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Coach Wars Episode 3: Revenge of the Stiff

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Old
06-03-2011, 02:45 PM
  #76
txpd
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i think what arnott said was that he would only waive his no trade for a team with a real chance to win a cup. not a team fighting for a playoff spot and not a team happy with just getting in.

he knows all about the capitals.

i recall his comments about not believing that the caps turned the puck over was in his first game. a game that the entire roster said was a very poor game on their part and a game that they won anyway.

somehow this single comment of a first game and a bad game becomes some staple of what the caps really are on average or at their best.

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06-03-2011, 02:47 PM
  #77
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The exercise bike arnott was forced to ride in NJ, maybe actually detrimental at this point in the old warhorses career, made him want out. Getting by on smarts this far in his career, not by working out religiously. Right way wrong way, why do you use these all or nothing expressions?

Regardless of speculative pointless questions, simply gettting a new coach overnight can make a team play better. As you saw when Bruce took over, and refuse to project to what another Hershey coach can do. George brought in Arnott directives in hand to fix the team, instead of canning Bruce. It predictably failed, pinning Arnott vs the coach.

Why are you so enamored with defending Bruce? Its almost pointless to discuss this with you, your defense of anything Bruce makes me think you just like to argue.

You argue in the face of failure, his systems exposed and ineffective. Our cracker jack box offense, looks as organized as a pickup games.

You are the sole Bruce defender here. That should tell you something.

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06-03-2011, 02:56 PM
  #78
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i assume that you are talking to warden. why dont we just allow that its unanimus that bruce should be fired. then what?

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06-03-2011, 02:56 PM
  #79
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I'm not defending Bruce. I'm attacking the position that the Capitals have "Grade A steak" talent that Bruce somehow ruins. I'll buy the "it's no longer his time here" or "it's not the right fit anymore" stuff, but the talent here isn't all that exceptional beyond the top 4, and Bruce is a top 15 coach in this league by anyone's standards who isn't nuts. If there's only 1 coach in the league (is there even 1?) who could take this team to a Stanley Cup, because that coach has both the skill and the proper system, it's not Bruce's horrible coaching that makes him not that coach.

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Old
06-03-2011, 03:03 PM
  #80
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Let's put this another way, shall we. Forget available. Name all the coaches the Capitals would win the Stanley Cup with. Go.

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06-03-2011, 03:06 PM
  #81
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If your on the position that BB isn't endowed with much outside of the big four, shouldn't the owness fall on GMGM?

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06-03-2011, 03:12 PM
  #82
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That depends on your patience. If you think he should have done things to address the defense and goaltending, future salary cap be damned, then sure, he needs to go. I'll add that I'm not saying Bruce shouldn't be fired. If you think he's being patient and developing the guys he has for several future Cup runs, then I don't think you can be that surprised when you've got 3 goalies under 22 and an essentially rookie top defensive pairing and rookie 2C only finish in the top 8 in the NHL, the rest of the talent around them notwithstanding.

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06-03-2011, 03:20 PM
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
Let's put this another way, shall we. Forget available. Name all the coaches the Capitals would win the Stanley Cup with. Go.
Ron Wilson

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Old
06-03-2011, 03:56 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
All I know is Steckel was going to be the proof that BB couldn't coach and Lemaire was going to make him a stud 3rd liner and Lou had been targeting him forever and he got a whole point in his games with NJD.
Then they made him skate and NJ called him a fatty... unprepared for NHL duty in their system

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Old
06-03-2011, 10:57 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by HSHS View Post
Then they made him skate and NJ called him a fatty... unprepared for NHL duty in their system
This.

But of course the apologists will look at stats like point totals and regular season wins as measuring sticks for success. Then there's Arnott flat out calling out the Caps' lack of structure and Feds and BMO all essentially doing the same thing upon their exits.

At this point I just feel pity.

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Old
06-03-2011, 11:06 PM
  #86
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What do you think they'd say after they realized Steckel was already performing to his abilities? "Oops, we made a crap trade and over-hyped a mediocre fourth line piece"? If anything it shows Bruce was getting the most out of him, and NJ couldn't even get that.

Already discussed the whole Arnott thing. He can claim whatever he wants, its pretty obvious what Bruce's system v. Lemaire's did for him.

And Feds called BB the best coach he ever played for, or something along those lines.

So feel free to save your pity.

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Old
06-03-2011, 11:37 PM
  #87
itsjustsurvival
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
I'm not defending Bruce. I'm attacking the position that the Capitals have "Grade A steak" talent that Bruce somehow ruins. I'll buy the "it's no longer his time here" or "it's not the right fit anymore" stuff, but the talent here isn't all that exceptional beyond the top 4, and Bruce is a top 15 coach in this league by anyone's standards who isn't nuts. If there's only 1 coach in the league (is there even 1?) who could take this team to a Stanley Cup, because that coach has both the skill and the proper system, it's not Bruce's horrible coaching that makes him not that coach.
I completely agree with your thoughts here. And your post about patience.

