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Ranking: Best Hawks ever #6

View Poll Results: Best Hawks ever #6
Charlie Gardiner 2 7.14%
Ed Belfour 1 3.57%
Tony Esposito 12 42.86%
Chris Chelios 6 21.43%
Ed Litzenberger 0 0%
Doug Wilson 2 7.14%
Keith Magnusson 0 0%
Doug Bentley 0 0%
Max Bentley 0 0%
Pit Martin 0 0%
Jeremy Roenick 2 7.14%
Bill Mosienko 0 0%
Earl Seibert 0 0%
Steve Larmer 1 3.57%
Tony Amonte 2 7.14%
Voters: 28. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-27-2011, 11:15 AM
  #1
Bubba88
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Ranking: Best Hawks ever #6

please tell me who I should add next

3 Days to vote

#1 Bobby Hull (64.10% of all votes)
#2 Stan Mikita (82.76%)
#3 Denis Savard (~45%)
#4 Glenn Hall (76.47%)
#5 Pierre Pilote (44.00%)
#6

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Old
05-28-2011, 06:10 AM
  #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
please tell me who I should add next

3 Days to vote

#1 Bobby Hull (64.10% of all votes)
#2 Stan Mikita (82.76%)
#3 Denis Savard (~45%)
#4 Glenn Hall (76.47%)
#5 Pierre Pilote (44.00%)
#6
Are you serious? Tony Esposito! In fact he's between Stan and Denis on my list! He IS the reason a youngster in western Pa started following hockey 40+ years ago. He's my all time favorite hockey player, ever.

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05-28-2011, 06:38 AM
  #3
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Originally Posted by RFIP View Post
Are you serious? Tony Esposito! In fact he's between Stan and Denis on my list! He IS the reason a youngster in western Pa started following hockey 40+ years ago. He's my all time favorite hockey player, ever.
Love Tony O, but there's no way he's better than Hall. He probably is better than Savard, though, and Savard is out of place on this list.

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05-28-2011, 06:50 AM
  #4
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I think here it comes down to Max Bentley vs Chris Chelios. Both didn't play their whole careers with Chicago (traded), but did play a large portion of their prime with the Hawks.

For some reason I can't get any stats on the Hockey Reference site right now. I'm pretty sure that both players won major awards while on the Hawks (Art Ross or two for Bentley, Norris or two for Chelios). Both were dominant players at their positions while on the Hawks. Did Bentley play on a Hawks cup team?

Perhaps Pappyline can help us out here.

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Old
05-28-2011, 07:26 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFIP View Post
Are you serious? Tony Esposito! In fact he's between Stan and Denis on my list! He IS the reason a youngster in western Pa started following hockey 40+ years ago. He's my all time favorite hockey player, ever.
this list as of now was a voting I make here. I wouldn't pick Savy as #3 too

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Old
05-28-2011, 11:56 AM
  #6
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Chelios again, by quite a margin. Savard at #3 makes this list a waste of time already though.

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Old
05-28-2011, 12:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvr View Post
I think here it comes down to Max Bentley vs Chris Chelios. Both didn't play their whole careers with Chicago (traded), but did play a large portion of their prime with the Hawks.

For some reason I can't get any stats on the Hockey Reference site right now. I'm pretty sure that both players won major awards while on the Hawks (Art Ross or two for Bentley, Norris or two for Chelios). Both were dominant players at their positions while on the Hawks. Did Bentley play on a Hawks cup team?

Perhaps Pappyline can help us out here.
Chelios won a couple of Norris trophies while with the Hawks and had several AS selections. Great player and not a bad choice for #6. I wouldn't vote for him though as I think he was a jerk.

Max won two AR's & a Hart while a Blackhawk. All his Stanley cups came with the Leafs. Max would be a good choice IMO. I saw a short video of him from the 51 AS game & he looked incredible. Very fast, very aggressive and fantastic puck handling. Similar style to Savard but Max was better IMO.

Doug Bentley should be getting some support here. Career Blackhawk who won an AR & was several times an AS.

Looks like Espo will win this one. Not a bad choice but that bad goal in game 7 of the 71 final still gives me nightmares.

I gonna hold my vote unless I see it could make a difference.

Seeing Savard ahead of Hall & Pilote still bothers me.

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Old
05-28-2011, 02:11 PM
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I don't like Savy as #3 too, but you can make a case for him and enough voted for him.


I just hope everybody here votes

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05-28-2011, 03:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
Chelios again, by quite a margin. Savard at #3 makes this list a waste of time already though.
If you think it's Chelios "by quite a margin", then you haven't really examined the career contributions from some of the previous generation Hawk players. Compared to Max Bentley and Tony Esposito, it's quite close.


I agree about Savard not belonging anywhere near number 3 on this list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Chelios won a couple of Norris trophies while with the Hawks and had several AS selections. Great player and not a bad choice for #6. I wouldn't vote for him though as I think he was a jerk.

Max won two AR's & a Hart while a Blackhawk. All his Stanley cups came with the Leafs. Max would be a good choice IMO. I saw a short video of him from the 51 AS game & he looked incredible. Very fast, very aggressive and fantastic puck handling. Similar style to Savard but Max was better IMO.

