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Hamilton II: The City, The League, and The Coliseum

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Old
06-02-2011, 12:52 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by Ryan34222 View Post
6weeks ago?? doesnt sound like they gave enough time to find locally to me.. poor ATL fans
They pretty much breached every single clause in league By-Law 36.4 regarding relocation. They had the team "up for sale" privately for some time but no one could come up with the money, and even if they had, they'd still have had to deal with ASG who hold the Arena Mgmnt rights on Philips arena. They flat out refused to cover losses any further, losses that they were responsible for creating in spending a decade running the franchise into the ditch. They openly admitted to not caring about hockey or the franchise from the day they bought the Hawks, Thrashers & took over the building. Legal warfare erupted amongst the owners shortly thereafter, and it wasnt until recently that legally they were even in a position to sell the team locally or otherwise. Needless to say, they are much despised by hockey & NBA fans in Atlanta. The NHL had no choice but to expedite the sale or face lengthy litigation with ASG with the team in limbo.

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06-02-2011, 12:55 PM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
They openly admitted to not caring about hockey or the franchise from the day they bought the Hawks, Thrashers & took over the building. .
Then how the heck did they get NHL approval to be owners?

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06-02-2011, 02:03 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
Then how the heck did they get NHL approval to be owners?
They lied. They came across all Georgia Peaches & Cream. One of the members of ASG is Beau Turner, former owner Ted's son. They said all the right things publicly however privately it was an unpalatable Duck Soup that broke out into a full-on internecine legal battle. They sued each other, their legal council, everyone. Don Waddel, the GM for 10+ years who has a decent hockey pedigree coming from Detroit & a lengthy & fairly successful minor league career managing & coaching was making Ballardian player moves with the team having but one playoff showing in its entire tenure under his guidance. The group completely infuriated & alienated not only the Thrashers fan base but so too the Atlanta Hawks fans. Bettman, Daly and several other teams couldnt stand dealing with them. They treated the team like the unwanted Red Headed Stepchild. Just incredible really.

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06-04-2011, 08:47 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
They lied. They came across all Georgia Peaches & Cream. One of the members of ASG is Beau Turner, former owner Ted's son. They said all the right things publicly however privately it was an unpalatable Duck Soup that broke out into a full-on internecine legal battle. They sued each other, their legal council, everyone. Don Waddel, the GM for 10+ years who has a decent hockey pedigree coming from Detroit & a lengthy & fairly successful minor league career managing & coaching was making Ballardian player moves with the team having but one playoff showing in its entire tenure under his guidance. The group completely infuriated & alienated not only the Thrashers fan base but so too the Atlanta Hawks fans. Bettman, Daly and several other teams couldnt stand dealing with them. They treated the team like the unwanted Red Headed Stepchild. Just incredible really.
The the question that nags is...: If it was all about the brutal ownership of ASG, and not the market, why then no other purchaser willing to step forward for such a huge market? (same for Phoenix)

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06-04-2011, 11:51 AM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
The the question that nags is...: If it was all about the brutal ownership of ASG, and not the market, why then no other purchaser willing to step forward for such a huge market? (same for Phoenix)
Because ASG controls the arena. With no other venue, any potential Atlanta buyer would have to negotiate a lease with them, and there is little doubt that the terms of the lease wouldn't make owning an NHL team in Atlanta profitable.

In Phoenix, the city owns the arena and wanted to give a lease deal so good that it literally paid to owner to keep the team in Glendale. After Goldwater threatened to challenge it in court, the city is now paying up to 25 million to keep the team in Glendale this season. Essentialy, the worst case in Glendale is that a prospective owner will get to use the arena for free.

Two very different scenarios.

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06-04-2011, 12:05 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by La Grosse Tendresse View Post
Because ASG controls the arena. With no other venue, any potential Atlanta buyer would have to negotiate a lease with them, and there is little doubt that the terms of the lease wouldn't make owning an NHL team in Atlanta profitable.
So ASG is that incompetent as arena owners that they could not, or would not, make a deal with a prospective tenant for at least 41 nights a year? Hard to believe that any arena owner would not want a tenant.

