past season ... that's something like 10 mil in failure of Free Agents for this past season combined

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05-23-2011, 03:44 PM
  #375
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Originally Posted by Dave is a killer View Post
Poile really needs to do a better job of finding FA Forwards, 2 games of Lombardi (and they keep saying he won't play this coming year), Dumont (he got his heart taken by Burrows & one of Dallas Dmen (forget the name)) & Sully shouldn't have been brought back for this past season ... that's something like 10 mil in failure of Free Agents for this past season combined
You keep using the Lombardi example, but what material is there to it? You call it a bad signing...but..based on what? A concussion he had before the lockout?

Also, I've not seen ANYWHERE that says definitively that he won't play next season. The very worst I've seen in print is that they "don't know," which is really all they can say at this point

Lombardi was the best center available in free agency last season. We tried to make a splash, and some bad luck caused it to blow up, but it's not a bust signing...yet.

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