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Should the Sharks scratch Marleau?? seriously.

View Poll Results: Should Marleau be scratched for game 7? seriously
No 89 63.12%
Yes 38 26.95%
Not sure 14 9.93%
Voters: 141. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-11-2011, 12:23 PM
  #51
AstroDan
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Originally Posted by coladin View Post
Patrick Marleau has all the tools to be en elite player. Mentally, though, is where his issues lie. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, he has never truly beleived in himself. His play is hampered by self doubt, even at this stage in his career. People are different, what can you say? Some are mentally tougher than others. Can he perservere? It would be ludicrous to scratch him at this stage without completely turning the page and moving on in the off-season. What if you scratch him and you win? How do you put him back in?
Nice to be able to know what's in another mans' heart and mind...

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Old
05-11-2011, 12:37 PM
  #52
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I hate today.
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Old
05-11-2011, 12:49 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
That might be an argument.....except that isn't what's happening.

Of Patrick Marleau's 18 shifts (12+ mins) over the first two periods, Lidstrom & Stuart were on the ice defending him only twice (give or take a few seconds of overlap on some changes on the fly).

The overwhelming majority of the time during the first two periods, Marleau was being defended by Detroit's 3rd line (yes, 3rd line) pairing of Rafalski and Salei.

Now in the 3rd period with the game on the line, when McLellan was specifically putting Marleau out more often and more frequently in the most critical moments (after TV timeouts, on the PP, as often as possible when battling for a goal)....basically the same moments you would expect Lidstrom & Stuart to be out there regardless of who they were matched up against.....that's when Marleau drew the top line D pairing.

Won't go back to look at shifts over the entire series, but I'd venture that Babcock stopped putting his top-line D against Marleau several games ago. Which leaves even less reason to keep bringing him out if he's injured.
Er, didn't patty play off the top line last game? I certainly seem to recall him going against Datsyuk the game before and failing miserably ... and the Wings defense isn't only their defensemen.

The strategy is to use the top line to draw their top line and battle them at worst to a stalemate, and let the lower lines get the job done. That didn't get done in game 5 but the point is the top line still commands attention. We saw in game 6 how much less effective it was without that top threat.

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05-11-2011, 12:50 PM
  #54
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I'm usually hard on Marleau, and cursed him out after last nights game, but now think that part of the reason the sharks $#!^ the bed last night was because of the coaching. If Clowe goes out, why do you change the WHOLE lineup and mess with everyone's chemistry when they could have just inserted McGuinn in Clowes place and put McCarthy in on the 4th line. So I voted No keep him in the lienup, but back on Jumbo's flank.

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05-11-2011, 12:56 PM
  #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarrylshutzSydor View Post
I'm usually hard on Marleau, and cursed him out after last nights game, but now think that part of the reason the sharks $#!^ the bed last night was because of the coaching. If Clowe goes out, why do you change the WHOLE lineup and mess with everyone's chemistry when they could have just inserted McGuinn in Clowes place and put McCarthy in on the 4th line. So I voted No keep him in the lienup, but back on Jumbo's flank.
Ya, I mentioned this in the GDT. It didn't make any sense to me either. Irregardless (as McLellan likes to say) of how Marleau has been playing, that line has been producing.

And there was NO reason to mess with the Wellwood/Pavs/Mitchell line. Hopefully, either Clowe is well enough to dress and the lines go back to what has been working so well for such a long time or McLellan at least puts the Thornton and Pavelski lines back together.

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Old
05-11-2011, 01:11 PM
  #56
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Some people are talking as if Marleau has never accomplished anything in the playoffs before. He has shown in the past that he can be a top player in the playoffs, but he's incredibly streaky and always has been.

He's been awful in this series, but benching him at this point would be highly counterproductive. There's a reason that benching "top" players results in media attention, league-wide talk, etc. You live and die with your best players.

Even if he's not on the scoresheet, his presence, speed, and physicality (yes, he's been physical in this series) is enough to warrant attention from Detroit's top players. That's not something that an AHL plug can bring.

