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Timonen to meet with Homer - Why?

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05-13-2011, 01:34 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
So, you tell me who the 3rd defensive pairing is going to be and what you do the the Carle $$$.
No idea what it's going to be, but EVERY season there are serviceable D floating around out there to be had on reasonable contracts.

Of course, I would also like for us to let one of the young players be the 6th man on the D to start the year, and then find out if they can lock it down as the season progresses. If they do, GREAT. If they don't, then you can look to solidify the spot via a trade midseason to the deadline.

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05-13-2011, 02:05 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Jester View Post
No idea what it's going to be, but EVERY season there are serviceable D floating around out there to be had on reasonable contracts.

Of course, I would also like for us to let one of the young players be the 6th man on the D to start the year, and then find out if they can lock it down as the season progresses. If they do, GREAT. If they don't, then you can look to solidify the spot via a trade midseason to the deadline.
Well, don't just talk up a game, give me a valuable asset to fill that role otherwise you are not addressing the needs. The downfall to this team in the 2009-10 SCF's was they did not have enough depth to help control the Hawks. This year Pronger goes down, Syvret comes and and guess what, he gets slaughtered out there. So you had better have a better game plan that that.


And do not forget, as horrible as Carle is on defense he still led the team in assists, so much like trying to replace Carters 36 goals, how do you replace those assists and still get Meszaros production from the 3rd line?

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05-13-2011, 02:06 PM
  #203
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Well, heck, you could get Steve Eminger for $1.125 mill!!!!!!

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05-13-2011, 02:09 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Well, heck, you could get Steve Eminger for $1.125 mill!!!!!!

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05-13-2011, 02:16 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Well, heck, you could get Steve Eminger for $1.125 mill!!!!!!
If only the Flyers had a first round pick to complete that deal... ugh.

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05-13-2011, 02:18 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Well, heck, you could get Steve Eminger for $1.125 mill!!!!!!
Gus-Gill type as a 3rd pairing, prob cost similar to what Carle makes??

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05-13-2011, 02:26 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Well, don't just talk up a game, give me a valuable asset to fill that role otherwise you are not addressing the needs. The downfall to this team in the 2009-10 SCF's was they did not have enough depth to help control the Hawks. This year Pronger goes down, Syvret comes and and guess what, he gets slaughtered out there. So you had better have a better game plan that that.


And do not forget, as horrible as Carle is on defense he still led the team in assists, so much like trying to replace Carters 36 goals, how do you replace those assists and still get Meszaros production from the 3rd line?
Leading the team in assists isn't THAT impressive. Randy Jones put up 31 pts a couple of years back. Get out there with our forwards, and push the puck up and you're going to pick up points... particularly if you try really really hard to push the puck up like Carle does.

Dude, we're talking about a third pairing guy... not a "valuable" asset. You can literally wait and see who is floating around in mid July and pick someone up on a cheapish deal. Additionally, in a capped league you cannot (and this cannot be stressed enough) account for all injuries... it's just an impossible game to play. You trade Carter, and then next year we'll have a rash of injuries at forward and similar to last year the top of our D will be healthy the entire year.

You construct the best team you can, and hope it works when you put 'em out there and you avoid getting killed by injuries. If you play to potential injuries, you're going to create a team that is weaker than it could otherwise be.

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05-13-2011, 02:34 PM
  #208
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Replacing assists isn't as hard as replacing goals...unless carle were a good pp qb. However, he isn't. Replacing his 1 goal shouldn't be too hard either

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05-13-2011, 02:43 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by CharlieGirl View Post
If only the Flyers had a first round pick to complete that deal... ugh.
They could have Carlson and we would not even be having this discussion.

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05-13-2011, 02:44 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Replacing assists isn't as hard as replacing goals...unless carle were a good pp qb. However, he isn't. Replacing his 1 goal shouldn't be too hard either
BS. Total BS.

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05-13-2011, 02:45 PM
  #211
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
You think it's shocking that Mez, a lefty shot playing the right side of the PP, has more goals than Timonen, a lefty shot playing the left side of the PP?

Really, all you're doing is proving that you don't really understand the nuances of the sport.

When did I say I was shocked? Please point that out.

