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Ryan Nugent-Hopkins - Edmonton Oilers

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Old
06-02-2011, 07:07 PM
  #101
tsnTpoint
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
Not even close. Rocco Grimaldi obviously earns that title by a landslide margin. Beyond that, Austin Czarnik, Tomas Jurco, Lino Martschni, Daniel Catenacci, JG Pageau, Ryan Strome, Ryan Murphy, Shane McColgan, Matt Nieto and Alex Khokhlachev all blow RNH out of the water in terms of agility, and that's just off the top of my head.
In terms of speed and acceleration possibly, but in terms of "agility" there is no chance. RNH is the most agile person in this draft hands down. He literally jumps around opponents when they try throwing hits at him.

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06-02-2011, 07:08 PM
  #102
BluechipBulletin
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Originally Posted by bacheesh View Post
Link?
Zelda?

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Originally Posted by bacheesh View Post
Just because your not a Hall guy, doesn't mean Oilers made the wrong choice, and that your opinion is always right.
The Oilers made the wrong choice because they picked the inferior player at a position of strength rather than the superior player at a position of weakness. And I've never claimed that my opinion is always right, but it is in this case.

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06-02-2011, 07:08 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
I'm wondering the same thing about you.



It's not rationale, it's simple observation.

As for the rest of your post, it's kind of hard to take someone seriously about a player when they have that player as their avatar.
Well, I can find tons of video and examples proving my points. If you can find the same to prove yours I'd love to see them....

And really? You're judging someone based on their avatar? Maybe I should judge you and say my opinion is 10x better than yours because you have < 150 posts? Gladly for you, I wouldn't.


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Old
06-02-2011, 07:08 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jabba11 View Post
Maybe because he reminds people of Kyle Turris?
While he should be reminding people of Patrick Kane.

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Old
06-02-2011, 07:09 PM
  #105
BluechipBulletin
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Originally Posted by tsnTpoint View Post
In terms of speed and acceleration possibly, but in terms of "agility" there is no chance. RNH is the most agile person in this draft hands down. He literally jumps around opponents when they try throwing hits at him.
...spoken like someone who has never seen Rocco Grimaldi play.

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06-02-2011, 07:11 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
I saw Hall live last year a ton of times and never once saw him muscle anyone who wasn't smaller than he was. It's just not the style of player that he was or is. Never has been. That was pure hype.



That wasn't much of a series, other than Game 4, and I think the Oilers fans who watched that series and judged Seguin by it were badly misled by Seguin's lack of production in that series.

What you did see in that series that I thought was telling was that Hall beat Seguin on the draw almost every time. Given Hall's style and the concerns about his durability, I think the Oilers should move him to center. He has played center in the past, so it wouldn't be new to him. He'd be a lot more effective there than on the wing. He'd have to learn to play defense, but his offense would improve drastically IMO.
Between the regular season and playoffs I probably watched about 20 Spitfires games. Considering we've seen Hall out muscle players bigger than him in the NHL, I don't think his strength was all hype at the junior level. You look at the pictures of him him at the combine last year and you can see that his legs and shoulders are huge. He was a very strong 185 pound player.

...and as I said before, I watched Seguin quite a bit last season so my opinion of him wasn't based just on that series. Not that I actually expect you to waste your time doing it but if you were to check my post history from around this time last year, you'd see that I was a huge Seguin defender even though I did hope the Oilers drafted Hall. So much so that people actually thought I was hoping the Oilers picked Seguin. I liked what I saw from him. When I say I like RNH more, it's not a shot at Seguin at all. I just don't think the score sheet tells the whole story with Seguin. He had a coach that was very aware of the scoring race with Hall.

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Originally Posted by Pick Six View Post
I agree with most of what you've said, expect for the bolded.

The jury is still out about Hall being the best player out of the draft, let alone anyone else. It's way too early to determine the outcome of the 2010 Draft.
I realize nothing is set in stone and that's why I said "on paper". What people expect to happen on draft day and what actually happens can(and usually are) two completely different things.

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06-02-2011, 07:12 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
...spoken like someone who has never seen Rocco Grimaldi play.
I don't think anyone would argue RNH has better top-end speed than guys like Grimaldi, but he's just as "agile" and shifty with the puck, while being about 6+ inches bigger than him, which makes it more difficult.

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06-02-2011, 07:15 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
I'm far from a Hall guy. The Oilers made the wrong decision last season, without a doubt.

That said, what you're saying about Hall isn't true. Hall didn't put up points in junior because he was stronger than everyone else. I never saw him muscle anyone other than Daniel Erlich and Mike Catenacci. He had the cojones to go into the corners when he needed to, but to say that he muscled people around is simply not the case.

As for him playing against players that were bigger than he was, I guess you haven't seen the 09-10 Plymouth lineup. Barrie wasn't exactly small, either.