Quote:
In Phoenix, the city owns the arena and wanted to give a lease deal so good that it literally paid to owner to keep the team in Glendale. After Goldwater threatened to challenge it in court, the city is now paying up to 25 million to keep the team in Glendale this season. Essentialy, the worst case in Glendale is that a prospective owner will get to use the arena for free.

Two very different scenarios.
I realize they are different, but how can a supposed market as big and as good as Phoenix, with a free, or favourable lease, not attract any owners who are willing to pay for a discounted franchise?

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06-04-2011, 12:16 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
So ASG is that incompetent as arena owners that they could not, or would not, make a deal with a prospective tenant for at least 41 nights a year? Hard to believe that any arena owner would not want a tenant.
No, it's just that you were asking what is different between Atlanta and Phoenix.

The difference is that in Atlanta, the team will have to pay market value for it's lease in an arena that already has a major tenant (Hawks). Moreso, since the team won't own the arena, they will not get any additionnal revenues from other events in the arena.

In Phoenix, the team gets paid or pays nothing to lease the arena, and they get a very favourable contract to manage the arena and thus get revenue from other events.

Both team's situations with regards to actual paying customers (hockey revenues) are probably similar, but the costs of running the team is much less in Phoenix due to the arena situation, plus they can make money running the arena.

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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
I realize they are different, but how can a supposed market as big and as good as Phoenix, with a free, or favourable lease, not attract any owners who are willing to pay for a discounted franchise?
That's what Gary and the City of Glendale is trying to figure out too... But they are probably much closer to finding an owner than in Atlanta, they had a deal in place before GWI intervened.

IMO, Phoenix is just as doomed as Atlanta was, but they haven't moved yet because there is less urgency with Glendale covering the losses, and what they can offer to prospective buyers is much better than what was possible in Atlanta.

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06-04-2011, 01:14 PM
  #183
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The problem with Phoenix is that I think the law's on the Goldwater Institute's side, and the NHL knows it. That's why they're trying everything they can do to get them off their backs to allow the bond issue to go through. Only problem is that doesn't matter to the Goldwater Institute. They don't have any constituents they need to worry about nor popularity polls. Their entire philosophy is built against the notion of the government bailing anything out, and the NHL just so happened to find itself embroiled in their backyard, meaning it guaranteed a fight.

Even if the GWI was unpopular in the Glendale area, which I'm not convinced that it is, even after all of this, all they need to do is keep fighting the NHL and the city council and they'll get support from other economic and small government conservatives (as well as the plenty of people that are adamantly opposed to any public financing of sports teams) from across the United States.

I don't see anything that the NHL can do to get them to back down, and if it goes to court I see Goldwater winning.

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06-04-2011, 01:24 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by La Grosse Tendresse View Post
No, it's just that you were asking what is different between Atlanta and Phoenix.
I don't think that's what I asked.

What I meant to ask was, why can't Atlanta and Phoenix, being the large markets that they are with so much potential and all, attract (proper) ownership that is willing to invest their own money?

Witnessing this phenomenal response in Winnipeg shows exactly why TNSE was interested in owning an NHL franchise in the "small market" of Winnipeg and not in large markets such as Atlanta and Phoenix.

Same can be said for willing investors like Balsillie and Quebecor, no?

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06-21-2011, 10:14 PM
  #185
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Well speak of the devil...

HECFI needs clear mandate to clear up its problems

KPMG releases it's report...finally...

Quote:
The report said HECFI is struggling because it’s operating in the shadow of Toronto, in a growing concentration of entertainment suppliers and has “facilities inappropriately sized for the market ... the Convention Centre is too small and Copps Coliseum is too large.”

Hamilton’s convention centre has become “one of Ontario’s smallest convention venues ... (with) the least attractive hotel package in an increasingly competitive Ontario market.”

Hamilton Place, however, was deemed an appropriate size to support the “performing arts needs of Hamilton.”

