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Tor - Phi (yes carter)

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Old
05-24-2011, 07:32 PM
  #101
Crisp Breakout
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Just like in the Stastny threads, if you are going to call Kulemin a 30-30 guy then you best be calling Carter a 45-40 guy.

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05-24-2011, 07:33 PM
  #102
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QUOTE=glucker;33220673]How about Grabovski and Gunnarsson for Giroux&JVR?[/QUOTE]


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05-24-2011, 07:35 PM
  #103
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QUOTE=glucker;33220673]How about Grabovski and Gunnarsson for Giroux&JVR?
[/QUOTE]

at least you didn't get mad

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05-24-2011, 07:45 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by TheStu View Post
Just like in the Stastny threads, if you are going to call Kulemin a 30-30 guy then you best be calling Carter a 45-40 guy.
hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" kind of sport. Carter hasn't done that lately, Kulemin has.

The other point worth noting is that Carter did that with the help of a hot streak, Kulemin has consistently been the Leafs' best player since last season's deadline.

But yes, in any case, Carter is more proven offensively than Kulemin, there's no denying that. Even his reduced totals are higher than Kulemin's best.

It's just that Kulemin has the potential to improve, and as it stands, whatever line he's on automatically becomes our best line. Last year he was with Kessel and Bozak, and they both looked better than they did this season.

This season he was with Grabo and MacArthur, and both had career seasons, and when Kessel was slumping they put him with Kulemin and Grabo and he got back on his hot-streak.

Kulemin is our best forward right now. He's right up there with Kessel offensively, he's great defensively, he's physical, and he's got tons of heart. He's on the road to becoming a top line powerforward. We're weary of losing that kind potential for anything short of a home-run. And while Carter is a very good player as well, he does play on a far better team, and he doesn't fill the #1 priorty, which is a top line center to play with Kessel.

Can Carter be a top line center? I think so. Is he a good fit for Kessel? Nope.

Carter hasn't been so much better recently that it's worth the risk to give up on Kulemin's potential, and then add some, and take on the extra cap hit.

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05-24-2011, 07:49 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" kind of sport. Carter hasn't done that lately, Kulemin has.
Incorrect, HFboards fits this description, not hockey as a sport.

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05-24-2011, 07:51 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by TheStu View Post
Just like in the Stastny threads, if you are going to call Kulemin a 30-30 guy then you best be calling Carter a 45-40 guy.
Exactly, if Kulemin is a thirty goal guy (which he's done once), then Carter is a 45 goal scorer. I'm not saying anything about the trade because I think it wouldn't make much sense from a Leaf's prospective, but let's not act like Carter wouldn't be a great pickup for any team in the league. He's a consistent 30-40 goal guy that plays a great two-way game, seems like a legit first line center to me.

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05-24-2011, 07:56 PM
  #107
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Oh really now? If we want a quality top 4 d-man, we'd have to overpay for his services. We already have 2 guys on our D being overpaid (Phaneuf, Komisarek). Theres no one in our system who could replace Kulemin. And I doubt other teams would trade a 30 goal, defensively responsible winger or let them reach free agency. And if we do make a trade to fill the gap that these players left, it'll cost us more assets. Effectively killing the farm and what depth we had.

I'm the "bazillionth" Leaf fan to say this because it's true. Unless you have a surplus players at a certain position, you don't make these kind of deals. Take Boston, they traded Colborne for Kaberle because they have great centre depth. They could afford to lose Colborne. We can't afford to lose Kulemin or AUlie.

Obviously the #1 centre position is important, but the cost for Carter would be to high to aquire him.
With your logic then the only way the Leafs will get a #1 Centre is by drafting and developing 1 because if fans aren't willing to create holes on their 2nd line wing, and #4 Dman then no deal would ever get done. When was the last time a legit 1st line centre was traded? Thorton and Richards? Gagne was moved for a song, he could replace a Kulemin type. Higgins signed for 1.5 I believe after 3 seasons of 20+ goals and 1st line PK time. Zherdev was available - non of these guys had Kulemin's season but Gagne and Carter are better then Kulemin and Bozak. If Toronto fans think they can rebuild quickly, but won't part with 2nd tier players to make that happen, they will be very disappointed I fear.

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05-24-2011, 07:58 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
hockey is a "what have you done for me lately" kind of sport. Carter hasn't done that lately, Kulemin has.

The other point worth noting is that Carter did that with the help of a hot streak, Kulemin has consistently been the Leafs' best player since last season's deadline.

But yes, in any case, Carter is more proven offensively than Kulemin, there's no denying that. Even his reduced totals are higher than Kulemin's best.

It's just that Kulemin has the potential to improve, and as it stands, whatever line he's on automatically becomes our best line. Last year he was with Kessel and Bozak, and they both looked better than they did this season.

This season he was with Grabo and MacArthur, and both had career seasons, and when Kessel was slumping they put him with Kulemin and Grabo and he got back on his hot-streak.

