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Right, but with Tedenby it isn't entirely potential. He's already played his rookie year in the NHL, and he looked good when Lemaire took the leash off. Rundblad has high potential, but he hasn't begun to convert it into proven results yet. Tedenby has.
Results=stats. Tedenby has yet to prove to get good stats in the nhl therefore he has yet to convert his skill into good proven nhl results as you previously stated. I don't know what you're talking about...
In all fairness Tedenby has proven that he can play in the NHL, even if he only had 26 points. Of course the distinction is whether or not he is a proven top six young player yet. Right now I would have to say no based on those totals, but he should be done adapting, get more playing time and be there next year. There is no reason to say he isn't NHL calibre with all the scrubs running around with one way deals.
Right, but with Tedenby it isn't entirely potential. He's already played his rookie year in the NHL, and he looked good when Lemaire took the leash off. Rundblad has high potential, but he hasn't begun to convert it into proven results yet. Tedenby has.
OK, but looking good is much less of a proven result than real production.
Obviously Tedenby has more shown in the NHL than Rundblad because DR has never played in the NHL, but I don't think he's "proven proven" and I don't think he's proven enough to vault him over Rundblad in value. Just IMO, of course. I mean, is he also more valuable than Ryan Johansen because RyJo hasn't played for Columbus yet?
OK, but looking good is much less of a proven result than real production.
Obviously Tedenby has more shown in the NHL than Rundblad because DR has never played in the NHL, but I don't think he's "proven proven" and I don't think he's proven enough to vault him over Rundblad in value. Just IMO, of course. I mean, is he also more valuable than Ryan Johansen because RyJo hasn't played for Columbus yet?
i don't necessarily think tednedby is more valuable the Rundblad, but in the proposal that got this conversation started, the devils are moving back two spots, so we are sacrificing the better pick, to attain a better prospect, and fill an organizational need. So as far as value in concerned, if that deal went down, we would all agree Rundblad>Tednedby.... we just do not want to give up any more in the deal.
Again, stat-watching does not tell the whole story. Lemaire deliberately restricted Tedenby's minutes this year in order to teach him to be better defensively. Both Tedenby and the Devils will benefit from that in the long run. I don't think there's any question that he will make the team again next season, and continue to improve. At the very least, he has proved that he belongs in the NHL. Many people wrote him off because of his size, but he is proving them wrong.
Watch the kid play, or hell, even just watch his goal highlight reel, and then tell me won't be something special.
Again, stat-watching does not tell the whole story.
Of course not, but when you say "proven" you can only base it on results. Results are basically stats. Someone can look flashy, but not be effective. Being effective means producing. The stat line will show if you're producing or not.
While stats are not the only way to judge a players worth, they definitely play the biggest role. What do you think arbitrators look at when determining the players worth? Usually it's stat line relevant to other similar players who signed recently. They don't look at if the player is very fast skater...or has good dangles. Stats mean A LOT.
It's because Lemaire restricted his ice time. When you play 6 minutes a game with the fourth liners, there isn't much opportunity to rack up the stats. It's actually impressive he scored so much. And he'll be much more productive next season.
It doesn't matter, we've already established that neither team would make that trade.
I will be truelly shocked if the Devils don't keep this pick.
And I will equally shocked if their pick isn't one of RNH, Couturier, Ladeskog or Larsson. I expect those 4 to be gone by the 5th pick.
The people who believe the Devils will draft a defensemen because of their current situation really have no idea what the Devils are about....They will pick the player they believe is the best available regardless of position.
I've read Dave Conte is pretty excited about this pick.
Right... cause if we pick a d-men, he'll make our blueline a instant cup contender
You might think the draft is based on filling needs and going for the best talent atm but the Devils don't work that way. If you have a chance to land a stud player at a position you are loaded at, you pick the prospect and figure out the rest afterwards, period.
The draft isn't made to re-tool at a position of weakness, it's their IMO to upgrade your prospect pool no matter the position. Trades and UFA signings are there to re-balance your team, not the draft.
If Huberdeau is on the board and Lou/Conte are high on the kid, knowing he'll play wing when we already have Parise and Kovalchuk... I'd be willing to bet the farm that he'd pick Huberdeau regardless of the depth we have at that position. Worst case scenario, we move Parise (for example) for a #1 puck moving d-men and have Huberdeau play 2nd line duty's behind Kovalchuk.
You can't go wrong when picking the BPA
No, he's not guaranteed to make you a contender. But if your defense is talentless and 1-dimensional, I guarantee that you won't be.
