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Gormley piece: Carle v. Leino?

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Old
05-31-2011, 06:36 PM
  #176
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Carle doesn't often leave his feet to block shots. The majority of his blocked shots are from having his check angled off and being between the shooter and the Goalie, and recognizing and reading the play. That's solid positioning and he is very good at it.
In my opinion there are other areas that the team could use to acquire a Goalie. I want to keep all 3 players and build the team around them as the young defense core. Especially with the age of Timonen and Pronger. They also need to limit the minutes of Pronger and Timonen and not veruse them during the regular Season. I think it's very important to keep the defensvie depth we have.
I haven't really thought of how Carle blocks shots most of the time, so I guess that falls into that if-you-don't-notice-it-it-is-good pile. I just reacted to the argument that shot blocking means good positioning. Having spent my playing time as a defensiveminded d playing under three consecutive coaches who all stressed that succesful defending meant not having to go down to block a shot, I can be bit touchy on that subject.

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05-31-2011, 06:39 PM
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
It's easier to get assists playing for the Flyers than it would be for someone on Edmonton. Correct?
It's easier to score a goal in Philadelphia than it is in Edmonton, in part because Matt Carle is here to feed forwards. Some credit where it's due...

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05-31-2011, 06:45 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Giroux tha Damaja View Post
It's easier to score a goal in Philadelphia than it is in Edmonton, in part because Matt Carle is here to feed forwards. Some credit where it's due...
Playmaking is useless without people to put the pass into the back of the net. Like I said, 39 Assists is good. He'd have a good amount on other teams, but probably not 39.

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05-31-2011, 06:50 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Playmaking is useless without people to put the pass into the back of the net. Like I said, 39 Assists is good. He'd have a good amount on other teams, but probably not 39.
Appreciated, I'm just presenting the other side of the coin.

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05-31-2011, 06:54 PM
  #180
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Appreciated, I'm just presenting the other side of the coin.

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05-31-2011, 07:37 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
Good point about Kukkonen. At first I thought it was a good stat that Kukkonen was a good shot blocker but then after watching his game I noticed constantly that Kukkonen's shot blocks were more the result of him screwing up the initial play with a turnover in his end etc. He and the team would have to expend unecessary energy trying to regain possession of the puck. Kukonnen was good at covering up his initial mistakes but it def was not good for the flow of the play/transtion game for the Flyers. Carle has his Kukkonen moments as well and sometimes they can be pronounced for a number of games like in the playoffs when the intensity picks up and his decisions have to be sharper.....
Kukkonen got noticeably worse over his time here.

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05-31-2011, 07:41 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Playmaking is useless without people to put the pass into the back of the net. Like I said, 39 Assists is good. He'd have a good amount on other teams, but probably not 39.
Is that different for Matt Carle than is for any other player, on any other team? Does that in any way change the fact that Carle had 39 assists to rank 11th among NHL defenseman?

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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I can minimalize them because he causes quite a few scoring chances against with failed passes, brain farts, or generally just doing who-knows-what at times. I don't know how many times I've exclaimed "you sure as hell owed the team that" on a Carle pass resulting in a goal. He also has a tendency to get pounded in a physical 7 game series.

Mez didn't have as many assists, but he sure as hell had a few more gamewinning goals, and won a couple games in OT. I'll take goals over assists.

If his cap hit was 2.5 mil I'd be fine with him. But it, isn't.
That's a nice speech but there isn't anything factual there. It's just an opinion. Same as mine. And my opinion hasn't changed. Every defenseman including Meszaros makes bad plays from time to time. Players are graded on chances for/chances against. I'd be curious to know how Crle grades out there. I bet it's well on the chances for side. How many assists did Carle have on game winning goals? I really don't know how Meszaros scoring some big goals, minimalizes the contributions Carle made to the team. A lot of times, goals don't happen without the execution made before the shot is taken. It's a team game.


Last edited by Beef Invictus: 05-31-2011 at 07:49 PM.
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05-31-2011, 07:49 PM
  #183
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We just need to agree to disagree. Also, remind me to tell you about the site's multi-quote feature sometime

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06-01-2011, 10:49 AM
  #184
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A finnish tabloid, Iltalehti, had an interview/story with Leino in todays paper, and after reading that I think it's best to let him go. He seemed like his "success" has made his ego 10x as big as it should be for a secondary scorer/roleplayer. He was talking about what kind of Mercedes he's going to buy once he cashes in, and talked about how big of a star he is in the city of Philadelphia(I doubt he's all that big). I know tabloids can twist words, but he has always seemed like a smug SOB, and he has shown that he isn't the hardest (off-season) worker before, so giving him millions isn't probably the way to go.

