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NJD/Atl. Winnipeg Draft day

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Old
05-22-2011, 06:39 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
When have I ever said that Atlanta should get rid of Bogosian? I pretty much implied that when I mentioned that Bogosian is more of a need to Atlanta than these draft picks. I'm not the OP, I am not even an Atlanta fan although I feel bad for them having to deal with these ******** Bogosian deals I see on a daily basis. Bogosian is going to be an excellent hockey player, Atlanta has no reason to trade him(since I have to spell it out).
If Bogosian is going to be a great hockey player, then what's he waiting for?

This package is far too much for him. I don't think I would even give up 4th overall straight up.

Side note, if Atlanta is doing this for Larsson, sorry. If he's available at 4, there isn't a realistic package that can pry him out of NJ, IMO.

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05-22-2011, 07:16 PM
  #27
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I could do an elaborate analysis but I'd rather in three short letters.

BPA
How do you explain Cam Fowler slipping to 12 then?

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05-22-2011, 07:25 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by BeastoftheEast85 View Post
How do you explain Cam Fowler slipping to 12 then?
No, better yet

A Devils Favorite

How do you explain Dylan McIlrath at 10, to the Rangers ??

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05-22-2011, 07:39 PM
  #29
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How do you explain Cam Fowler slipping to 12 then?
Cam Fowler wasn't nearly as complete of a player. He clearly has defensive deficiencies. Comparing Fowler to Larsson is pretty ridiculous I would say. If it makes you feel any better, there is a ridiculously miniscule chance he gets chosen 4th overall or worse, but its as good of a chance as Victor Hedman going 4th in his draft year. It would be a miracle and really I am so confident I am saying it wont happen. I was browsing the Devils board and will give kudos that most of your fans are setting very logical and realistic expectations for the draft, but this Larsson stuff is a f**king joke unless you trade up.

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05-22-2011, 07:41 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
If Bogosian is going to be a great hockey player, then what's he waiting for?

This package is far too much for him. I don't think I would even give up 4th overall straight up.

Side note, if Atlanta is doing this for Larsson, sorry. If he's available at 4, there isn't a realistic package that can pry him out of NJ, IMO.
Ask the Sedins what took them so long, then get back to me.

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05-22-2011, 07:41 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Cam Fowler wasn't nearly as complete of a player. He clearly has defensive deficiencies. Comparing Fowler to Larsson is pretty ridiculous I would say. If it makes you feel any better, there is a ridiculously miniscule chance he gets chosen 4th overall or worse, but its as good of a chance as Victor Hedman going 4th in his draft year. It would be a miracle and really I am so confident I am saying it wont happen. I was browsing the Devils board and will give kudos that most of your fans are setting very logical and realistic expectations for the draft, but this Larsson stuff is a f**king joke unless you trade up.
When did he ever tell you to Compare Larsson and Fowler ???

He asked why did Fowler slip all the way down to 12, when he was projected to go much higher. Dont change the question, when you know your wrong .

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05-22-2011, 07:51 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Cam Fowler wasn't nearly as complete of a player. He clearly has defensive deficiencies. Comparing Fowler to Larsson is pretty ridiculous I would say. If it makes you feel any better, there is a ridiculously miniscule chance he gets chosen 4th overall or worse, but its as good of a chance as Victor Hedman going 4th in his draft year. It would be a miracle and really I am so confident I am saying it wont happen. I was browsing the Devils board and will give kudos that most of your fans are setting very logical and realistic expectations for the draft, but this Larsson stuff is a f**king joke unless you trade up.
OK, Mr. Expert... Good to know you think that.

Some professional analyst have him going 4rth or 5th, I know it is more likely he is than not, but it won't take a miracle like you say it will. Definitely big enough chance to leave it on the table.

And comparing Fowler slipping 7-9 spots from where most people on this board expected to Larsson slipping 2 is not ridiculous a all. Larsson isn't the next Lidstrom as he has been hyped up to be or he would be the undisputed first. I actually like SC more anyway.

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05-22-2011, 07:53 PM
  #33
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Ask the Sedins what took them so long, then get back to me.
Because most players that struggle early on see the success the Sedins somehow found.

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05-22-2011, 08:00 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by DevsFan7545 View Post
When did he ever tell you to Compare Larsson and Fowler ???

He asked why did Fowler slip all the way down to 12, when he was projected to go much higher. Dont change the question, when you know your wrong .
I don't see that. Cam Fowler was not a surefire top 3 pick. He didn't have nearly enough of a defensive game for that. I don't understand how he slipped down to 12. He should have been drafted in the top 10 but I get why he wasnt top 5. Larsson is much more comparable to Hedman as far as skill and projections go. What you are saying is the equivalent of me saying well Brandon Gormley slipped 10 spots in the draft rankings so far so that means Hedman could have slipped to 4th overall. Clearly there is a difference between these players pre draft.

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05-22-2011, 08:02 PM
  #35
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Because most players that struggle early on see the success the Sedins somehow found.
You make it sound that defenseman who are top prospects just automatically flourish into #1 Dman in a matter of a year or two and require no time. I will say this once, there is only one Drew Doughty in the NHL.