Scouting and drafting is an imperfect, biased and subjective analysis. It's nowhere near a perfect science, as shown by any draft year. Players amongst the 210 that will be drafted will blur together into tiers of talent. Within those tiers, teams will draft for need. If a team feels it is at the end of a tier, it will surely draft BPA --> because BPA is extremely clear at that point. BPA is not clear within a tier whatsoever and your protests here are completely hollow. The media released lists are provided without context and should not be taken as gospel, especially since we know for a fact that team lists differ greatly from these lists. The few scouts, GM's, etc talking about this draft say they see a tier of about 8 players at the top with a very loosely defined hierarchy. RNH and Larsson seem like virtual guarantees within the first 2-3 picks. Strome seems likely to go later in the tier. Everything in the middle of that will be a complete guess at this point. If NJ sees a drop-off at 4, they'll take BPA. If they see a drop-off after 8, then there is no clearly identifiable BPA... they'll draft for need. Logical reasoning for the win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402
Sens : Tedenby, 4th overall
NJ : Rundblad, 6th overall
I'm not honestly going to say this will ever happen or that Rundblad or Tedenby should be traded.
Tedenby hasn't produced anything at any level since he played in the Swedish junior league 4 years ago. Many similar prospects have been much more successful at the same ages in the same leagues as he was. You were lambasted for good reason. At this point, there's no reason to think he'll become a 1st liner in the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timzey
am i missing something? has Rundblad proven anything in the NHL? Tednedby has, and the devils are providing the higher pick. if anything I think ottawa adds.
Tedenby has played NHL games. Lots of 1st rounders do because they're given every opportunity to stick in the league and justify the team's investment in them. If they don't, they wind up on waivers, play for a bottom feeder and then wind up in a 2nd tier league. He hasn't proven anything whatsoever.
In terms of what he has proven; well, that depends on your hypothesis. If the hypothesis is that he's ever going to be a 1st line player in the NHL... his disappointing production at all levels (SEL, AHL & NHL) should be throwing quite a bit of doubt into any such conclusion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timzey
8 goals playing extremely limited minutes, while showing flashes of brilliance... when you consider a player of his size always carries question marks about taking their games to next level. tednedby showed this year, that his size will not be an issue..
Ivan Novoseltsev showed flashes of brilliance. Small, 1-way players who don't score will always have question marks. They also tend to have their minutes limited as well because they're liabilities on the ice, which isn't a feather in anybody's cap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apice3
Our terrible defense corps was ranked 8th in GAA this year.
I will agree that this proposal isn't one that Ottawa would consider accepting, but our defense really isn't as bad as a lot make it out to be. We lack a true #1 D-man and a PMD, but that's really it. As a whole, the defense isn't that bad. That being said, our prospect pool is one of the best we've had in many years, as Lou Lamoriello said himself. I'm sorry, but his opinion has more weight than yours
GAA is affected by system and goaltending.
Your team used to contend with Stevens, Niedermayer and Rafalski. Do you remember those days? Or are you satisfied with minor leaguers and depth defensemen dictating the pace of play?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saugus
If Tedenby is traded, it will be for a proven #1 defenceman, not a prospect defenceman. I like Rundblad, but I would not trade Tedenby for him.
And no, NJ would not need to add, I think.
Watch him play rather than reading his stat line. The kid is going to be a star in this league. 25-30 goals a year in his prime.
You should keep him or trade him for Duncan Keith then.
I would personally just rather wait it out and see whether he does anything, ever at any professional level of hockey to justify the Ottawa fan's offer for him... or more likely wait a couple of years until he hits waivers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blues22
and trentmcclearly doesnt know his ass from a hockey stick
The Isles have Hamonic, Macdonald, and Streit, And DeHaan on the Way, and Ken Morrow thinks Matt Donovan will be starting for us by years end
Streit is signed for 2 years and is 33 yo. DeHaan just turned 20 yo and has never played a pro game. I doubt they will ever play effectively at the same time for the Isles.
Hamonic and MacDonald played a lot of minutes for a bad team dealing with a lot of injuries. They'll get a lot of relative praise for the moral victories they earn playing in a tough spot as youngsters... but the Isles have done this for years and those D-men move to bottom pairing roles and minor league teams. When Hamonic and MacDonald are playing top 4 roles for a team in a playoff spot, let me know.
Matt Donovan? ... Are you kidding me?
Look, I was trying to be as diplomatic as possible without having to fight over everybody's god damn future superstar 4th and 5th round picks. Do you understand that the Isles have already spent 5 of their last 6 1st rounder on forwards and that since they don't sign free agents, this is the primary way they invest their assets? Or more specifically, they've already invested heavily in forwards and do not need any more. They need to build other areas of the team, unless Garth is trying to fill all 12 forward spots with 1st round picks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by blues22
perhaps if you werent so clueless youd remember Garth traded out of Luke Schenn (edit: for Josh Bailey), since he felt one dimensional defensemen arent value in the top of the draft, and then Snow started Fowler's descent by taking Nino
Snow did have nice things to say about Ryan Murphys talent but said he'd be an option if we traded down
get a clue trent
So you're saying Garth will constantly make the same mistakes and never learn from them?
