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How big a heist would this have been

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Old
05-13-2011, 11:02 PM
  #26
Saugus
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Amazing how opinions of a player rightfully change over a few short years.

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05-13-2011, 11:05 PM
  #27
JeffMangum
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I remember people suggesting that Toskala for Col's 1st round pick in '09 was a fair trade.

Hindsight = 20/20

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Old
05-14-2011, 03:08 AM
  #28
Scorcho
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevsFan7545 View Post
Parise, and Datsyuk

Omg Why couldnt this happen
it happened in my nhl 11 be a gm

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05-14-2011, 05:46 AM
  #29
Feed Me A Stray Cat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zack Ryder View Post
Datsyuk hadn't established himself the way he has now. Until 2006-07 he sucked in the playoffs. You guys can blow me, back then I made that claim and if I'd go back in time I'd make it again.
This is why you don't judge players on a handful of playoff series.

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Old
05-14-2011, 11:46 AM
  #30
tailfins
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the other thing about this proposal to me is it was made at a time when the Wings and Devils were the class of the NHL. The Wings still are, but the Devils have now fallen back to the pack. What's happened?

Lidstrom stayed. Niedermayer didn't.
Dastyuk stayed. Gomez didn't (and he then sucked).
Kronwall stayed. Martin didn't.
Rafalski switched sides

Zetterberg = Elias
Franzen = Parise

plus a whole host of other stuff, obviously. But, the ability for the Wings to keep and groom players has clearly been superior. It's forced the Devils to gamble on Kovalchuk and try to rebuild their team on the fly.

Looking at this, somehow it seems like the Devils have lost the ability to get people to sacrifice (pay, role, free-time) for the goal of winning. Maybe there's something too that idea that the Devils have never replaced Stevens as captain.

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Old
05-14-2011, 11:49 AM
  #31
Getzo5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
the other thing about this proposal to me is it was made at a time when the Wings and Devils were the class of the NHL. The Wings still are, but the Devils have now fallen back to the pack. What's happened?

Lidstrom stayed. Niedermayer didn't.
Dastyuk stayed. Gomez didn't (and he then sucked).
Kronwall stayed. Martin didn't.
Rafalski switched sides

Zetterberg = Elias
Franzen = Parise

plus a whole host of other stuff, obviously. But, the ability for the Wings to keep and groom players has clearly been superior. It's forced the Devils to gamble on Kovalchuk and try to rebuild their team on the fly.

Looking at this, somehow it seems like the Devils have lost the ability to get people to sacrifice (pay, role, free-time) for the goal of winning. Maybe there's something too that idea that the Devils have never replaced Stevens as captain.
Quoting just to thank for this comment.

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Old
05-14-2011, 11:53 AM
  #32
JimEIV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
the other thing about this proposal to me is it was made at a time when the Wings and Devils were the class of the NHL. The Wings still are, but the Devils have now fallen back to the pack. What's happened?

Lidstrom stayed. Niedermayer didn't.
Dastyuk stayed. Gomez didn't (and he then sucked).
Kronwall stayed. Martin didn't.
Rafalski switched sides


Zetterberg = Elias
Franzen = Parise

plus a whole host of other stuff, obviously. But, the ability for the Wings to keep and groom players has clearly been superior. It's forced the Devils to gamble on Kovalchuk and try to rebuild their team on the fly.

Looking at this, somehow it seems like the Devils have lost the ability to get people to sacrifice (pay, role, free-time) for the goal of winning. Maybe there's something too that idea that the Devils have never replaced Stevens as captain.
Holy smokes that is a great observation.....


But I take serious umbrage with Frazen = Parise

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Old
05-14-2011, 11:59 AM
  #33
Saugus
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That's very true. We were victims of player attrition. The Wings got their guys to stay in order to keep their team at the top.

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Old
05-14-2011, 12:05 PM
  #34
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Yeah, that's a good point. But at the same time, I don't believe the Devils had draconian rules in place that drove people away.

If Lidstrom had a brother, maybe he leaves.

Gomez was always a goner because of the draconian rules.

If Lidstrom left, maybe Kronwall leaves. Kronwall probably stayed because of Lidstrom. Gotta imagine he's got tremendous respect for him.

And if all those guys are gone, maybe Rafalski doesn't go to Detroit in the first place.

Sometimes, Lou shoots himself in the foot. This team could use a few characters, and maybe they have some and we just don't get to enjoy them because of the Men in Black type attitude. It is what it is.

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Old
05-14-2011, 12:45 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailfins View Post
the other thing about this proposal to me is it was made at a time when the Wings and Devils were the class of the NHL. The Wings still are, but the Devils have now fallen back to the pack. What's happened?

Lidstrom stayed. Niedermayer didn't.
Dastyuk stayed. Gomez didn't (and he then sucked).
Kronwall stayed. Martin didn't.
Rafalski switched sides

Zetterberg = Elias
Franzen = Parise

plus a whole host of other stuff, obviously. But, the ability for the Wings to keep and groom players has clearly been superior. It's forced the Devils to gamble on Kovalchuk and try to rebuild their team on the fly.

Looking at this, somehow it seems like the Devils have lost the ability to get people to sacrifice (pay, role, free-time) for the goal of winning. Maybe there's something too that idea that the Devils have never replaced Stevens as captain.
The Devils also have never won a cup without a person named Scott on the team.


Wedgewood is our savior!

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Old
05-14-2011, 01:00 PM
  #36
tailfins
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I don't think it was Lou (necessarily) or the rules of the team. There's definitely something to the fact that we started to lose people with the new free agency rules post-lockout. But, I also think that the team lost a sense of loyalty to one another.

Niedermayer left to play with his brother, but also because he felt he accomplished everything he could in NJ. But, he never was the guy to lead the team to a Cup. He had the chance to do that, but didn't see it as a worthwhile challenge. Why not?

Gomer clearly didn't want to be the leader that Datsyuk has become. He preferred to go somewhere that had leadership (Jagr) and tradition (granted, a losing one, but still) built in. Who was around to stop him?

Lou apparently made Martin a similar offer to what he signed for. But, Martin was already focused on signing elsewhere. Why was it better to go for a shot at a Cup with a different bunch of guys?

One issue with the revolving door at head coach is that it's really been up to the players to police the room / develop loyalty to one another year after year. But, with free agency and the lockout / more players seeing that this is a business, it's hard for players by themselves to create the sense of team. Lou has used a college philosophy when running the team - that players naturally graduate, that new players step in, etc. But, replacing top end guys is not as simple at the NHL level. And - perhaps more importantly - the sense of sacrifice for the organization isn't built in the way it is for a college.

I don't know if it's stability at the head coach spot (where Detroit did go through Lewis before landing Babcock), or having a established player leadership / succession (where the torch was passed from lifelong Red Wing Yzerman and Lidstrom to lifelong Red Wings Datsyuk and Zetterberg), but there's something more than just circumstance that's changed between Detroit and NJ.

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Old
05-14-2011, 01:11 PM
  #37
tailfins
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV View Post
But I take serious umbrage with Frazen = Parise
Agree. Parise is younger and I think better. But it's not like Cleary = Parise. Franzen adds some things that Parise doesn't have, and he's clearly one of the leaders on the Red Wings.

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Old
05-14-2011, 01:49 PM
  #38
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Reputation has probably allowed the red wings players to stay at a discount and not force the GMs hand. If we had kept the players you listed, then lou wouldn't need to force signings and trades except to bolster other areas.

A world of ifs, c'est la vie

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