Timonen gets way more minutes on the PP than either Carle or Mez, hence, he should have more points.



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They NEVER practice dump ins and the drop pass? Ever? Really? Are you sure? Because they've been doing it for three *ing years, and every D we have that runs the PP runs those plays.
Are you *********g paying attention to what is being written?

I never stated that the set up like dump ins and drop passes aren't practiced and that's not what I was responding to.

Timonen is HESITANT on the ice during PPs. He never shows that in practice. None of them do.

He never has trouble keeping the puck in during the times I've witnessed him in practice. He does in real games.

He never skates like he has an anvil in his pants when he prctices the times I've seen him. He does in real games.

That's what I'm addressing here.

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05-13-2011, 02:50 PM
  #212
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Real games aren't like practice.

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05-13-2011, 02:53 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Real games aren't like practice.
I like this post. And it was 8000!

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05-13-2011, 02:54 PM
  #214
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Leading the team in assists isn't THAT impressive. Randy Jones put up 31 pts a couple of years back. Get out there with our forwards, and push the puck up and you're going to pick up points... particularly if you try really really hard to push the puck up like Carle does.
Well, if it is so easy I wonder why Danny Syvret, Lukas Krajicek, or Ryan Parent could get it done.

Quote:
Dude, we're talking about a third pairing guy... not a "valuable" asset. You can literally wait and see who is floating around in mid July and pick someone up on a cheapish deal. Additionally, in a capped league you cannot (and this cannot be stressed enough) account for all injuries... it's just an impossible game to play. You trade Carter, and then next year we'll have a rash of injuries at forward and similar to last year the top of our D will be healthy the entire year.
Dude, you are talking about defensive depth, the reason why Homertraded for Meszaros in the first place and then had to move Gagne as a result. It is easier to plug in for a fwd than it is to replace the defense, have we not learned that yet?

It is like people wanting to go back again and say to take a goalie cheaper so we can keep fwd depth. In a capped league something has to give eventually, I am not ready to give up the depth on defense right now, not unless they have someone in the prospect pool who can come in and handle the duties while Meszaros goes to pair up with Pronger.

Quote:
You construct the best team you can, and hope it works when you put 'em out there and you avoid getting killed by injuries. If you play to potential injuries, you're going to create a team that is weaker than it could otherwise be.
You construct the best team you can from the net out. The lucky thing is the Flyers have a lot of offensive depth, but they lack having subtantial goalie. I can forego having eight 20 goal scorers, get some guys who play their role and compete every night(see Laperriere or Asham type). And get a goalie who they can count on without giving up the defensive depth.

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05-13-2011, 03:05 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
When did I say I was shocked? Please point that out.

Timonen gets way more minutes on the PP than either Carle or Mez, hence, he should have more points.

Are we talking about points, or goals here...? Because you were talking about goals before.

Timonen got 3.11 minutes per game of 5 on 4 time.

Carle got 2.29 minutes per game.

Mez got 2.43 minutes per game.

So, it wasn't that much. However, we can get into scoring rates per 60 minutes on ice.

Timonen: 3.06 per 60
Carle: 0.92 per 60
Mez: 1.83 per 60

Timonen had more points because he was a LOT more effective than Carle and Mez, which is one of the reasons he got more minutes out there than they did. Carle was anemic on the PP, and Mez wasn't much better.


Quote:
Are you *********g paying attention to what is being written?

I never stated that the set up like dump ins and drop passes aren't practiced and that's not what I was responding to.

Timonen is HESITANT on the ice during PPs. He never shows that in practice. None of them do.

He never has trouble keeping the puck in during the times I've witnessed him in practice. He does in real games.

He never skates like he has an anvil in his pants when he prctices the times I've seen him. He does in real games.

That's what I'm addressing here.
Timonen and Carle bring the puck up the same exact way. This team runs a TON of set plays to bring the puck in, which is why they're doing all the drop pass stuff. They're moving up as a UNIT, so Timonen kind of needs to keep pace with everyon else for **** to work. The PP as a UNIT had problems this year, but to lay all the blame at Timonen's feet is ridiculous.

If Carle and Mez hadn't of SUCKED at the PP, we would have been in significantly better shape.