Hall got a lot of his points by dangling around the guys he couldn't speed past. He was very good at getting his shot off quickly while off-balance. He wasn't a power forward by any stretch of the imagination.

He does have legs like tree trunks though.
The funny part is you mention that RNH is going to eat lots of big checks from 6'3 230lbs NHL defensman, when RNH very rarely if ever leaves himself exposed to big checks anywhere on the ice, yet Taylor Hall almost weekly was nailed in open ice skating with his head down.

How many big checks does Datsyuk take?

I think the whole point is Taylor Hall's body is more physically developed, he may not be Zack Kassian, but his advanced physique compared to RNH allowed him to be more physical.

RNH plays a completely different game...and if you can project that game where he is underdeveloped physically to where he will be when he is more physically developed - he could probably be dominating - like a Patrick Kane.

Right now RNH looks like a 13year old kid, man strength will come....how soon no one knows, but he isnt going to be a 170lb NHLer in his prime for sure.

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06-02-2011, 07:20 PM
  #109
BluechipBulletin
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Originally Posted by Wheatking View Post
Between the regular season and playoffs I probably watched about 20 Spitfires games. Considering we've seen Hall out muscle players bigger than him in the NHL, I don't think his strength was all hype at the junior level. You look at the pictures of him him at the combine last year and you can see that his legs and shoulders are huge. He was a very strong 185 pound player.

...and as I said before, I watched Seguin quite a bit last season so my opinion of him wasn't based just on that series. Not that I actually expect you to waste your time doing it but if you were to check my post history from around this time last year, you'd see that I was a huge Seguin defender even though I did hope the Oilers drafted Hall. So much so that people actually thought I was hoping the Oilers picked Seguin. I liked what I saw from him. When I say I like RNH more, it's not a shot at Seguin at all. I just don't think the score sheet tells the whole story with Seguin. He had a coach that was very aware of the scoring race with Hall.

I realize nothing is set in stone and that's why I said "on paper". What people expect to happen on draft day and what actually happens can(and usually are) two completely different things.
Oh, I don't care if you prefer RNH to Seguin. I think Seguin was underappreciated last year (not that he didn't have his flaws), and the mischaracterizations of his attributes were both humorous and aggravating.

The fact that Hall is probably a better pure goal-scorer while Seguin is a better playmaker was particularly strange when you consider that Seguin had more goals and Hall had more assists.

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Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
I don't think anyone would argue RNH has better top-end speed than guys like Grimaldi, but he's just as "agile" and shifty with the puck, while being about 6+ inches bigger than him, which makes it more difficult.
More difficult for a 6'1" guy to move like a 5'6" guy with the same weight? Yes.
RNH was just as agile and shifty with the puck as Grimaldi? Not even close.

Grimaldi is much faster than RNH and makes moves at full speed that RNH can't do when he's gliding.

As someone else pointed out, and I forgot to add it before, RNH isn't capable of making plays at top speed. That's a really bad sign. So in the event that he does develop above-average speed with which to make the room that he needs to have in order to be effective offensively, he doesn't have the ability to be productive at full speed anyway.

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06-02-2011, 07:20 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
I'm far from a Hall guy. The Oilers made the wrong decision last season, without a doubt.

That said, what you're saying about Hall isn't true. Hall didn't put up points in junior because he was stronger than everyone else. I never saw him muscle anyone other than Daniel Erlich and Mike Catenacci. He had the cojones to go into the corners when he needed to, but to say that he muscled people around is simply not the case.

As for him playing against players that were bigger than he was, I guess you haven't seen the 09-10 Plymouth lineup. Barrie wasn't exactly small, either.

Hall got a lot of his points by dangling around the guys he couldn't speed past. He was very good at getting his shot off quickly while off-balance. He wasn't a power forward by any stretch of the imagination.

He does have legs like tree trunks though.
I don't know why you guys are arguing with someone who said that?

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06-02-2011, 07:21 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The funny part is you mention that RNH is going to eat lots of big checks from 6'3 230lbs NHL defensman, when RNH very rarely if ever leaves himself exposed to big checks anywhere on the ice, yet Taylor Hall almost weekly was nailed in open ice skating with his head down.

How many big checks does Datsyuk take?

I think the whole point is Taylor Hall's body is more physically developed, he may not be Zack Kassian, but his advanced physique compared to RNH allowed him to be more physical.

RNH plays a completely different game...and if you can project that game where he is underdeveloped physically to where he will be when he is more physically developed - he could probably be dominating - like a Patrick Kane.

Right now RNH looks like a 13year old kid, man strength will come....how soon no one knows, but he isnt going to be a 170lb NHLer in his prime for sure.