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Old
05-11-2011, 01:28 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
Marleau took a bad cross-checking penalty in the neutral zone and got absolutely burned by Datsyuk on that scramble at the end of the second period. Datsyuk walked in all alone and created that pair of glorious scoring opportunities with a gaping right before that buzzer. On the play, Datsyuk started the play out with a give-and-go pass from the center red line, then blew past Marleau at the blue line like he was standing still (mostly because Marleau was standing still), then drove the net for his chance as Marleau coasted after him. Didn't go in, but definitely made me

So no goals, but not a good effort either, and poor execution on the few good opportunities he did have.

All that being said, Marleau does have the ability to turn it on. You can't afford to bench a guy with his skill and his proven abilities in a Game 7. Or pretty much any playoff game. The Sharks need him, he needs to be out there and he should be on the ice.

The real question in my mind is not whether or not Marleau should be out there, or whether or not Marleau should be replaced by Desjardins or Mayers (a bit of a silly emotional argument there), but whether or not he should be getting 23+ minutes a game.

I stand by what I've said since about Game 3 of the LA series......I think Marleau is hurt. He has occasional inconsistent bursts of speed, but for the most part, he hasn't moved his legs. He looked okay in Games 1 & 2 against LA, then I noticed a sharp dropoff for him in Games 3 & 4, and he doesn't appear to have recovered since.

I think he's injured. Which is fine in and of itself in that it explains why he isn't performing as he needs to be......but it doesn't excuse McLellan for continuously trotting him out there for 23+ mins/game, when the team's most productive players like Clowe, Couture and Pavelski are playing less than 20 mins/game.

If he's banged up, okay. Injured Marleau is still better (on paper) than Jamal Mayers. But injured Marleau is NOT better than healthy & productive Pavelski/Clowe/Couture. You need your best players to get the most ice time, and you need the players you give the most ice time to produce. Marleau's roster spot is more than justified. His ice time over better/healthier players is not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
That might be an argument.....except that isn't what's happening.

Of Patrick Marleau's 18 shifts (12+ mins) over the first two periods, Lidstrom & Stuart were on the ice defending him only twice (give or take a few seconds of overlap on some changes on the fly).

The overwhelming majority of the time during the first two periods, Marleau was being defended by Detroit's 3rd line (yes, 3rd line) pairing of Rafalski and Salei.

Now in the 3rd period with the game on the line, when McLellan was specifically putting Marleau out more often and more frequently in the most critical moments (after TV timeouts, on the PP, as often as possible when battling for a goal)....basically the same moments you would expect Lidstrom & Stuart to be out there regardless of who they were matched up against.....that's when Marleau drew the top line D pairing.

Won't go back to look at shifts over the entire series, but I'd venture that Babcock stopped putting his top-line D against Marleau several games ago. Which leaves even less reason to keep bringing him out if he's injured.
Finally someone is that wants Marleau in is making some sense. I am so tired of people saying the whole team blow to take the attention off Patty, or saying he wasn't that bad.

Your detailed account of Marleau's game is exactly what I saw and made me question whether or not he's even being paid by our team or someone else.

I don't necessarily think he should be scratched for sure but I was hoping to hear some compelling non-biased arguments. Reduced ice-time is soooooo obvious and something I can't believe hasn't happened already. Quite frankly I like the idea of sending a message to the team that they'll break up the whole team and trade under-achievers to some dump in the middle of Texas....maybe that will change the whole SJ complacent attitude that seems to haunt this team at times.

No matter how you slice it though, our coach is easily being out-coached and was the last couple of seasons too

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Old
05-11-2011, 02:28 PM
  #58
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Originally Posted by MyNameIsSharkie View Post
Lets get real now...you act like he was the only one turning the puck over high in the offensive zone. Everyone had a few mistakes tonight and everyone piles on top of Patty cuz he's Mr. Shark and an easy target.
Actually we pile on Patty because he has 0 points in this series and generally disappears in the playoffs. He's their second star player, a former Captain and is EXPECTED to produce and lead a team when it matters the most. He doesn't exactly have a glowing track record in doing so.