Kulemin is our best forward right now. He's right up there with Kessel offensively, he's great defensively, he's physical, and he's got tons of heart. He's on the road to becoming a top line powerforward. We're weary of losing that kind potential for anything short of a home-run. And while Carter is a very good player as well, he does play on a far better team, and he doesn't fill the #1 priorty, which is a top line center to play with Kessel.

Can Carter be a top line center? I think so. Is he a good fit for Kessel? Nope.

Carter hasn't been so much better recently that it's worth the risk to give up on Kulemin's potential, and then add some, and take on the extra cap hit.
I don't think hockey is a what have you done for me lately sport.... not at all. I agree that it's foolish to call Carter a 45 goal scorer. My point was more that you shouldn't act like Kulemin is an established 30-30 guy when in fact he has never even reached those totals and has approached them once. It seems commonplace in Leafs proposals for the other team's players to be considered based on their weakest season versus a career year for Leaf's players.

That said, I don't think you should be parting with Kulemin. He's one of the pieces that works for you all. I'd put him in your secondary core, maybe on the fringe of the core.

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05-24-2011, 07:58 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Incorrect, HFboards fits this description, not hockey as a sport.
No, hockey fits this very well. Look at the deals Burke made for Lupul and Phaneuf.

Lupul is two years removed from a 25/25 season with the Flyers, and one season removed from a great start 10 goals in 20 games, before getting injured. And before those seasons he looked even better with 20 in 56 (~30 goal pace) and 28 goal seasons. But he was had along with a good defensive prospect for a 2nd pairing d-man in Beauch.

Phaneuf was 2 years removed from a 60 point season and he was had for mostly spare parts, and also came with a very good defensive prospect in Aulie.

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05-24-2011, 08:02 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by TheStu View Post
I don't think hockey is a what have you done for me lately sport.... not at all. I agree that it's foolish to call Carter a 45 goal scorer. My point was more that you shouldn't act like Kulemin is an established 30-30 guy when in fact he has never even reached those totals and has approached them once. It seems commonplace in Leafs proposals for the other team's players to be considered based on their weakest season versus a career year for Leaf's players.

That said, I don't think you should be parting with Kulemin. He's one of the pieces that works for you all. I'd put him in your secondary core, maybe on the fringe of the core.
Kulemin did actually hit 30 this year. And while he shouldn't be treated as an established 30 goal guy by other teams, that is his value to the Leafs, if not higher. And he's definitely a core player. Most Leafs fans will take him over Kessel. I **** thee not. We see him as the best forward on the team, if not the best player, because he's the only one who makes those around him better.

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05-24-2011, 08:05 PM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glucker View Post
No, hockey fits this very well. Look at the deals Burke made for Lupul and Phaneuf.

Lupul is two years removed from a 25/25 season with the Flyers, and one season removed from a great start 10 goals in 20 games, before getting injured. And before those seasons he looked even better with 20 in 56 (~30 goal pace) and 28 goal seasons. But he was had along with a good defensive prospect for a 2nd pairing d-man in Beauch.

Phaneuf was 2 years removed from a 60 point season and he was had for mostly spare parts, and also came with a very good defensive prospect in Aulie.
So the guy with 115 goals the past three seasons and was at 0.825 PPG this past season hasn't gotten it done lately?

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05-24-2011, 08:10 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by mercury View Post
So the guy with 115 goals the past three seasons and was at 0.825 PPG this past season hasn't gotten it done lately?
2 seasons ago, Carter was coming off an 80+ point season. His value then was that of an 80 point player.

Since then, he's been in the mid-60s.

When we're talking trade, GMs will point to the 60 point seasons, not the 80 point season to gauge his value.

This is in response to the person wondering why we would consider Kulemin a 30/30 guy, but wouldn't consider Carter a 45/40 guy.

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05-24-2011, 08:15 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Kulemin did actually hit 30 this year. And while he shouldn't be treated as an established 30 goal guy by other teams, that is his value to the Leafs, if not higher. And he's definitely a core player. Most Leafs fans will take him over Kessel. I **** thee not. We see him as the best forward on the team, if not the best player, because he's the only one who makes those around him better.
He didn't hit 30 assists. He was a 30-27 guy, not a 30-30 guy.

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05-24-2011, 08:17 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by TheStu View Post
He didn't hit 30 assists. He was a 30-27 guy, not a 30-30 guy.
yea, sorry, when I first read it, I thought you meant he hadn't hit either total (30 goals or 30 assists)

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05-24-2011, 08:41 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phion Keneuf View Post
Kulemin > Carter.

I would do that package for Giroux, not Carter
lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by Liferleafer View Post
Nope...fills one hole...creates 2 more big holes plus gives up futures.
Tell me, which hole is most important? 1st line center(that plays PP and PK), or 2nd line LW and 3rd pairing defenseman?

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05-24-2011, 08:57 PM
  #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
lol



Tell me, which hole is most important? 1st line center(that plays PP and PK), or 2nd line LW and 3rd pairing defenseman?
You mean 1st line LW and 1st pairing Dman (on the leafs)?