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05-22-2011, 08:15 PM
  #36
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You make it sound that defenseman who are top prospects just automatically flourish into #1 Dman in a matter of a year or two and require no time. I will say this once, there is only one Drew Doughty in the NHL.
Just from that draft alone there is also an Alex Pietrangelo, Tyler Myers, Erik Karlsson, and John Carlson. I am not saying Bogo doesn't have #1 potential, but he is a little behind development for a guy with 200 NHL games of experiance.

And the Sedins are a very, very unique case. I can't think of any other high draft picks that continued to improve into their 30s.

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05-22-2011, 08:28 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by BeastoftheEast85 View Post
Just from that draft alone there is also an Alex Pietrangelo, Tyler Myers, Erik Karlsson, and John Carlson. I am not saying Bogo doesn't have #1 potential, but he is a little behind development for a guy with 200 NHL games of experiance.

And the Sedins are a very, very unique case. I can't think of any other high draft picks that continued to improve into their 30s.

I don't think you get it, if any of those teams have a first pairing of Enstrom and Buff and are forced on a pairing with Oduya or Hainsey, their defenseman are getting 5 goals or less as well. Karlsson included, I've watched him a ton but he has benefitted from a lack of defense on the team, as has each other player you mentioned. I ask you what would it take for Bogosian to become a #1 defenseman in your books then?

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05-22-2011, 08:32 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
I don't think you get it, if any of those teams have a first pairing of Enstrom and Buff and are forced on a pairing with Oduya or Hainsey, their defenseman are getting 5 goals or less as well. Karlsson included, I've watched him a ton but he has benefitted from a lack of defense on the team, as has each other player you mentioned. I ask you what would it take for Bogosian to become a #1 defenseman in your books then?
Lol because Myers played with great Dmen this year.

So did Carlson right ? They both have decent Dmen with them, but are ahead of Bogosian in terms of becoming #1 Dmen

Carlson, and Myers had 20 more points this year.

Pietrangelo had 26 more points

Karlsson 28 points more.

Those are pretty big amounts. 1 Different D partner doesnt change it that much.

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05-22-2011, 08:36 PM
  #39
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why not trade up and select Larsson? Where NJ wants a certain player, Col may not think that the value between the 2nd and 4th is that great, if the Dev's can entice them enough...
What would NJ offer for the 2nd overall?

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05-22-2011, 08:48 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
I don't think you get it, if any of those teams have a first pairing of Enstrom and Buff and are forced on a pairing with Oduya or Hainsey, their defenseman are getting 5 goals or less as well. Karlsson included, I've watched him a ton but he has benefitted from a lack of defense on the team, as has each other player you mentioned. I ask you what would it take for Bogosian to become a #1 defenseman in your books then?
So Bogosian is on the 2nd pair, and therefore facing (generally) the opponents second line. And he still is behind the list of a D-men provided before.

He still has time, sure, but I guarantee that on draft day if you asked the Thrasher fans where Bogo would be after 200 games, they would have provided expectations that he hasn't reached yet.

And how does a D-man "benefit" from a lack of defensive help, exactly?

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05-22-2011, 08:52 PM
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What would NJ offer for the 2nd overall?
4th overall + Urbom?

4th overall + 2012 WSH 2nd + Vasyunov?

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05-22-2011, 08:55 PM
  #42
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Lol because Myers played with great Dmen this year.

So did Carlson right ? They both have decent Dmen with them, but are ahead of Bogosian in terms of becoming #1 Dmen

Carlson, and Myers had 20 more points this year.

Pietrangelo had 26 more points

Karlsson 28 points more.

Those are pretty big amounts. 1 Different D partner doesnt change it that much.
Carlson : On a much more explosive offensive team. Alot of secondary assists I'm assuming. Bogosian doesn't have that on the secondary lines of Atlanta. See Bogosian goal totals when Buff wasn't there. 9G 10G seasons as 18-19 year old.

Myers: Even if Bogosian outscores Myers its clear who the better Dman is.

Pietrangelo: Have you seriously not ever heard of Enstrom or Byfuglien? If Pietrangelo was put in a defensive role you really think he will score 11 goals? Seriously!

Karlsson : One of the most explosive offensive dmen in the league, and as a sens fan a huge headache on the defensive end. If Ottawa has Buff and Enstrom, who is gonna hand the PP ranks over to an unproven rookie(his bread and butter)

You can't just put point totals down without taking into account the scenario of each team. Very good example.

Mikhail Grabovski : 58 points
Rick Nash : 66 points

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05-22-2011, 09:36 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by apice3 View Post
So Bogosian is on the 2nd pair, and therefore facing (generally) the opponents second line. And he still is behind the list of a D-men provided before.

He still has time, sure, but I guarantee that on draft day if you asked the Thrasher fans where Bogo would be after 200 games, they would have provided expectations that he hasn't reached yet.