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Old
05-11-2011, 02:59 PM
  #59
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It's not even in the coaches minds to bench him and its a crazy thought. Its not a decision about his personality as SJEasy proposes in his responses. Its a decision about our chances to win. Will he show up? Who knows. That's why he's such a maddening player. I wish he was on another team. But he's on ours and if the quiet all-star Marleau shows up to this game, we have a good chance to win versus replacing him with someone like McGinn who has limited upside. And if the little boy lost Marleau shows up, I don't think there is much of a difference between his inferior play and that of a 4th liner.

So for me, though I long ago fell out of the Patty fan club, he's the best player on the team to ice that's on the roster. We can talk about the off-season when its the off-season.

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05-11-2011, 03:00 PM
  #60
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05-11-2011, 03:07 PM
  #61
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Bravo

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05-11-2011, 03:15 PM
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroDan View Post
This.

If SJ loses 4 in a row, I'd like to see the $20mil from Jumbo, Patty and Heater spent elsewhere. IMO, all 3 have been useless this series and I'm as fed up as anyone.

Reality, they have contracts and are going nowhere, so we might as well use them together to pull top defense away from our (superior) 2nd and 3rd lines... If they click (and they certainly have in the past) all the better.
yes your right thornton and heatley have sucked so bad that every one with a brain is giving them praise of how good they are playing in these playoffs (including this series).

thornton is usually the 1st one back on his line in the defensive zone (even though he is by far the slowest on his line, and that isn't even close).

same as heatley, i always see him battling down low in the defensive end fighting for pucks.

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05-11-2011, 03:27 PM
  #63
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Thornton and Heatley have raised their defensive efforts enough that when they have an off game in the offensive zone, you can see that they're still trying. Marleau isn't. Honestly, it's like as Thornton has become a better postseason player, Marleau's gotten worse.

I have no idea what you do. He's a net negative in the lineup as he's been, with the potential to make a big positive difference still. In the unlikely event that you take him out, you're bringing in someone less talented and less experienced and Todd doesn't like to play those sorts more then five minutes a night. You have a similar chance for epic failure, with much less upside.

You're pretty much stuck throwing him out there and hoping, but God, if they get a lead in the 3rd, he needs to be shifted 4th line equivalent minutes as is.

Beyond tomorrow night, I'd love to get him moved as unlikely as that is. At least Drury and Gomez play decent defense on their awful contracts. Right now, he's closer to the Canadian version of Alexei Kovalev, at double the cost.

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05-11-2011, 03:33 PM
  #64
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Maybe instead of practice Mclellan can enlist Marleau in a confidence building seminar, with lots of motivational speeches and free cake and tea afterwards.

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05-11-2011, 03:37 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by KpopandHockey View Post
Maybe instead of practice Mclellan can enlist Marleau in a confidence building seminar, with lots of motivational speeches and free cake and tea afterwards.
I like tea. And I like Marleau. But I don't like the way Marleau has played this postseason.

You can tell from some of the interviews (Boyle's seemed telling to me personally), that some of his teammates feel the same way.

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Old
05-11-2011, 03:46 PM
  #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
That might be an argument.....except that isn't what's happening.

Of Patrick Marleau's 18 shifts (12+ mins) over the first two periods, Lidstrom & Stuart were on the ice defending him only twice (give or take a few seconds of overlap on some changes on the fly).

The overwhelming majority of the time during the first two periods, Marleau was being defended by Detroit's 3rd line (yes, 3rd line) pairing of Rafalski and Salei.

Now in the 3rd period with the game on the line, when McLellan was specifically putting Marleau out more often and more frequently in the most critical moments (after TV timeouts, on the PP, as often as possible when battling for a goal)....basically the same moments you would expect Lidstrom & Stuart to be out there regardless of who they were matched up against.....that's when Marleau drew the top line D pairing.

Won't go back to look at shifts over the entire series, but I'd venture that Babcock stopped putting his top-line D against Marleau several games ago. Which leaves even less reason to keep bringing him out if he's injured.
Thanks. Babcock also does forward matchups. When Babcock gets Datsyuk on Couture, Babcock salivates.