My guess, he weighs in at the combine this weekend at around 6'0.5 and about 175-178lbs, which isn't too bad as a 17 year old. It's about the same weight Patrick Kane plays at right now, and he's been find for 4 years so far.

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06-02-2011, 07:25 PM
  #112
BluechipBulletin
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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
The funny part is you mention that RNH is going to eat lots of big checks from 6'3 230lbs NHL defensman, when RNH very rarely if ever leaves himself exposed to big checks anywhere on the ice,
...against junior players. The NHL is bigger, faster and D are a lot better and aren't fooled by moves like RNH has when made at the speed at which RNH is capable of making them.

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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
yet Taylor Hall almost weekly was nailed in open ice skating with his head down.
Taylor Hall himself would tell you that he's not a very bright guy. He tweeted as much last month.

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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
How many big checks does Datsyuk take?
RNH isn't Datsyuk.

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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
I think the whole point is Taylor Hall's body is more physically developed, he may not be Zack Kassian, but his advanced physique compared to RNH allowed him to be more physical.
...but he wasn't.

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Originally Posted by arsmaster View Post
RNH plays a completely different game...and if you can project that game where he is underdeveloped physically to where he will be when he is more physically developed - he could probably be dominating - like a Patrick Kane.
Kane is a far better skater than RNH, and has never had problems producing in traffic like RNH does.

You seriously need to lower your expectations considerably.

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06-02-2011, 07:34 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
Oh, I don't care if you prefer RNH to Seguin. I think Seguin was underappreciated last year (not that he didn't have his flaws), and the mischaracterizations of his attributes were both humorous and aggravating.

The fact that Hall is probably a better pure goal-scorer while Seguin is a better playmaker was particularly strange when you consider that Seguin had more goals and Hall had more assists.



More difficult for a 6'1" guy to move like a 5'6" guy with the same weight? Yes.
RNH was just as agile and shifty with the puck as Grimaldi? Not even close.

Grimaldi is much faster than RNH and makes moves at full speed that RNH can't do when he's gliding.

As someone else pointed out, and I forgot to add it before, RNH isn't capable of making plays at top speed. That's a really bad sign. So in the event that he does develop above-average speed with which to make the room that he needs to have in order to be effective offensively, he doesn't have the ability to be productive at full speed anyway.
Again, of course Grimaldi is much faster than RNH, and I'm a pretty big back of Grimaldi. As far as the rest, well there are plenty playmakers that rarely make plays at full speed, and it's not usually because they can't do it.

How many plays do Datsyuk, Sedin, Thornton, Backstrom, etc. make at full speed vs. through puck possession? They all are deadly players in the offensive zone, in the cycle, and with the puck on their stick, which is where RNH excels. Those guys don't need to create plays at top speed of the rush, and they don't that often.

Sure, they do make plays off the rush, but it's not because of high-end speed. And yes, I'm sure you'll say "RNH isn't any of those guys", but it's about projecting him as an NHLer at 25 years old, not next year.

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06-02-2011, 07:41 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
Zelda?



The Oilers made the wrong choice because they picked the inferior player at a position of strength rather than the superior player at a position of weakness. And I've never claimed that my opinion is always right, but it is in this case.
You seem so confident, it's a wonder that your not already employed by an NHL team as their amateur scout.

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06-02-2011, 07:42 PM
  #115
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
...against junior players. The NHL is bigger, faster and D are a lot better and aren't fooled by moves like RNH has when made at the speed at which RNH is capable of making them.



Taylor Hall himself would tell you that he's not a very bright guy. He tweeted as much last month.



RNH isn't Datsyuk.



...but he wasn't.



Kane is a far better skater than RNH, and has never had problems producing in traffic like RNH does.

You seriously need to lower your expectations considerably.
did RNH **** your mom or something? cause i dont understand why you continue to argue after being proven wrong over and over again.

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06-02-2011, 07:45 PM
  #116
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2 things

Even strength numbers
Went a freaking month without a goal... in the chl.

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06-02-2011, 07:45 PM
  #117
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SCouting is so much better than it was 10 years ago. I highly doubt that a guy picked first overall won't become at least a very good nhler in this day and age

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06-02-2011, 07:46 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by BluechipBulletin View Post
Oh, I don't care if you prefer RNH to Seguin. I think Seguin was underappreciated last year (not that he didn't have his flaws), and the mischaracterizations of his attributes were both humorous and aggravating.

The fact that Hall is probably a better pure goal-scorer while Seguin is a better playmaker was particularly strange when you consider that Seguin had more goals and Hall had more assists.
I'd say Hall is the better goal scorer and Seguin is the better playmaker. The stats say otherwise but you really just need to look at their situations. Hall had more talented players around him. He had more options and the Spirtfires worked better as a unit. They moved the puck better which lead to more players being able to score goals....which lead to more assists for Hall. This was more the case on the powerplay than at even strength. Seguin was in a completely different situation. His vision is better than Hall's but he didn't have the players to finish off plays. On a lot of nights if Seguin wasn't scoring the goals, no one was. Seguin also got A LOT more ice time so he had more cracks at scoring goals. I'm 99% sure this stat isn't available but I bet Hall's goals per minute average was a lot higher than Seguin's.