The report also said that once HECFI’s mandate is sorted out, the organization should decide on management structure. The report discusses four ownership scenarios: the status quo, third party management, offering a long-term lease and divestiture of facilities.
This is the first domino that we've been waiting for. The report goes to the GIC on Thursday, and we might get a clearer picture of what is happening after that, especially where it concerns Katz.

I said it before...Fugu...Rainmaker....

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06-21-2011, 11:14 PM
  #186
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ASG were clearly terrible owners....they did little right to nurture a fragile market....it is overlooking the realities however to lay complete blame for the failure of the franchise at their feet....atlanta was always a low revenue franchise with dismal television ratings and minimal media coverage.

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06-22-2011, 07:49 AM
  #187
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The actual KMPG report...

The City of Hamilton - Independent External Review of HECFI's Operations

...for those that like reading that sort of thing.

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06-22-2011, 07:53 AM
  #188
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
ASG were clearly terrible owners....they did little right to nurture a fragile market....it is overlooking the realities however to lay complete blame for the failure of the franchise at their feet....atlanta was always a low revenue franchise with dismal television ratings and minimal media coverage.
You had too many windows open and got confused didn't you?

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06-22-2011, 12:44 PM
  #189
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This is the first domino that we've been waiting for. The report goes to the GIC on Thursday, and we might get a clearer picture of what is happening after that, especially where it concerns Katz.
I thought the same thing when I read the article. Sounds like HECFI (or at least its managmenet/operation) needs to be privatized.

And this press release from last year is still on my mind:

Quote:
"Our work with the Katz Group in Hamilton is a natural expansion of our relationship,¯" said Bob Newman, AEG Facilities Chief Operating Officer. "We strongly believe the greater Hamilton marketplace has the potential of becoming one of the region's most active sports and entertainment markets. We look forward to working with the City and stakeholders in creating this new state of the art venue."
http://revitalizedowntown.ca/katz-gr...s-in-hamilton/

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06-22-2011, 01:44 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
....needs to be privatized.
I believe so, and Im guessing the bell's about to be wrung to start the process.

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06-22-2011, 03:52 PM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
The the question that nags is...: If it was all about the brutal ownership of ASG, and not the market, why then no other purchaser willing to step forward for such a huge market? (same for Phoenix)
Quote:
According to Waddell, he worked with a total of 22 people or groups that expressed an interest, in some form, in buying the Thrashers.
http://www.ajc.com/sports/atlanta-th...rs-984433.html

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06-22-2011, 04:15 PM
  #192
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Not "real" interest, apparently

Quote:
One by one, each failed to move into more serious negotiations. No exclusive negotiating agreement was ever signed for the Thrashers


Last edited by Hamilton Tigers: 06-22-2011 at 05:05 PM.
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06-22-2011, 05:20 PM
  #193
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Uh, yeah. Real interest fades quickly when ASG told them, "We own the operating rights to the arena, this is what you'll pay us to rent it for 44 games+playoffs, and you get no money from parking/concessions/etc."

It'd be like getting a job as a personal assistant to some rich guy where he requires you to live in a guest house, but the rent is almost all of your paycheck.

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06-22-2011, 06:34 PM
  #194
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What the devil? What is with all the ASG stuff?

Seriously, we have a release of a report that gives an inside look at arena management and a look at Hamilton and Southern Ontario as marketplace. That should be BoH gold and instead we're getting ASG kvetching, and there is already a ASG kvetching thread...

Group offered $500 million for Hawks/Philips Arena/Thrashers on May 20

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06-22-2011, 07:39 PM
  #195
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The push for privatization....

HECFI's future hangs in the balance

Quote:
These issues, which have been simmering for years, have resurfaced in the report the city commissioned after HECFI had a disastrous financial year in 2010. The agency needed $7.25 million from the city, including $2 million at the end of the year to cover losses, a $2.8-million yearly grant in April and $2 million in utility costs.

HECFI said 2010 was an unusual year marked by a recession-induced downturn in the entertainment and convention businesses. But some councillors say the organization is losing too much money and needs a new direction — possibly privatization.