Ericsson is the weak link on their backend even though Rafalski/Salei get lesser assignments. Ericsson has more of those facepalm moments.

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Old
05-11-2011, 03:53 PM
  #67
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Roenick on KNBR

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Old
05-11-2011, 04:50 PM
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juantimer View Post
Er, didn't patty play off the top line last game? I certainly seem to recall him going against Datsyuk the game before and failing miserably ... and the Wings defense isn't only their defensemen.

The strategy is to use the top line to draw their top line and battle them at worst to a stalemate, and let the lower lines get the job done. That didn't get done in game 5 but the point is the top line still commands attention. We saw in game 6 how much less effective it was without that top threat.
(Actually, I don't agree at all with the strategy of throwing Marleau for heavy minutes out there just to play the Detroit top line to a draw anyway.....but I'm playing along for argument's sake).

Went back and looked at Game 5 TOI charts. Marleau took 24 shifts over the first 2 periods....on 11 of them (less than half) he was matched up against the top D-pairing of Lidstrom and Stuart. Again, come the 3rd period Marleau is drawing the top D-pairing. But that's not the point.

In both Games 5 & 6, both with the top line and lower lines, he has produced.....nada.

My point with the ice time was just to show that Marleau has spent about half his ice time over the last two games against both the top D pair and the lower D pairs. So half the time that Marleau is on the ice, the top D pairs are focusing on the lower lines anyway (contrary to your suggestion).

And whether they are or not, Marleau has been unproductive against anybody and outplayed by whoever he's been matched up against. He's not even battling their top line to a stalemate, as you suggest. He's losing that battle. So even if that "stalemate" was the coach's strategy, it's failing anyway.

But even giving you the "top line stalemate" argument.....that doesn't explain Marleau's ice time in the clutch.

With the game on the line, down by a goal, desperately needing a score to tie the game, you need your best and most productive players on the ice. Simply line matching to a stalemate then becomes a losing strategy. With the game on the line, desperately needing a goal, line matching becomes irrelevant. Each team puts out their best players for as long and hard as they can go, and the better performance wins out.

In Game 5, Marleau was on the ice for 3:27 of the final 6:58. Forget the darned line matching! In crunch time, put your best, most productive players out on the ice and tell them to go get you that goal.

If Marleau is totally healthy and capable of being the guy to get that goal......fine, keep putting him out there. If he's healthy but simply unWILLING to be the guy who does what it takes to get that goal, then he shouldn't be out there for half of the final 7 minutes and his time should be given to one of the 6 other more deserving forwards.

If Marleay is unhealthy and still producing (like Datsyuk), then fine.....keeping giving him ice time in the critical situations until he physically can't do it anymore (like Franzen). But if Marleau is unhealthy and it is preventing him from producing at the level he can, then Pavelski or Couture should be getting those critical opportunities in the clutch.

To T-Mac's credit, Marleau was given his least amount of ice time in this postseason in Game 6 (just 18:58, down from 23:18 in Game 5), and his 3rd period/crunch time ice time was also slashed, even with Clowe out of the lineup.

But that's what I'm trying to say......I wouldn't SIT Marleau, he's still better than Mayers, Desjardins, etc.......but either Marleau is injured and CAN'T do what is needed (in which case Pavs/Couture should be getting more of that critical ice time, regardless of D-pairings); or Marleau is healthy and simply ISN'T doing what is needed (in which case Pavs/Couture should be getting more of that critical ice time, regardless of D-pairings).

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05-11-2011, 05:16 PM
  #69
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I think it would be stupid to place blame entirely on any single player, for this series, or any past failures.

But how anyone can say Marleau hasn't been playing like a straight *****, is beyond me. If he isn't injured, then what excuse is there to be completely non-existent in this series? I like Patty, but for his contract, he must be better. And while other players need to be better too, not many others are making anything close to Marleau-money.

Bench him? No way. It's way too late for that. Should have done that after Game 2 or 3. Now you go down with the ship. You give him one more game to find his game ...

