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Yet another Carter....Cbj/PHI

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Old
05-31-2011, 08:10 AM
  #26
PhillyCurt12
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won't happen, homer would want to include at least one 2nd rounder lol

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05-31-2011, 09:48 AM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freaky Habs Fan View Post
But two goalscorer on one line? It can work, we've seen it before, but in this case, I just can't see it. For that package, I'm sure Columbus could get a better player (overall and for their needs) than Carter.
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Originally Posted by Manked View Post
Usually the third member of that line would have to be a pretty good playmaker for that to work.
Nash has developed incredibly underrated passing skills over the last 3 years. A lot of people think that he's just a two-way, goal-scoring powerforward, but he'll throw the puck across the ice and guys like Brassard, Vermette, Voracek, or Huselius sometimes can't cash in on a great pass.

But they also don't need to play on the same line, as Brassard or Vermette can play along Nash. Just having Carter would take all of the goal-scoring pressure off of Nash. We need good players before we can nit pick who they are IMO. Another 30-40 goal threat is what this team needs in its top 6 badly.

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05-31-2011, 09:54 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
2) Columbus has a depleted defense core that should be a bigger focus than acquiring another center.
This is my hold up on the deal. I've outlined why I'd like to have Carter, but our defense really needs a lot of work first. However, if Carter were to be acquired, I'd assume Brassard or Vermette would be dangled for a defenseman.

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05-31-2011, 11:00 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
The value is very good and I'd have to think about it. I'm not sure if this makes Columbus a better team though in the future.

1) There is only one puck. Even with that said, its already been mentioned they will need a good playmaking winger.

2) Columbus has a depleted defense core that should be a bigger focus than acquiring another center.

Everyone is worried about there being 2 "goal scorers" on the same line and there only being one puck. Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, Carter is a MUCH better play maker then anyone realizes. Is he a Crosby type, hell no but he's much better than he's given credit for being. I didn't realize this until I watched him with Giroux, JVR and Briere over the last 2 seasons. When he was paired with Hartnell and Lupul those 2 couldn't keep up with him skating-wise and both are brain dead when it comes to reading developing plays. Carter would TRY to set them up and those 2 idiots just blew it left and right. Carter HAD to be a one man show when paired with them because he was the only one CAPABLE with the puck on that line.


Also, does anyone remember last year when Heatley, Thorton and Marleau were paired together???? They were by far the best line in hockey and everyone then was saying that you COULDN'T put all 3 together because there is only one puck to go between 3 superstars. Well, it worked great for them last year and I see no reason why it couldn't work here too. I'll tell you what, if you guys don't want Nash playing with Carter then trade him to us, I'd LOVE to have Nash on Carters wing and I'm dead serious. That wouldn't bother me at all. No team could shut both guys down. At best you hope to contain them both as much as possible (just like you can't shut down Crosby, Malkin and Ovi, you just hope to contain them for as long as possible).

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05-31-2011, 11:03 AM
  #30
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I came back to see how hard I was hammered for this proposal, but thanks everyone for thinkin its pretty fair. It would make a lot of sense both ways. Columbus HAS to win now. its not about building for the future anymore. I live here in Columbus, and grew up a Philly fan. But the CBJ lost 25 Mil this season and 53 mil over the last 3. They have got to start winning to get butts back in the seats or else we could be next to move. That is why the CBJ would part with Voracek, and its not a secret they are actively shopping the 8th pick.

Thanks again people

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05-31-2011, 11:27 AM
  #31
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I like the deal but I don't see the CBJ doing it. Carter's contract goes out another 10 years. It will expire when he's 36. No way do the Jackets commit to a deal like this. Anyway we can substitute Cater for Briere? I thought so - sorry for asking. How about a package that included Mezaros+?

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05-31-2011, 11:45 AM
  #32
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Originally Posted by CBJ Bob View Post
I like the deal but I don't see the CBJ doing it. Carter's contract goes out another 10 years. It will expire when he's 36. No way do the Jackets commit to a deal like this. Anyway we can substitute Cater for Briere? I thought so - sorry for asking. How about a package that included Mezaros+?
Having a player like Carter signed for 11 years at what would be considered slightly below market value right now is EXACTLY the type of contract that a team with financial issues SHOULD be looking to aquire. There is a potential risk but if you can get a top scoring first line player locked up for around 5 mil for basically their entire career it's a good thing. With the cap going up each year a player like Carter will only become MORE desirable as he'll be even more of a cap-bargin as the years roll on.

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05-31-2011, 11:56 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Having a player like Carter signed for 11 years at what would be considered slightly below market value right now is EXACTLY the type of contract that a team with financial issues SHOULD be looking to aquire. There is a potential risk but if you can get a top scoring first line player locked up for around 5 mil for basically their entire career it's a good thing. With the cap going up each year a player like Carter will only become MORE desirable as he'll be even more of a cap-bargin as the years roll on.
Point well taken but try to understand from Columbus' point of view. We've been stuck with expensive/long term contracts for guys like Federov, Berrard, Foote... IMO 10 years of $5.3M per is probably more than Mgt would commit to. I would do it but I doubt CBJ Mgt would.