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05-13-2011, 03:09 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Well, if it is so easy I wonder why Danny Syvret, Lukas Krajicek, or Ryan Parent could get it done.
Well, Syvret played 10 games for us... and has struggled to make the NHL for a reason.

Krajicek is no longer in the NHL.

Ryan Parent has zero offensive skills even at the best of times.

Quote:
Dude, you are talking about defensive depth, the reason why Homertraded for Meszaros in the first place and then had to move Gagne as a result. It is easier to plug in for a fwd than it is to replace the defense, have we not learned that yet?

It is like people wanting to go back again and say to take a goalie cheaper so we can keep fwd depth. In a capped league something has to give eventually, I am not ready to give up the depth on defense right now, not unless they have someone in the prospect pool who can come in and handle the duties while Meszaros goes to pair up with Pronger.
Dude, you're the master of completely BS paper tiger arguments. You can construct a SIGNIFICANTLY better 3rd pairing than Krajicek and Parent for a LOT cheaper than what we did this past year.

And, no, it is not easy to plug in for forwards that are as effective across the board as a guy like Carter is... GOALS are also the hardest stat in this league to replace.

Quote:
You construct the best team you can from the net out. The lucky thing is the Flyers have a lot of offensive depth, but they lack having subtantial goalie. I can forego having eight 20 goal scorers, get some guys who play their role and compete every night(see Laperriere or Asham type). And get a goalie who they can count on without giving up the defensive depth.
I can make do without a 5+M third pairing pretty easily... in fact pretty much everyone does.

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05-13-2011, 03:10 PM
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Replacing assists isn't as hard as replacing goals...unless carle were a good pp qb. However, he isn't. Replacing his 1 goal shouldn't be too hard either
I remember when Randy Jones' 31 points was such a vaunted feat.

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05-13-2011, 03:10 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
BS. Total BS.
It's really not... assists float around statistically like garbage in the ocean. Especially for D. A guy with decent offensive skills on the backend, with a good group of forwards in front of him, is going to pick up assists.

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05-13-2011, 03:17 PM
  #219
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Well, Syvret played 10 games for us... and has struggled to make the NHL for a reason.

Krajicek is no longer in the NHL.

Ryan Parent has zero offensive skills even at the best of times.
Those were all guys who filled in when the defense got thin, proves my point, thanks.



Quote:
Dude, you're the master of completely BS paper tiger arguments. You can construct a SIGNIFICANTLY better 3rd pairing than Krajicek and Parent for a LOT cheaper than what we did this past year.
Once again, talk is cheap, show me who you are talking about. I looked at the UFA market, good luck.

Quote:
And, no, it is not easy to plug in for forwards that are as effective across the board as a guy like Carter is... GOALS are also the hardest stat in this league to replace.

Yes it is, look at the Bruins.

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I can make do without a 5+M third pairing pretty easily... in fact pretty much everyone does.
Removing Carle's salary does nothing to help the team except have to go out and replace him. It does nothing to address the real issue, in goal. talk about the strawman argument.

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05-13-2011, 03:17 PM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester View Post
Are we talking about points, or goals here...? Because you were talking about goals before.

Quote:
Timonen got 3.11 minutes per game of 5 on 4 time.

Carle got 2.29 minutes per game.

Mez got 2.43 minutes per game.

So, it wasn't that much. However, we can get into scoring rates per 60 minutes on ice.

Timonen: 3.06 per 60
Carle: 0.92 per 60
Mez: 1.83 per 60

Timonen had more points because he was a LOT more effective than Carle and Mez, which is one of the reasons he got more minutes out there than they did. Carle was anemic on the PP, and Mez wasn't much better.
Timonen played 272.50 PP ice time.

Matt Carle played 188:41.

Mez played 197.20


That is significantly more time than either Carle or Mez. Yet, Mez still had more PP goals than Kimmo did.





Quote:
Timonen and Carle bring the puck up the same exact way. This team runs a TON of set plays to bring the puck in, which is why they're doing all the drop pass stuff. They're moving up as a UNIT, so Timonen kind of needs to keep pace with everyon else for **** to work. The PP as a UNIT had problems this year, but to lay all the blame at Timonen's feet is ridiculous.
I never laid the entire blame of the PP on any one player. That would be ridiculous.