And how does a D-man "benefit" from a lack of defensive help, exactly?
Bogosian always faces the top offensive line. The 1st pair (Buff and Tobi) get all of the O-zone time and Bogo-Oduya/Hainsey are left to be the shut-down guys.

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05-22-2011, 09:45 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Carlson : On a much more explosive offensive team. Alot of secondary assists I'm assuming. Bogosian doesn't have that on the secondary lines of Atlanta. See Bogosian goal totals when Buff wasn't there. 9G 10G seasons as 18-19 year old.

Myers: Even if Bogosian outscores Myers its clear who the better Dman is.

Pietrangelo: Have you seriously not ever heard of Enstrom or Byfuglien? If Pietrangelo was put in a defensive role you really think he will score 11 goals? Seriously!

Karlsson : One of the most explosive offensive dmen in the league, and as a sens fan a huge headache on the defensive end. If Ottawa has Buff and Enstrom, who is gonna hand the PP ranks over to an unproven rookie(his bread and butter)

You can't just put point totals down without taking into account the scenario of each team. Very good example.

Mikhail Grabovski : 58 points
Rick Nash : 66 points
So you are seriously arguing Bogo is better or at the same level as all these guys?

Carlson did not stack up secondaries, he took over when Green was injured and led the D of a team took #1 in the east.

Pietrangelo was so good they traded EJ. Karlsson had to compete with Gonchar, one of the best offensive D men of the last decade along with Filip Kuba, who he completely booted from an offensive role.

If any one of these guys were in Atlanta, then they never would have switched Buff back to D and that young D man would be wrecking with Enstrom. The Fact is that Bogo hasn't indicated he is on that level that a young #1 should be at with his time in the NHL, doesn't mean he can't become one but their is a large risk factor.

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05-22-2011, 10:17 PM
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As a Jets fan, I would accept that deal in a heartbeat.

Bogo- who it's unclear if he will ever come close to his ceiling of expectations- is certainly worth the huge boost to our prospect pool which is kinda shallow right now.

Palmieri is instantly one of our best prospects, 4th overall is a core piece, and nice young D is a terrific addition.

Sign me up

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05-22-2011, 10:17 PM
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i owuldnt trace bogosian to nj unless it was for teneby+ or merril+. one of nj's top prospects have to be coming back if they want someone with bogosians potential. i like urbom and he could be a piece but then its more quantity for quality.

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05-22-2011, 10:21 PM
  #47
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As a Jets fan, I would accept that deal in a heartbeat.

Bogo- who it's unclear if he will ever come close to his ceiling of expectations- is certainly worth the huge boost to our prospect pool which is kinda shallow right now.

Palmieri is instantly one of our best prospects, 4th overall is a core piece, and nice young D is a terrific addition.

Sign me up
Urbom is a better prospect than Palmieri

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05-22-2011, 10:25 PM
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Urbom is a better prospect than Palmieri
ah ****, I thinkin of Kyle Palmieri. Still, Nick is a good prospect too.

The 4th overall alone I would probably take for Bogo right now.

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05-22-2011, 10:44 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by TheBigTicket View Post
i owuldnt trace bogosian to nj unless it was for teneby+ or merril+. one of nj's top prospects have to be coming back if they want someone with bogosians potential. i like urbom and he could be a piece but then its more quantity for quality.
Urbom is quality. It wasn't so very long ago that Lou described him as the Devils' top defensive prospect. Only the arrival of Merrill knocked him from that spot.

Like others have said, no chance the deal in the OP goes through, unless Lou becomes convinced that the Devils can mould Bogosian into the next Stevens.

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05-23-2011, 08:58 AM
  #50
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So you are seriously arguing Bogo is better or at the same level as all these guys?

Carlson did not stack up secondaries, he took over when Green was injured and led the D of a team took #1 in the east.

Pietrangelo was so good they traded EJ. Karlsson had to compete with Gonchar, one of the best offensive D men of the last decade along with Filip Kuba, who he completely booted from an offensive role.

If any one of these guys were in Atlanta, then they never would have switched Buff back to D and that young D man would be wrecking with Enstrom. The Fact is that Bogo hasn't indicated he is on that level that a young #1 should be at with his time in the NHL, doesn't mean he can't become one but their is a large risk factor.
Carlson took them there? You forgot about Scott Hannan, Dennis Wideman, Karl Alzner and Jeff Schultz. Washington had a stacked defense and Carlson is a talented young player there for the ride.

St. Louis traded EJ because they got a young proven power forward 30 goal man at a young age and Pietrangelo in return. Basically highway robbery. Its funny you mention that, because if Atlanta has no interest in trading Bogosian, this is closer to the ballpark what it would take.

Kuba was injured for the first half of the year and was doing PP duties because Ottawa's defense core was so thin and Gonchar just simply wasn't that good this year(it didn't help that he was playing on his opposite side alot).

If any one of those guys were in Atlanta, they would absolutely be held back because of Buff. I can't believe you are saying that. The only ONE of those players who had a really respectable year even close to Bogo was Myers who I wont argue is obviously better now and later.

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