Doug Bentley should be getting some support here. Career Blackhawk who won an AR & was several times an AS.

Looks like Espo will win this one. Not a bad choice but that bad goal in game 7 of the 71 final still gives me nightmares.

I gonna hold my vote unless I see it could make a difference.

Seeing Savard ahead of Hall & Pilote still bothers me.
Thanks for the insight about M. Bentley. Would it be safe to say Max was better while both were on the Hawks, but that Doug had the longer Hawks career?

Savard at #3 just highlights the relative youth of the forum, as well as the lack of due diligence people are putting into the vote. This is not supposed to be a popularity contest. Rather, we're supposed to vet out each player and vote for the best choice for the next slot.

The way Chelios exited the Hawks probably should knock him down a peg or two in a ranking of "Best Hawks Ever".

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Old
05-28-2011, 04:10 PM
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Cheli again.

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05-28-2011, 06:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvr View Post
I

Thanks for the insight about M. Bentley. Would it be safe to say Max was better while both were on the Hawks, but that Doug had the longer Hawks career?

Savard at #3 just highlights the relative youth of the forum, as well as the lack of due diligence people are putting into the vote. This is not supposed to be a popularity contest. Rather, we're supposed to vet out each player and vote for the best choice for the next slot.

The way Chelios exited the Hawks probably should knock him down a peg or two in a ranking of "Best Hawks Ever".
Max & Doug were before my time. I have seen arguments that doug was better.It has been said that Doug was a better back checker. Personally, I think they were very close with Max being better at their peak. doug certainly played longer as a Hawk and was always a very effective player. He was voted the top Blackhawk of the first half of the twentieth century.

You are right about Savard at #3 highlighting the relative youth of the forum and the lack of due diligence. It will probably get worse as we go along.

I certainly appreciate players before my time such as the Bentleys, Gardiner & Seibert who should all be getting votes at this point. In my lifetime, litzenberger was my favorite player and I will certainly be voting for him before some of the more modern players.

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05-29-2011, 07:35 AM
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1. Wilson has done more for the Hawks than Cheli has done. Wilson is 5th in points all time and and was better in the POs.

2. Savy is the 3rd best Hawk Forward all time, he may not be better than Hall or Pilote or Wilson, but Savy has the 3rd most Points in Hawks History and is 2nd in PO Points.


3. after some posts, I think I have to add Toews and/or Kane next. They have done a thing many others haven't done. Both are Top 20 in PO Points and 1 scored the Cup Winner, the other was the captain and Conn Smyhte winner that brought us our Cup.

I think you will agree that right now, they don't belong on this list

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05-29-2011, 01:17 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pvr View Post
If you think it's Chelios "by quite a margin", then you haven't really examined the career contributions from some of the previous generation Hawk players. Compared to Max Bentley and Tony Esposito, it's quite close.


I agree about Savard not belonging anywhere near number 3 on this list.



Thanks for the insight about M. Bentley. Would it be safe to say Max was better while both were on the Hawks, but that Doug had the longer Hawks career?

Savard at #3 just highlights the relative youth of the forum, as well as the lack of due diligence people are putting into the vote. This is not supposed to be a popularity contest. Rather, we're supposed to vet out each player and vote for the best choice for the next slot.

The way Chelios exited the Hawks probably should knock him down a peg or two in a ranking of "Best Hawks Ever".
I know of the accomplishments. It's damn near impossible to compare them to current day players, especially when Chelios dominated against a much larger, more rounded, better trained player grouping.

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05-29-2011, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Bubba88 View Post
1. Wilson has done more for the Hawks than Cheli has done. Wilson is 5th in points all time and and was better in the POs.

2. Savy is the 3rd best Hawk Forward all time, he may not be better than Hall or Pilote or Wilson, but Savy has the 3rd most Points in Hawks History and is 2nd in PO Points. ...
The Wilson vs Chelios argument has more merit to it than a Savard vs. Hall. Hall had way more value to the Hawks than any of the others (Savard, Chelios, Esposito, etc...) mentioned, and is on a shorter list of all time great goalies than where Chelios (who only spent at most the middle third of his career as a Hawk) et al sit on their respective positional lists.

Glenn Hall is easily in the top 30-40 players in the history of hockey, whereas Denis Savard perhaps could crack the top 100 on a few lists if a very strong and coherent argument is made. Both played the vast majority of their careers with the Hawks. The choice should be evident who was the "all time" better Hawk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DisgruntledHawkFan View Post
I know of the accomplishments. It's damn near impossible to compare them to current day players, especially when Chelios dominated against a much larger, more rounded, better trained player grouping.
The argument that today's athletes are better than previous generations is common. I don't agree with this simplistic dismissal. By this logic, Dwight Howard would rank higher on the all time center list than Bill Russell, or Yzerman would be better than Beliveau. Neither is true.

If one attempts to make the list of all time great Hawks players, then it becomes a responsibility to try to compare players' accomplishments vis a vis their peers first, to put their perfomance into perspective. Next you compare these accomplishments accross the generations to get a fair historical ranking between players. It isn't supposed to be easy.