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05-11-2011, 05:21 PM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJGoalie32 View Post
(Actually, I don't agree at all with the strategy of throwing Marleau for heavy minutes out there just to play the Detroit top line to a draw anyway.....but I'm playing along for argument's sake).

Went back and looked at Game 5 TOI charts. Marleau took 24 shifts over the first 2 periods....on 11 of them (less than half) he was matched up against the top D-pairing of Lidstrom and Stuart. Again, come the 3rd period Marleau is drawing the top D-pairing. But that's not the point.

In both Games 5 & 6, both with the top line and lower lines, he has produced.....nada.

My point with the ice time was just to show that Marleau has spent about half his ice time over the last two games against both the top D pair and the lower D pairs. So half the time that Marleau is on the ice, the top D pairs are focusing on the lower lines anyway (contrary to your suggestion).

And whether they are or not, Marleau has been unproductive against anybody and outplayed by whoever he's been matched up against. He's not even battling their top line to a stalemate, as you suggest. He's losing that battle. So even if that "stalemate" was the coach's strategy, it's failing anyway.

But even giving you the "top line stalemate" argument.....that doesn't explain Marleau's ice time in the clutch.

With the game on the line, down by a goal, desperately needing a score to tie the game, you need your best and most productive players on the ice. Simply line matching to a stalemate then becomes a losing strategy. With the game on the line, desperately needing a goal, line matching becomes irrelevant. Each team puts out their best players for as long and hard as they can go, and the better performance wins out.

In Game 5, Marleau was on the ice for 3:27 of the final 6:58. Forget the darned line matching! In crunch time, put your best, most productive players out on the ice and tell them to go get you that goal.

If Marleau is totally healthy and capable of being the guy to get that goal......fine, keep putting him out there. If he's healthy but simply unWILLING to be the guy who does what it takes to get that goal, then he shouldn't be out there for half of the final 7 minutes and his time should be given to one of the 6 other more deserving forwards.

If Marleay is unhealthy and still producing (like Datsyuk), then fine.....keeping giving him ice time in the critical situations until he physically can't do it anymore (like Franzen). But if Marleau is unhealthy and it is preventing him from producing at the level he can, then Pavelski or Couture should be getting those critical opportunities in the clutch.

To T-Mac's credit, Marleau was given his least amount of ice time in this postseason in Game 6 (just 18:58, down from 23:18 in Game 5), and his 3rd period/crunch time ice time was also slashed, even with Clowe out of the lineup.

But that's what I'm trying to say......I wouldn't SIT Marleau, he's still better than Mayers, Desjardins, etc.......but either Marleau is injured and CAN'T do what is needed (in which case Pavs/Couture should be getting more of that critical ice time, regardless of D-pairings); or Marleau is healthy and simply ISN'T doing what is needed (in which case Pavs/Couture should be getting more of that critical ice time, regardless of D-pairings).
coppernblue has been doing numbers for scoring chances. Marleau actually topped the Sharks for being positive in that regard for game #6. The total for the team wasn't pretty.

http://www.coppernblue.com/2011/5/11...chances-game-6

Another suggestion was made by another writer that the replacement should have been for Clowe only instead of messing with all three lines, and I can buy that.

Numbers below exclude game #3 where data was not available.