What I stated was that Timonen hurts it more than he helps it.


Quote:
If Carle and Mez hadn't of SUCKED at the PP, we would have been in significantly better shape.

I think it's unfair to blame just Carle and Mez.

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05-13-2011, 03:20 PM
  #221
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I love Timonen, but it's hard to believe that people think he didn't regress significantly this year. He is gradually losing his speed, and now gets beat easily to the outside. He doesn't get involved in the offense as much, because otherwise he'll get caught behind the play can't keep up with the back check. Unlike past years, Coburn was the real defensive stalwart on that pairing, not the other way around.

To say he can get 60 points "with Pronger covering" him at this point in his career is nonsense.

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05-13-2011, 03:25 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by JXC View Post
The Sedins aren't young. San Jose's leadership and nucleus is older. Chara is in his twelfth year, something like that. Tampa are led by veterans like St. Louis and Lacavalier and Randy Jones.

Our "nucleus" and "leadership" are fellas like Richards and Carter.

Not good enough.

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05-13-2011, 03:31 PM
  #223
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They NEVER practice dump ins and the drop pass? Ever? Really? Are you sure? Because they've been doing it for three *ing years, and every D we have that runs the PP runs those plays.
Yes I'm sure. Having attended almost every practice this year I only saw them dump it in during their PP drills. Most of the PP drills revolve around cycling.

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05-13-2011, 04:15 PM
  #224
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Originally Posted by Cartsiephan View Post
Those were all guys who filled in when the defense got thin, proves my point, thanks.
Those were all guys that filled in when Holmgren was spending well less than 2M on the third pairing... and Syvret is fine as a 3rd pairing guy during the regular season. However, I would much prefer to see what Bartulis, Gustav, etc. can do in that spot.

So, no, it doesn't really prove your point. The problem with Parent-Krajicek was that Holmgren completely *ed up that year. I'm not saying you punt on the 3rd pairing, but you don't need a 4M guy back there either in order to get effective play out of your third pairing. It also has the negative effect of hindering your ability to bring up guys that can grow into a NHL roster spot.

Quote:
Once again, talk is cheap, show me who you are talking about. I looked at the UFA market, good luck.
A guy like, Andy Greene, for example.

Montador.

There are a LOT of guys we'd be perfectly fine with on the 3rd pairing with Mez pushed up to Carle's spot.

Quote:
Yes it is, look at the Bruins.
Yeah, look at the Bruins... they traded an offensive D with ****ty defensive skills and got a young goal scorer.

Hmm...

Quote:
Removing Carle's salary does nothing to help the team except have to go out and replace him. It does nothing to address the real issue, in goal. talk about the strawman argument.
Carle's salary, replaced by a cheaper guy, does nothing to help address the real issue in goal... the problem of which, is salary?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShotScore View Post
I think it's unfair to blame just Carle and Mez.
Seriously, learn how to use the quote tags....

And you realize that RATE scoring is independent of the gross number of minutes the players were on the ice, right? Timonen DESTROYED them there... and you brought up Mez scoring more goals than Timonen: no ****, hes a lefty shot playing the right side of the PP and Timonen is a lefty shot playing the left side of the PP.

Do you still not understand why Timonen doesn't score goals on our PP setup?

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05-13-2011, 04:17 PM
  #225
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Originally Posted by Norm MacDonald View Post
I love Timonen, but it's hard to believe that people think he didn't regress significantly this year. He is gradually losing his speed, and now gets beat easily to the outside. He doesn't get involved in the offense as much, because otherwise he'll get caught behind the play can't keep up with the back check. Unlike past years, Coburn was the real defensive stalwart on that pairing, not the other way around.

To say he can get 60 points "with Pronger covering" him at this point in his career is nonsense.
Timonen was playing with a bum hip flexor this year... ever have that injury? If it's bad enough (mine was) it can feel like your hip is out of its socket all of the sudden.

And, no, Coburn was not the defensive stalwart on that pairing this year... he was the same as he's been in each of the last couple years. Games where he dominates, games where he's all over the place. He remains frustrating as hell to watch with his defensive decision making, too.

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