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06-02-2011, 07:48 PM
  #119
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Also, as far as the earlier post, here's my evidence:



Since I'm bored, I'll even bookmark them for you. If you can watch this video and all the spots I noted and still maintain his release is "very slow", he isn't agile, quick, etc., or that he doesn't go into dirty areas or doesn't play with grit then I think we can agree to disagree and move on.

0:04 - Quick release, slapshot roof.
0:12 - hard backcheck, finishes hit hard, plays with an edge.
0:18-0:24 - good agility, finishes with a goal.
0:25 - quick release, results = goal.
0:32 - another quick release, another goal.
0:38 - Hmm, another roofjob on a quick release...seems to be a theme here?
0:43 - If that isn't elite level agility, I don't know what is...
1:10 - quick shot, goal.
1:18-1:22 - 2 quick shots and 2 goals.
1:26 - BOOM!...getting tired of doing this at this point

Since I've gotten tired of this, the last 3 mins is the same as the first 1:26...a great release, quick shot, agility, grit, finishes tons of checks, and goes into the dirty areas.

RNH flat out does not use his shot enough.

If you can find any evidence otherwise, I'll watch it. Of course, it will be tough to find highlights of poor plays, but since I've seen him live every time he's been in Edmonton for the last 2 years, and 15+ times total, I've never seen what you claim are faults.

No elite top-end speed? Sure. Lots of PP points? Yes. Skinny? yes. Not buying any of the rest though.


Last edited by SDig14: 06-02-2011 at 07:55 PM.
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06-02-2011, 07:53 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by C For Choke View Post
Maybe his goal scoring? A lot of playmakers scored at a high rate in junior. Adam Oates was averaging maybe a 0.70 GPG before the NHL. Joe Thornton's was pretty high too. Peter Forsberg was leading his SEL team in goal scoring each year. Neither of those guys were prolific goal scorers in the NHL. Hopkins, meanwhile, just barely went over 30.
While this is true, there are so many factors at the NHL to consider vs. junior.

For example, RNH went a month without scoring a goal, and still put up as many goals as Matt Duchene, and nearly 30 more points.

I don't think anyone will say that Duchene can't be an elite player in the NHL because his junior max was 30ish goals and less than 80 points.

It's more about projecting these kids at a much older age. Hockey sense, skating, puck skills, passion, drive, character, etc...anything transferable to the NHL, much more than just junior numbers IMO.

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06-02-2011, 07:55 PM
  #121
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RNH skating might not be the fastest in the draft, but his agility is on Duchene's level and Bluechip are you going to call Duchene a bad skater?

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06-02-2011, 07:57 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by oilWILDcountry View Post
I don't know why you guys are arguing with someone who said that?
He's clearly someone who goes against the grain on purpose. I'm all for difference of opinion, but when someone says the Oilers made the wrong choice without a doubt last draft, I just shake my head.

Not to mention how he believes RNH isn't very agile, doesn't have a quick release and can't make plays at top speed (wtf?). Probably looking to rile up a few Oiler fans and then pass it off as his "opinion".

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06-02-2011, 08:06 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by S E P H View Post
RNH skating might not be the fastest in the draft, but his agility is on Duchene's level and Bluechip are you going to call Duchene a bad skater?
Be careful what you wish for...

I think they have comparable agility, elusiveness, and quickness. Duchene just gets the edge for top end speed though. Both guys think the game so well that I think Duchene would be successful even without the extra gear.

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06-02-2011, 08:08 PM
  #124
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For me, I defend RNH more as a huge RNH fan than an Oiler fan. Sure, the fact the Oilers could very well draft him magnifies it, but I've been a huge fan of him since I saw him live for the first time 2 years ago, and I will back him hard even if we don't draft him, meanwhile praying the guy we take is still better

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06-02-2011, 08:16 PM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SDig14 View Post
Be careful what you wish for...

I think they have comparable agility, elusiveness, and quickness. Duchene just gets the edge for top end speed though. Both guys think the game so well that I think Duchene would be successful even without the extra gear.


I agree with everything you said. Duchene is the better scorer while RNH has much better vision and playmaking ability. Playing styles I have to say Duchene plays just like Crosby. Obviously the skill level is no match, but it's crazy how similar they play. RNH on the other hand has Sakic's vision and Datsyuk's slippy-ness. I was a big believe that RNH reminded me of Duchene, but I'm liking the Datsyuk comparison much more.

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