As I've said before, he's the most un-finnish finn I've ever known, in both good and bad. He takes chances/is creative on the ice, which most "play it safe" finns don't tend to do, but he lacks the work-ethic, humility and loyalty most finns tend to have which have always made "our" players good fits as third-liners/role players who "shut up and work hard". I'm sure he'll get his money from some team, but I don't think we really need him.

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06-01-2011, 11:31 AM
  #185
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Originally Posted by PhillyPhinn View Post
A finnish tabloid, Iltalehti, had an interview/story with Leino in todays paper, and after reading that I think it's best to let him go. He seemed like his "success" has made his ego 10x as big as it should be for a secondary scorer/roleplayer. He was talking about what kind of Mercedes he's going to buy once he cashes in, and talked about how big of a star he is in the city of Philadelphia(I doubt he's all that big). I know tabloids can twist words, but he has always seemed like a smug SOB, and he has shown that he isn't the hardest (off-season) worker before, so giving him millions isn't probably the way to go.

As I've said before, he's the most un-finnish finn I've ever known, in both good and bad. He takes chances/is creative on the ice, which most "play it safe" finns don't tend to do, but he lacks the work-ethic, humility and loyalty most finns tend to have which have always made "our" players good fits as third-liners/role players who "shut up and work hard". I'm sure he'll get his money from some team, but I don't think we really need him.
What a load of crap

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06-01-2011, 12:03 PM
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PhillyPhinn View Post
A finnish tabloid, Iltalehti, had an interview/story with Leino in todays paper, and after reading that I think it's best to let him go. He seemed like his "success" has made his ego 10x as big as it should be for a secondary scorer/roleplayer. He was talking about what kind of Mercedes he's going to buy once he cashes in, and talked about how big of a star he is in the city of Philadelphia(I doubt he's all that big). I know tabloids can twist words, but he has always seemed like a smug SOB, and he has shown that he isn't the hardest (off-season) worker before, so giving him millions isn't probably the way to go.

As I've said before, he's the most un-finnish finn I've ever known, in both good and bad. He takes chances/is creative on the ice, which most "play it safe" finns don't tend to do, but he lacks the work-ethic, humility and loyalty most finns tend to have which have always made "our" players good fits as third-liners/role players who "shut up and work hard". I'm sure he'll get his money from some team, but I don't think we really need him.
Some of what you say is corroborated somewhat in an article that was discussed in this thread....

Play it again Leino
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=903108

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06-01-2011, 12:20 PM
  #187
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so who here thinks Versteeg or anyone else gets traded?
I dont want to talk about defenseman #25 on whether he can be traded or not or whether he sucks or not.
This has turned into a defenseman #25 thread. I am not mentioning his name anymore.

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06-01-2011, 12:53 PM
  #188
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so who here thinks Versteeg or anyone else gets traded?
I dont want to talk about defenseman #25 on whether he can be traded or not or whether he sucks or not.
This has turned into a defenseman #25 thread. I am not mentioning his name anymore.
On that note, this thread reminded me of the old days with arguing with JXC on Randy Jones.

Ahh the good ol days. We saw how the Randy Jones thing went .

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06-01-2011, 12:53 PM
  #189
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06-01-2011, 12:54 PM
  #190
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We were all just haters, dontcha know?
The hate made him fail. It's not his fault.

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06-01-2011, 12:55 PM
  #191
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I'd rather not trade Carle because it will kill the defensive depth. With Pronger aging and getting injured, I don't think it is wise to trade Carle. Who will replace him adequately without bringing in another defenseman who makes the same amount of money or more than he does?

Not resigning Leino is a consequence of the salary cap. That kind of move happens today because of the cap, and I am fine with that. Sure I'd love to keep him, but it is more important to free up cap space for a goalie.

If Carle is traded, we are back with 4 overused defensemen, two of which are closing in on 40 yrs old. Pronger and Timonen should neither be playing more than 21 or 22 minutes per game. Two seasons ago the team was not willing to play Parent and Bartulis, and I don't know what would make anyone think defensemen of this skill level and inexperience will get a shot at playing 17 - 20 minutes per game this next season and through the playoffs.

Also, once injuries hit, which they always do as part of the sport, the Flyers will then be sporting 3 low-skill defensemen. I don't care what goalie you have, when you have unskilled defensemen giving up opportunities, the other team will score.

I am not the best at number crunching, but I believe Carle's salary cap hit puts him in the #53-67 range overall for NHL defensemen salary cap hits. Can you think of another defenseman who the Flyers could obtain for less than that hit and yet be a better defensman?