“Clearly, I think we need to evaluate whether or not we should be in the entertainment business,” said Councillor Sam Merulla, who has led the charge for privatization. “I know the private sector has claimed that City Hall should be run more like a business. I encourage them to come forward and ensure it should be run the way they believe it should be.”

The overarching recommendation from the report going to council on Thursday is to clarify whether HECFI should be run like a business or a service.

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06-22-2011, 09:12 PM
  #196
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And there's this article dated April 29, 2011:

Quote:
During the first quarter of 2011, Hamilton Entertainment and Convention Facilities Inc. (HECFI) amassed a $1.156-million “operational deficit,” said board chair Marcel Mongeon.

That’s thousands more than the arms-length agency lost during the first quarter of 2010, a disastrous year that required millions in taxpayer money to balance HECFI’s books.

However, since the agency lost only $13,800 more than it budgeted to lose in that time frame, HECFI board members — who reviewed the numbers at a meeting Thursday night — say they’re satisfied.

“The fact of the matter is, the board looked at the numbers and there’s no immediate action warranted,” Mongeon said.

“We were actually pleased to see we were right on budget,” said Councillor Lloyd Ferguson, who sits on the HECFI board.

However, others say the losses demonstrate that the city shouldn’t operate an entertainment agency.

“The deficit speaks volumes of the need for radical changes that I believe must come to fruition,” said Sam Merulla, one of the most vocal proponents of privatizing HECFI. “This type of financial impact on the residents of this city is what motivated my initiative to dissolve HECFI and privatize the operation.”
http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ed-but-pleased


Yes, a push for privatization indeed.

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06-23-2011, 08:52 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Hamilton Tigers View Post
And there's this article dated April 29, 2011:


http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...ed-but-pleased


Yes, a push for privatization indeed.
I guess we will find out today (in fact it's going on as I type), where the councillors stand. Whether this is just Sam Merulla being Sam going on one of his crusades, or there is widespread support and perhaps an actual plan that involves Katz or others. I will probably try to listen in as much as I can today.

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06-23-2011, 02:45 PM
  #198
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And there's this article dated April 29, 2011:
Yes, a push for privatization indeed.
not sure thats the answer either.. the City will still have to throw cash
at whomever is looking to buy..
maybe its better we just get someone who knows what the H E Double hockey sticks they are doing at running these type of buildings..


Edit: Mayor Bob was on 900 CHML saying he may have to have a sit down with 'Peg Mayor/TSNE for help, mostly about the AHL, he thinks its the gateway to a NHL team

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06-23-2011, 03:12 PM
  #199
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Mayor Bob was on 900 CHML saying he may have to have a sit down with 'Peg Mayor/TSNE for help, mostly about the AHL, he thinks its the gateway to a NHL team
I suppose its mildly helpful in a market like Houston, where the Aero's are doing extremely well, however, in the traditional markets & specifically Hamilton, I dont see the correlation whatsoever in determining NHL viability. Call me a Snob, but lets face it, the people of Hamilton & environs dont have much of a taste for minor league hockey (particularly as its the Habs farm team amongst other factors) . They have Champagne Tastes. They've shown no propensity to settle for or even support anything less. The only "Gateway" Mayor Bob's going to pass through is one of continuing frustration & stonewalling. Winnipeg is a unique boutique style market with minor territorial obstacles, and the NHL's hand was absolutely forced by miscreant ownership in Atlanta. It would be nice to hear Chipman & Thompson pipe up in support of a team in Hamilton, but beyond that?.

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06-23-2011, 04:30 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by KzooShark View Post
Uh, yeah. Real interest fades quickly when ASG told them, "We own the operating rights to the arena, this is what you'll pay us to rent it for 44 games+playoffs, and you get no money from parking/concessions/etc."

It'd be like getting a job as a personal assistant to some rich guy where he requires you to live in a guest house, but the rent is almost all of your paycheck.
s it as bad as saying we'll sell you the parking rights for 100 million?

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