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05-31-2011, 11:59 AM
  #34
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I'd definitely do this deal. I wanted Voracek the year the Flyers drafted JVR second (phew, boy was I wrong about that), and would be delighted to have him now.

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05-31-2011, 12:04 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by CBJ Bob View Post
Point well taken but try to understand from Columbus' point of view. We've been stuck with expensive/long term contracts for guys like Federov, Berrard, Foote... IMO 10 years of $5.3M per is probably more than Mgt would commit to. I would do it but I doubt CBJ Mgt would.
Fair enough, but did you get those guys right as they were just entering their prime years or on the downward slide of their careers?


I REALLY don't want to see us trade Carter. I LOVE the idea of us having him and richards locked up for basically their careers for their current prices. Carter at just under 5.3 mil is much much better than Hartnell at 4.2 mil. Versteeg at ust over 3 mil, Leino at 3 mil or whatever he signs to, Carle/Mesz/Coburn at their prices.

I HOPE TO GOD that we can get both Giroux and JVR to buy into the "Flyer for life" idea like Richards and Carter did and we get them to each sign 10-12 year deals for less than 6 mill too.

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05-31-2011, 12:14 PM
  #36
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To be honest, if CBJ got Carter, they probably would not be on the same line. Carter would probably center another line, giving them two scoring lines.

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05-31-2011, 12:16 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Ludicrous Speed View Post
This is my hold up on the deal. I've outlined why I'd like to have Carter, but our defense really needs a lot of work first. However, if Carter were to be acquired, I'd assume Brassard or Vermette would be dangled for a defenseman.

Exactly I like the idea of Carter, Johansen, Vermette, Brassard down the middle but at the expense of having Tyutin/Methot being the 1st defensive pairing?

I'm also not sure how easy it will be to complete this trade and then dangle either player for a top 4 defenseman. It would be nice, ideal in fact to get a good young proven top 4 Dman for Brassard or Vermette. All the offers I've seen are castoffs and possibles which aren't of much help.


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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Everyone is worried about there being 2 "goal scorers" on the same line and there only being one puck. Well, I'll let you in on a little secret, Carter is a MUCH better play maker then anyone realizes. Is he a Crosby type, hell no but he's much better than he's given credit for being. I didn't realize this until I watched him with Giroux, JVR and Briere over the last 2 seasons. When he was paired with Hartnell and Lupul those 2 couldn't keep up with him skating-wise and both are brain dead when it comes to reading developing plays. Carter would TRY to set them up and those 2 idiots just blew it left and right. Carter HAD to be a one man show when paired with them because he was the only one CAPABLE with the puck on that line.


Also, does anyone remember last year when Heatley, Thorton and Marleau were paired together???? They were by far the best line in hockey and everyone then was saying that you COULDN'T put all 3 together because there is only one puck to go between 3 superstars. Well, it worked great for them last year and I see no reason why it couldn't work here too. I'll tell you what, if you guys don't want Nash playing with Carter then trade him to us, I'd LOVE to have Nash on Carters wing and I'm dead serious. That wouldn't bother me at all. No team could shut both guys down. At best you hope to contain them both as much as possible (just like you can't shut down Crosby, Malkin and Ovi, you just hope to contain them for as long as possible).
To be honest, I thought Vermette was an underrated playmaker as well if he just stayed on his skates and grinded less who had the same problem with teammates(not named Nash) not burying his chances. My condolences. Lupul. Ok. That just might explain it.

I probably am underrating Carters playmaking, but I haven't seen very much of him and most of the time I see a puck first player. Nash is a good playmaker and I really shouldn't be picking straws over a good center like Carter. I do think Voracek will be close to his ceiling and I might overrate him which is why I am hesitant. Having Carter and Johansen(assuming he becomes at least a 2C which imo is fairly likely) or even Brassard as two centres would be pretty lethal.

Phlocky sorry if I forgot but I was under the impression you didn't want Carter traded correct? Also how is Carter at the wing position?

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05-31-2011, 12:21 PM
  #38
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Why would they trade all that away when they already have their future first line center in Johansen? Carter is good don't get me wrong, but there is a chance they could get a guy who would be as good as Carter one day with that draft pick, along with the fact voracek is a top 6 forward who is still really young and might one day be the RW on their top line.

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05-31-2011, 12:21 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
Fair enough, but did you get those guys right as they were just entering their prime years or on the downward slide of their careers?


I REALLY don't want to see us trade Carter. I LOVE the idea of us having him and richards locked up for basically their careers for their current prices. Carter at just under 5.3 mil is much much better than Hartnell at 4.2 mil. Versteeg at ust over 3 mil, Leino at 3 mil or whatever he signs to, Carle/Mesz/Coburn at their prices.

I HOPE TO GOD that we can get both Giroux and JVR to buy into the "Flyer for life" idea like Richards and Carter did and we get them to each sign 10-12 year deals for less than 6 mill too.
Those deals were done by our desperate X-GM who made Mike Milbury look rational. Listen one of our biggest needs is defense, you've got an abandance of Defensemen. You need Cap space and we have Cap space. Pronger would not be a good fit. I'm sure we can make a deal...