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05-24-2011, 09:00 PM
  #117
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KULEMIN IS NOT going anywhere.. BEASTTTTTT

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05-24-2011, 09:05 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by BiLLY_ShOE1721 View Post
lol



Tell me, which hole is most important? 1st line center(that plays PP and PK), or 2nd line LW and 3rd pairing defenseman?
Aulie's first pairing with Phaneuf. And obviously we need a first line centre (and it's more important) but not at the expense of key peices from our core.

It takes them to get Carter, then how do we replace those two. We need 2 scoring lines at least and taking Kulemin away would essentially give us one. Take Aulie out and we have to play Lebda, Lashoff, or Finger (all of whom are not as good). We can sign two free-agents, but that would take up a lot of cap space. Especially to get two players of Kulemins (30 goal 2-way forward) and Aulies (good shutdown D who can play with Phaneuf) calibre. And I doubt teams would let players who could replace these guys make it to free agency. More trades? That would kill the farm. We wouldn't and couldn't deal anymore from our core and no one is going to give up a solid shutdown D and 2-way forward away for nothing.

Honestly the value here is fine, but doing this trade would cause a chain of events that would make us worse in the long run.

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05-24-2011, 09:33 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
No, hockey fits this very well. Look at the deals Burke made for Lupul and Phaneuf.

Lupul is two years removed from a 25/25 season with the Flyers, and one season removed from a great start 10 goals in 20 games, before getting injured. And before those seasons he looked even better with 20 in 56 (~30 goal pace) and 28 goal seasons. But he was had along with a good defensive prospect for a 2nd pairing d-man in Beauch.

Phaneuf was 2 years removed from a 60 point season and he was had for mostly spare parts, and also came with a very good defensive prospect in Aulie.
Yes, let's use Brian Burke and his esteemed trading wisdom for proof of your theory. The Flyers weren't shopping Jeff Carter, so if Brian Burke wants him, he'd have to pay. Otherwise what's the point of trading Jeff Carter (whom the organization has publically stated they don't intend on trading, and is an integral part of the organization).

Maybe he's simply kicking the tires, but I doubt Burke believes he can compare Carter to say Grabovski and use the "well he's just a 60 point player" argument and obtain him for scraps. Why? It's narrow-minded and ridiculous.

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05-24-2011, 09:43 PM
  #120
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I don't think Carter is the right centre for Phil so this makes no sense.

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05-24-2011, 09:58 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by decadentia View Post
Yes, let's use Brian Burke and his esteemed trading wisdom for proof of your theory. The Flyers weren't shopping Jeff Carter, so if Brian Burke wants him, he'd have to pay. Otherwise what's the point of trading Jeff Carter (whom the organization has publically stated they don't intend on trading, and is an integral part of the organization).

Maybe he's simply kicking the tires, but I doubt Burke believes he can compare Carter to say Grabovski and use the "well he's just a 60 point player" argument and obtain him for scraps. Why? It's narrow-minded and ridiculous.
Both the sources of this rumour(CSNPhilly article & ***************) have Philly looking to make the move.

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05-24-2011, 10:06 PM
  #122
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Both the sources of this rumour(CSNPhilly article & ***************) have Philly looking to make the move.
Link to CSNPhilly saying the Flyers are shopping Carter? I've seen nothing of the sort.

And I thought the *************** rumor just said that a trade was in the works, not that Carter was being shopped.


I think you're hearing what you want. If the Flyers were shopping Carter, they'd have a lot more logical places to go then Toronto.

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05-24-2011, 10:12 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
Both the sources of this rumour(CSNPhilly article & ***************) have Philly looking to make the move.
CSN Philly does not say anything about looking to move Carter, and Eklund (who is a clown but does, in fact, have some Philly sources) say that it is Toronto going after Carter.

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05-24-2011, 10:15 PM
  #124
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Link to CSNPhilly saying the Flyers are shopping Carter? I've seen nothing of the sort.

And I thought the *************** rumor just said that a trade was in the works, not that Carter was being shopped.


I think you're hearing what you want. If the Flyers were shopping Carter, they'd have a lot more logical places to go then Toronto.
http://www.csnphilly.com/05/12/11/Fl...05&feedID=2231


Quote:
At this point, even club chairman Ed Snider said in recent interview that the Flyers need to trade some players to gain cap dollars.

Among Briere ($6.5 millon), Mike Richards ($5.75), Jeff Carter ($5.27) and Hartnell ($4.2), at least one of them has to be traded to gain additional cap space. There is no other solution.

Among that group, assuming the Flyers trade a marquee player with a $5 million salary, Carter is the most likely candidate. Toronto, among others, would love him.
and for the *************** rumour...

I may be wrong. Could have sworn I saw a tweet with him saying that it was Philly that was pursuing the deal, but i can't find it now. My bad.

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05-24-2011, 10:17 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by glucker View Post
http://www.csnphilly.com/05/12/11/Fl...05&feedID=2231




and for the *************** rumour...

I may be wrong. Could have sworn I saw a tweet with him saying that it was Philly that was pursuing the deal, but i can't find it now. My bad.
Dude, that is Panaccio saying that, not Ed Snider. Are you guys lacking reading comprehension?

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