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Old
06-04-2011, 12:38 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mrwarden View Post
Let's put this another way, shall we. Forget available. Name all the coaches the Capitals would win the Stanley Cup with. Go.
Bylsma
Green Goblin

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Old
06-04-2011, 11:37 AM
  #89
Robert Theodorson
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Originally Posted by Appreci8 View Post
If your on the position that BB isn't endowed with much outside of the big four, shouldn't the owness fall on GMGM?
If you've been reading my posts lately you should see that Ted worships the ground McPhee walks on and therefore McPhee will NEVER be held accountable for what he does wrong.

Think Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato, except McPhee is still employed 13 Cup-less years later

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06-04-2011, 01:17 PM
  #90
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How long was Poile GM? It seemed like forever. 1982-ish to 1997? McPhee's been here nearly as long and, remarkably, has achieved even less.

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06-04-2011, 01:26 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
How long was Poile GM? It seemed like forever. 1982-ish to 1997? McPhee's been here nearly as long and, remarkably, has achieved even less.
With more to work with.

People forget how much of a tight-wad Abe Polin was. He was a shrewd business man.

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06-04-2011, 01:30 PM
  #92
txpd
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
How long was Poile GM? It seemed like forever. 1982-ish to 1997? McPhee's been here nearly as long and, remarkably, has achieved even less.
what is your definition of less?

Poile's teams furthest playoff advance was the ecf where they lost in 4 straight.
The team's best regualar season record was 2nd in conference, once i think.

McPhee' furthest playoff advance has been scf
Best record has been 1st in the league, followed by 1st in the east.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but how has McPhee achieved less?

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Old
06-04-2011, 01:32 PM
  #93
txpd
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Originally Posted by EroCaps View Post
With more to work with.

People forget how much of a tight-wad Abe Polin was. He was a shrewd business man.
Poile's Caps had Langway, Stevens, Murphy, and Gartner on one team for a number of years. Thats 4 hall of famers. Do the Caps have 4 hall of famers on this current team?

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06-04-2011, 01:51 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
what is your definition of less?

Poile's teams furthest playoff advance was the ecf where they lost in 4 straight.
The team's best regualar season record was 2nd in conference, once i think.

McPhee' furthest playoff advance has been scf
Best record has been 1st in the league, followed by 1st in the east.

I am not trying to be argumentative, but how has McPhee achieved less?
There you go. Confusing things with facts again.

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Old
06-04-2011, 03:03 PM
  #95
Dirtbag59
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Originally Posted by SwedeSpeedBackstrom View Post
If you've been reading my posts lately you should see that Ted worships the ground McPhee walks on and therefore McPhee will NEVER be held accountable for what he does wrong.

Think Dan Snyder and Vinny Cerrato, except McPhee is still employed 13 Cup-less years later
Yes but unlike Vinny GMGM is at least putting them in position to compete for the cup. Under Vinny the Redskins were hoping to get above .500. It was an era where simply making the playoffs was a success and he never did it without Gibbs.

I mean I get the Vinny/McPhee comparison based on owner loyalty, but you're still comparing a complete utter failure to a guy who at the very least is competent. Like comparing Patrick Ewing to Kwame Brown.

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Old
06-04-2011, 09:25 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by txpd View Post
Poile's Caps had Langway, Stevens, Murphy, and Gartner on one team for a number of years. Thats 4 hall of famers. Do the Caps have 4 hall of famers on this current team?
That's hard to know, but one could argue "yes". Time will tell. I'm not sure what your point is, though. It almost seems like you are affirming Poile's superiority as a GM, no?

One thing to remember about those teams was the terrible goaltending. That was ultimately our downfall back in the day (aside from Gartner's yearly AWOL).

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Old
06-05-2011, 12:08 AM
  #97
txpd
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poile did more with less. did he do more? the furthest he went was the ecf. did he have less? he had 4 hall of famers and numerous other players that finished their careers with outstanding reputations(ridley, miller, johansson, hunter, bondra, pivonka and so forth).

is saying that poile was the better gm an insult? his tenure as a gm in the nhl vast in comparison with his contemperaries. he is widely considered elite. around here it would seem that he is average at best and lucky to work for two owners that couldnt be bothered with the team being better, just so long as the gm kept the lights on.

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06-16-2011, 12:53 PM
  #98
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Just wanted go bump this and remind everyone how God awful Bruce is. Claude Julien, who at times has been accused of being unimaginative, is no longer a comparison. One by one every coach compared to Bruce for the purpose of defending him is surpassing his accomplishments.

I'm completely flabbergasted by the desire to ship out guys like Semin and Green without even giving a new coach a chance. BB is not some proven coach who you assume will win with the right players. He is not our savior. You can find another BB for goodness sake.

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Old
06-16-2011, 01:45 PM
  #99
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One could argue the 97 team was Poile constructed with a few FANTASTIC McPhee tweaks. I give em both 50/50 credit on that one myself.

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06-16-2011, 01:49 PM
  #100
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Poile has done more with less his whole career. He's a excellent talent evaluator on the blueline apparently. Offense he seems to have trouble with no matter where he goes.


And hasn't Poile over the last what, 25+ years in the NHL probably dealt with two of the tightest/lowest payroll budgets for a team (in his case two, the Pollen-era Caps and the Preds)?

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