Would've been horrible to have have a pairing of Schenn-Fowler this year instead of owning Bailey and Neiderreiter, eh?
his disappointing production at all levels (SEL, AHL & NHL)
Possibly one of the dumbest statements Ive seen on HF.
His last season in the SEL was a major success. He was around fourth on his team in goals per game as one of the younger players on a Pro team. He was 19 his last season in the SEL on a team that had 10 players over 29 years old.
His AHL production was a disappointment??? He played 12 games and had 5 points before he got called up. Your statement continues to get dumber.
Here is a kid that just stepped on to North American soil in the summer of 2010 for the first time, barely 20 years old, barely can speak English and by October he is playing in the NHL and putting up 22 points in 58 games as a 20 year old getting 3rd and 4th line minutes ...sound pretty impressive to me.
Possibly one of the dumbest statements Ive seen on HF.
His last season in the SEL was a major success. He was around fourth on his team in goals per game as one of the younger players on a Pro team. He was 19 his last season in the SEL on a team that had 10 players over 29 years old.
His AHL production was a disappointment??? He played 12 games and had 5 points before he got called up. Your statement continues to get dumber.
Here is a kid that just stepped on to North American soil in the summer of 2010 for the first time, barely 20 years old, barely can speak English and by October he is playing in the NHL and putting up 22 points in 58 games as a 20 year old getting 3rd and 4th line minutes ...sound pretty impressive to me.
Thank you.
Below you will find a table 1st round picks from the SEL. Beside each of them is a single digit number refering to the season from which their draft year so that you can compare to Tedenby.
Spoiler alert: he gets destroyed offensively by anybody who ever made something of themselves in the NHL, as well as a bunch of defensemen. He does outscore future 4th liners though.
Tedenby (D-08):
1 SEL 08-09 = 32-3-1-4, 0.13
2 SEL 09-10 = 44-12-7-19, 0.43
3 AHL 10-11 = 12-3-2-5, 0.42
3 NHL 10-11 = 58-8-14-22, 0.38
D-Man Rundblad (D-09)
1 SEL 09-10 = 47-1-12-13, 0.28
2 SEL 10-11 = 55-11-39-50, 0.91
Tedenby hasn't produced anything at any level since he played in the Swedish junior league 4 years ago. Many similar prospects have been much more successful at the same ages in the same leagues as he was. You were lambasted for good reason. At this point, there's no reason to think he'll become a 1st liner in the NHL.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't strike me as a Devils fan. I'm aware of the homerism surrounding Rundblad with the majority of Sens fans which is why I wanted a fresh opinion.
There's no reason to think Rundblad will become a top pairing defenseman at this point either unless his defence drastically changes. Right now he is alot worse than Karlsson was beginning last year. Players need time to adjust to the different NA ice surface. You can't just plug SEL numbers into a box and expect the same to come out on a different style of hockey.
You comparing points per game against a guy who is primarily a goal scorer. Look the goals per game. He compares extremely well to any of those players. As a matter of fact just a quick glance tells me of all the players you listed only D. Sedin had more goals per game....very "disappointing " production
He has scored at the same rate at the same age as that 4th liner Kopitar very disappointing for the both of them
You comparing points per game against a guy who is primarily a goal scorer. Look the goals per game. He compares extremely well to any of those players. As a matter of fact just a quick glance tells me of all the players you listed only D. Sedin had more goals per game....very "disappointing " production
He has scored at the same rate at the same age as that 4th liner Kopitar very disappointing for the both of them
Just to cut in, without bringing in stats or trying to determine the future of Tedenby, what I have seen is a player who is very, very highly skilled, and more of a flashy, shifty, dangler, than most. I don't think that Rundblad is worth that type of player.
Don't take this the wrong way, but you don't strike me as a Devils fan. I'm aware of the homerism surrounding Rundblad with the majority of Sens fans which is why I wanted a fresh opinion.
There's no reason to think Rundblad will become a top pairing defenseman at this point either unless his defence drastically changes. Right now he is alot worse than Karlsson was beginning last year. Players need time to adjust to the different NA ice surface. You can't just plug SEL numbers into a box and expect the same to come out on a different style of hockey.
You should expect two things when projecting numbers up to the NHL, they might stay the same or they'll go down. Guys who aren't big scorers through the ranks aren't going to all of a sudden turn into big scorers in the NHL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
You comparing points per game against a guy who is primarily a goal scorer. Look the goals per game. He compares extremely well to any of those players. As a matter of fact just a quick glance tells me of all the players you listed only D. Sedin had more goals per game....very "disappointing " production
He has scored at the same rate at the same age as that 4th liner Kopitar very disappointing for the both of them
Actually, he still gets beaten by virtually all of them within the correlating seasons... usually pretty badly. Note what the number on the left side of each player means.