Cumulative scoring chance differential for the series for SJ players.
Quote:
PHP Code:
Player..............For..Against..Diff
Ryane Clowe 
............22....13.....9
Niclas Wallin 
..........23....16.....7
Ian White 
..............23....17.....6
Devin Setoguchi 
........19....15.....4
Patrick Marleau 
........23....19.....4
Jason Demers 
...........24....21.....3
Logan Couture 
..........18....15.....3
Dany Heatley 
...........20....19.....1
Jamal Mayers 
............1.....0.....1
Joe Pavelski 
...........21....20.....1
Marc
-Edouard Vlasic ....22....21.....1
Kyle Wellwood 
..........23....23.....0
Joe Thornton 
...........21....22....-1
Antti Niemi 
............61....64....-3
Ben Eager 
...............0.....4....-4
Jamie McGinn 
............1.....5....-4
Scott Nichol 
............4.....8....-4
Torrey Mitchell 
........14....18....-4
Benn Ferriero 
...........5....11....-6
Dan Boyle 
..............18....27....-9
Douglas Murray 
.........15....26....-11 
Cumulative scoring chance differential for the series for Detroit players.
Quote:
PHP Code:
Player..............For..Against..Diff
Pavel Datsyuk
.........31....22.....9
Johan Franzen
.........19....11.....8
Henrik Zetterberg
.....27....22.....5
Ruslan Salei
..........19....16.....3
Valtteri Filppula
.....19....16.....3
Brian Rafalski
........23....22.....1
Danny Cleary
..........15....14.....1
Jimmy Howard
..........64....63.....1
Nicklas Lidstrom
......22....21.....1
Jiri Hudler
...........12....12.....0
Brad Stuart
...........22....23....-1
Drew Miller
............7....8.....-1
Jonathan Ericsson
.....24....25....-1
Kris Draper
............4....5.....-1
Mike Modano
............0....1.....-1
Niklas Kronwall
.......18....19....-1
Todd Bertuzzi
.........11....13....-2
Justin Abdelkader
.....11....15....-4
Patrick Eaves
..........8....12....-4
Tomas Holmstrom
.......18....22....-4
Darren Helm
...........10....16....-

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Old
05-11-2011, 05:22 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by Winky View Post
I think it would be stupid to place blame entirely on any single player, for this series, or any past failures.

But how anyone can say Marleau hasn't been playing like a straight *****, is beyond me. If he isn't injured, then what excuse is there to be completely non-existent in this series? I like Patty, but for his contract, he must be better. And while other players need to be better too, not many others are making anything close to Marleau-money.

Bench him? No way. It's way too late for that. Should have done that after Game 2 or 3. Now you go down with the ship. You give him one more game to find his game ...
I'm hoping he gets Kronwalled in the first period of game 7. Not because I want to see him injured but I think that's the only thing that will really make him show up in this series. He isn't just going to magically appear without motivation, I think getting laid on his ass will be motivation enough.

Maybe Tmac will force him to say he hopes to play against Kronwall or something.

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05-11-2011, 05:37 PM
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dwood16
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Originally Posted by KpopandHockey View Post
I'm hoping he gets Kronwalled in the first period of game 7. Not because I want to see him injured but I think that's the only thing that will really make him show up in this series. He isn't just going to magically appear without motivation, I think getting laid on his ass will be motivation enough.

Maybe Tmac will force him to say he hopes to play against Kronwall or something.
Dude, taking big hits usually makes him even more invisible. Some people have even commented that he is scared to get hit and that's why he doesn't battle in the boards and get loose pucks.

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05-11-2011, 05:40 PM
  #73
KpopandHockey
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Originally Posted by dwood16 View Post
Dude, taking big hits usually makes him even more invisible. Some people have even commented that he is scared to get hit and that's why he doesn't battle in the boards and get loose pucks.
He hasn't gotten hit this series, I'm willing to take my chances. Maybe he is scared of getting hit because he has forgotten what it feels like.

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05-11-2011, 06:07 PM
  #74
SJGoalie32
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
coppernblue has been doing numbers for scoring chances. Marleau actually topped the Sharks for being positive in that regard for game #6. The total for the team wasn't pretty.
Well, that would seem to correlate a bit with him playing so few shifts against Lidstrom/Stuart and so many against Rafalski/Salei.

Against worse D-pairings he's getting more quality opportunities.....but even still, he failed to capitalize on any of them and only managed to get just one shot on goal despite several good open looks.

Regardless, those chances are not being taken advantage of. So either he's not producing because he's not putting in the requisite effort, or he's not producing because he's injured.

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05-11-2011, 06:36 PM
  #75
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Hmm...

I'll agree Marleau hasn't produced, but pulling him off the Seto/Thornton line destroyed it. They had zero chances. With Marleau, Setoguchi had a hat trick.

Even if Marleau's playing terrible, he needs to get back on that line. ASAP.

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