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05-29-2011, 03:17 PM
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Max & Doug were before my time. I have seen arguments that doug was better.It has been said that Doug was a better back checker. Personally, I think they were very close with Max being better at their peak. doug certainly played longer as a Hawk and was always a very effective player. He was voted the top Blackhawk of the first half of the twentieth century.

You are right about Savard at #3 highlighting the relative youth of the forum and the lack of due diligence. It will probably get worse as we go along.

I certainly appreciate players before my time such as the Bentleys, Gardiner & Seibert who should all be getting votes at this point. In my lifetime, litzenberger was my favorite player and I will certainly be voting for him before some of the more modern players.
Didn't know that. It might be that Doug deserves a ranking higher than Max on a "Best Hawks Ever" list.

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05-29-2011, 06:48 PM
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The argument that today's athletes are better than previous generations is common. I don't agree with this simplistic dismissal. By this logic, Dwight Howard would rank higher on the all time center list than Bill Russell, or Yzerman would be better than Beliveau. Neither is true.

If one attempts to make the list of all time great Hawks players, then it becomes a responsibility to try to compare players' accomplishments vis a vis their peers first, to put their perfomance into perspective. Next you compare these accomplishments accross the generations to get a fair historical ranking between players. It isn't supposed to be easy.
Right on PVR. Those who think that the players today are so much better-why do they even participate in these polls?

You have to look at them vis a vis their peers keeping in mind that if they played today they would have all the equipment & training advantages that todays players have. If Max bentley was born in 1980 instead of 1920, he would have the same innate skills plus he would have been bigger faster & stronger.

As far as the claim that players like Savard & Chelios were more dominant. This is crap. Both were great but hardly dominant. Chelios was not even dominant at his position. Bourque was the dominate Dman of that era. Even if you take Gretzky out of the picture, Savard would not have won a single AR. his best finish was 3rd.

Max & Doug Bentley were up there with the best of their era.

Max:
7 X top 10 in goals; 3 X top 5
5X top 10 in assists: 4X top 5
5X top 5 in points: 2X #1

Doug:
3X top 10 in goals; 2X #1
7X top 10 in assists: 5X top 5: 2X #1
6X top 10 in points: 4X top 5; 1X #1

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05-30-2011, 09:50 AM
  #17
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I guess if this becomes a "choose your favorite Hawks player here" kind of list, without intelligent discourse before choices are made, I'm going to recuse myself from voting. Seriously, we have more votes here for Tony Amonte and Steve Larmer than HOF Black Hawks (and yes, I did separate "Blackhawks" into two words purposely).

Siebert, Gardiner, M. Bently, D. Bently, and Mosienko are all in the Hockey Hall of Fame, mostly, if not all, for what they did in a Black Hawks uniform.


Last edited by pvr: 05-30-2011 at 09:57 AM.
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Old
05-30-2011, 11:17 AM
  #18
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I figured things would get interesting after a while but I canít believe how many fans, even Hawk fans, underestimate Doug Wilson. If he wasnít as good as Pilote, the difference was marginal.

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05-30-2011, 11:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pappyline View Post
Chelios won a couple of Norris trophies while with the Hawks and had several AS selections. Great player and not a bad choice for #6. I wouldn't vote for him though as I think he was a jerk.

Max won two AR's & a Hart while a Blackhawk. All his Stanley cups came with the Leafs. Max would be a good choice IMO. I saw a short video of him from the 51 AS game & he looked incredible. Very fast, very aggressive and fantastic puck handling. Similar style to Savard but Max was better IMO.

Doug Bentley should be getting some support here. Career Blackhawk who won an AR & was several times an AS.

Looks like Espo will win this one. Not a bad choice but that bad goal in game 7 of the 71 final still gives me nightmares.

I gonna hold my vote unless I see it could make a difference.

Seeing Savard ahead of Hall & Pilote still bothers me.
Good post... agree with all of it ..... though I didn't see Bentley play. It was before my time, but he is highly regarded by hockey historians.

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Old
05-30-2011, 02:39 PM
  #20
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My intention is not to advocate for a family member; however, I think adding a once dedicated Black Hawks player to this list is warranted.

Johnnie Gottselig played his entire NHL career for the Hawks from the late 20s to the mid-40s, with a stop as player/coach for the Kansas City Americans in the early 40s (developing both Bentley's and Mosienko). He was instrumental in the cup wins of '34 and '38 ('38 being the god-awful team that would ultimately shock the NHL), was soon involved in coaching/managing the team after the 1 game he played in 1944-45 season, and would later be involved in the late 50s/early 60s as a Hawks PR director and radio analyst.

It can be argued that he was a productive player during his career, where he more often than not was relied upon for his wicked stickhandling, penalty-killing prowess, and leadership.

I can't say I would argue with the best Blackhawks of all-time list that is currently being generated by the members here. I just feel if other deserving players of that era (Bentley's, Mosienko, Gardiner, etc) are mentioned in this all-time list, so too should Johnnie Gottselig.

Just my .02 cents.

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05-31-2011, 01:22 AM
  #21
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he is the next player I want to add


had him in mind already

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