Actually, he still gets beaten by virtually all of them within the correlating seasons... usually pretty badly. Note what the number on the left side of each player means.
That is so ridiculous. Tedenby's 1st season in the SEL he was 16 turning 17 year old and the correlating season in some case is that of 18 and 19 year olds....Stop it already. These statements continue get dumber and dumber.
And your numbers are simply wrong...Because in Rundbalds case you conveniently left out his first two years in the SEL where he scored a whopping 10 points over 51 games to begin with some production, when the reality is he did nothing as 17 year old just like Tedenby or any other 17/18 year old in the SEL save for special players....
2007-08 Skelleftea HC SEL 6 0 0 0 2 0
2008-09 Skelleftea HC SEL 45 0 10 10 8 3 10 1 1 2 2
2009-10 Skelleftea HC SEL 47 1 12 13 14 4 12 0 1 1 2
2010-11 Skelleftea HC SEL 55 11 39 50 14 5 18 3 7 10 20
I don't have the time to fact check your nonsense, but with a quick glance I can see you are playing games and leaving facts out and comparing 17 year old years to 19/20 year old years....Tedenby's Goals per Game compare favorably with any player in your list from the SEL.
Tedenby is a future top 6 player for sure. Due to Lemaire's influence, he is becoming less one-dimensional. For a variety of reasons, his playing time has been curtailed, both here and in the SEL. Once the Devils take the training wheels off, he'll be a star.
Tedenby is a future top 6 player for sure. Due to Lemaire's influence, he is becoming less one-dimensional. For a variety of reasons, his playing time has been curtailed, both here and in the SEL. Once the Devils take the training wheels off, he'll be a star.
I agree, but never say he is a top 6er for sure. Combine that with the fact that you said he will be a star, and you'll be set up for disappointment. I'm not saying he won't be though.
It's the same for Rundblad. All signs point towards him being a top pairing defenceman, but he could be a giant flop as well.
You should expect two things when projecting numbers up to the NHL, they might stay the same or they'll go down. Guys who aren't big scorers through the ranks aren't going to all of a sudden turn into big scorers in the NHL.
Just out of curiousity, where do you think Tedenby would rank on the Sens for TOI per point? I just did some quick computations based on a couple of their better players. I will tell you this. You won't like the result for what you deem a scrub prospect.
Just out of curiousity, where do you think Tedenby would rank on the Sens for TOI per point? I just did some quick computations based on a couple of their better players. I will tell you this. You won't like the result for what you deem a scrub prospect.
TSA, it's a valid point, but its not fair to compare anyone to the worst offensive team in Senators history (not actually).
That is so ridiculous. Tedenby's 1st season in the SEL he was 16 turning 17 year old and the correlating season in some case is that of 18 and 19 year olds....Stop it already. These statements continue get dumber and dumber.
Again, you don't understand what those numbers mean whatsoever do you?
Here is a visual legend for you:
Quote:
0 DRAFT SUMMER
1
2
3
Nobody is comparing 16 year olds vs. 19 year olds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
And your numbers are simply wrong...Because in Rundbalds case you conveniently left out his first two years in the SEL where he scored a whopping 10 points over 51 games to begin with some production, when the reality is he did nothing as 17 year old just like Tedenby or any other 17/18 year old in the SEL save for special players....
2007-08 Skelleftea HC SEL 6 0 0 0 2 0
2008-09 Skelleftea HC SEL 45 0 10 10 8 3 10 1 1 2 2
2009-10 Skelleftea HC SEL 47 1 12 13 14 4 12 0 1 1 2
2010-11 Skelleftea HC SEL 55 11 39 50 14 5 18 3 7 10 20
They were pre-draft.
I also conveniently left out Tedenby's pre-draft SEL stats from 07-08.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimEIV
I don't have the time to fact check your nonsense, but with a quick glance I can see you are playing games and leaving facts out and comparing 17 year old years to 19/20 year old years....Tedenby's Goals per Game compare favorably with any player in your list from the SEL.
Now stop the idiocy
No, I didn't. If you still do not understand what those numbers above mean... I will try yet another way to explain it to you.
If you do happen to understand now; how about you post some draft day ages so that we can compare how many months apart those players being compared were... as opposed to the 2-3 years apart that you are claiming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TSA0402
Just out of curiousity, where do you think Tedenby would rank on the Sens for TOI per point? I just did some quick computations based on a couple of their better players. I will tell you this. You won't like the result for what you deem a scrub prospect.
very disappointing 