Last edited by Pantokrator: 06-01-2011 at 01:15 PM.
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06-01-2011, 01:03 PM
  #192
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waiving Leighton and Walker will not be enough to pay for a goaltender. So someone has to go. I would be more opposed to trading defenseman #25 if he had a. a better cap hit, and b. wasnt a lost puppy in the defensive end.
There arent many other candidates to get moved to free up space, unless you are talking about asking Hartnell to waive his no trade clause. right now you wouldnt get much for Versteeg.

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06-02-2011, 08:08 PM
  #193
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Being paired with Danny F* Syvret in the playoffs didn't help.

As long as he keeps making outstanding outlet passes that result in goals, and assists, I think Philly will excuse the brain farts and two-hand touch defense.

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06-02-2011, 08:24 PM
  #194
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Being paired with Danny F* Syvret in the playoffs didn't help.

As long as he keeps making outstanding outlet passes that result in goals, and assists, I think Philly will excuse the brain farts and two-hand touch defense.
Yeah, Danny Syvret and his 6:49 per game really dragged Matt Carle down in the playoffs.

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06-02-2011, 09:13 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Pantokrator View Post
I'd rather not trade Carle because it will kill the defensive depth. With Pronger aging and getting injured, I don't think it is wise to trade Carle. Who will replace him adequately without bringing in another defenseman who makes the same amount of money or more than he does?

Not resigning Leino is a consequence of the salary cap. That kind of move happens today because of the cap, and I am fine with that. Sure I'd love to keep him, but it is more important to free up cap space for a goalie.

If Carle is traded, we are back with 4 overused defensemen, two of which are closing in on 40 yrs old. Pronger and Timonen should neither be playing more than 21 or 22 minutes per game. Two seasons ago the team was not willing to play Parent and Bartulis, and I don't know what would make anyone think defensemen of this skill level and inexperience will get a shot at playing 17 - 20 minutes per game this next season and through the playoffs.

Also, once injuries hit, which they always do as part of the sport, the Flyers will then be sporting 3 low-skill defensemen. I don't care what goalie you have, when you have unskilled defensemen giving up opportunities, the other team will score.

I am not the best at number crunching, but I believe Carle's salary cap hit puts him in the #53-67 range overall for NHL defensemen salary cap hits. Can you think of another defenseman who the Flyers could obtain for less than that hit and yet be a better defensman?
Great post you've summed it up well.

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06-02-2011, 09:15 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by GoneFullHolmgren View Post
waiving Leighton and Walker will not be enough to pay for a goaltender. So someone has to go. I would be more opposed to trading defenseman #25 if he had a. a better cap hit, and b. wasnt a lost puppy in the defensive end.
There arent many other candidates to get moved to free up space, unless you are talking about asking Hartnell to waive his no trade clause. right now you wouldnt get much for Versteeg.
Cool, because Carle Cap hit is very reasonable for a player of his caliber, and he's reliable in his own end. Versteeg has value in a trade.

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06-02-2011, 09:17 PM
  #197
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Cool, because Carle Cap hit is very reasonable for a player of his caliber, and he's reliable in his own end. Versteeg has value in a trade.
Considering his weakness on defense, it's about a million too much. Versteeg's value is far too low now as well.

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06-02-2011, 09:24 PM
  #198
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Considering his weakness on defense, it's about a million too much. Versteeg's value is far too low now as well.
Like I said and credible NHL analysts who cover the team agree, Carle is reliable in his own end. And his Cap hit is reasonable for a player of his production. If a player like Carle with his production was on the UFA market, he'd be looking at atleast 4M a year.
NHL GM's are smart enough to know that one small sample of games with a player coming to a new team, adjusting to a new system and new players. As well as having a confirmed injury that obviously affected him. Doesn't drastically reduce a players value. Versteeg is still a talented young 24 year old player with upside, that has already been a key member of a Cup winning team. That kind of player has value.


Last edited by VanSciver: 06-02-2011 at 09:32 PM.
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06-02-2011, 09:35 PM
  #199
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Unless we are getting something similar to a 1st and a 3rd back for Versteeg, there's no point trading him now. No GM is going to give that if Homer offers him, they will probably try to lowball him because of his recent performance. I'd rather keep him and hope he raises his value by playing better.

edit: As for GMs knowing better than to look at small sample sizes...one need look no further than Leighton's or Shelley's contracts to realize that isn't always the case.

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06-02-2011, 09:37 PM
  #200
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Unless we are getting something similar to a 1st and a 3rd back for Versteeg, there's no point trading him now. No GM is going to give that if Homer offers him, they will probably try to lowball him because of his recent performance. I'd rather keep him and hope he raises his value by playing better.
That's a reasonable point. I think they could get good value for him, but possibly not as much as they gave up.

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