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05-31-2011, 12:40 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by TSA0402 View Post
Exactly I like the idea of Carter, Johansen, Vermette, Brassard down the middle but at the expense of having Tyutin/Methot being the 1st defensive pairing?

I'm also not sure how easy it will be to complete this trade and then dangle either player for a top 4 defenseman. It would be nice, ideal in fact to get a good young proven top 4 Dman for Brassard or Vermette. All the offers I've seen are castoffs and possibles which aren't of much help.




To be honest, I thought Vermette was an underrated playmaker as well if he just stayed on his skates and grinded less who had the same problem with teammates(not named Nash) not burying his chances. My condolences. Lupul. Ok. That just might explain it.

I probably am underrating Carters playmaking, but I haven't seen very much of him and most of the time I see a puck first player. Nash is a good playmaker and I really shouldn't be picking straws over a good center like Carter. I do think Voracek will be close to his ceiling and I might overrate him which is why I am hesitant. Having Carter and Johansen(assuming he becomes at least a 2C which imo is fairly likely) or even Brassard as two centres would be pretty lethal.

Phlocky sorry if I forgot but I was under the impression you didn't want Carter traded correct? Also how is Carter at the wing position?
You are correct, I really don't want Carter traded. I want to keep him. I really like him. I have no issue with his "lack" of playoff performance. This year he was injured. Last year he actually PLAYED on 2 broken feet. Try just waling with broken feet. They were at least partially healed but not completely. Have any of you had broken toes before???? It hurt like hell just to walk, especially up and down stairs. Carter had TWO broken feet

Carter is miss-use on the wing. He's much better in the middle. Honestly, he's miss-used in Philly in general. He's a very good defensive forward too and we too often place that responsibility on him and limit him offensively. HE should be centering a #1 scoring line and just let him open up the offensive game. 2 years ago in the playoffs we lost to the Pens in the 1st rnd but we pretty much out played them most of the games. Fleury WON the Pens that series (and the cup too that year) and Carter was our best offensive player that series. The only thing that stopped Carter that series was Fleury.

IMO, Carter should play center, Briere and Leino on his wings, and Hartnell should be dealt. THAT is what I want the Flyers to do.

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05-31-2011, 12:56 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by CBJ Bob View Post
Those deals were done by our desperate X-GM who made Mike Milbury look rational. Listen one of our biggest needs is defense, you've got an abandance of Defensemen. You need Cap space and we have Cap space. Pronger would not be a good fit. I'm sure we can make a deal...

The most viable option there would be Carle. He's more than half a mil cheaper than Meszaros and we need Coburn too much to trade him. Carle is a pretty good skater, he's a solid puck mover and he QB's our 2nd PP unit (for the past 3 seasons). He's only signed for 1 year so there's no long term commitment at this point. He's a finess type dman so he needs a physical partnell TBH. He can LEAD the 2nd pairing or play a complimentary role on the top pairing. He's better in the offensive zone than he is in the defensive zone but he's far from bad (actually average at worst) in his own zone and with the right partner

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05-31-2011, 01:01 PM
  #42
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You are correct, I really don't want Carter traded. I want to keep him. I really like him. I have no issue with his "lack" of playoff performance. This year he was injured. Last year he actually PLAYED on 2 broken feet. Try just waling with broken feet. They were at least partially healed but not completely. Have any of you had broken toes before???? It hurt like hell just to walk, especially up and down stairs. Carter had TWO broken feet

Carter is miss-use on the wing. He's much better in the middle. Honestly, he's miss-used in Philly in general. He's a very good defensive forward too and we too often place that responsibility on him and limit him offensively. HE should be centering a #1 scoring line and just let him open up the offensive game. 2 years ago in the playoffs we lost to the Pens in the 1st rnd but we pretty much out played them most of the games. Fleury WON the Pens that series (and the cup too that year) and Carter was our best offensive player that series. The only thing that stopped Carter that series was Fleury.

IMO, Carter should play center, Briere and Leino on his wings, and Hartnell should be dealt. THAT is what I want the Flyers to do.
Good to know. I've always thought Hartnell was a bit overrated but seems to be a fan favorite in Philadelphia.

I'm getting intrigued by the idea even if Johansen does pan out. Having two 1C's on the same team. I am definetly a fan of this strategy. Too bad it will never happen.

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05-31-2011, 01:04 PM
  #43
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No thanks, ill take my chances on Johansen

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05-31-2011, 01:10 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
The most viable option there would be Carle. He's more than half a mil cheaper than Meszaros and we need Coburn too much to trade him. Carle is a pretty good skater, he's a solid puck mover and he QB's our 2nd PP unit (for the past 3 seasons). He's only signed for 1 year so there's no long term commitment at this point. He's a finess type dman so he needs a physical partnell TBH. He can LEAD the 2nd pairing or play a complimentary role on the top pairing. He's better in the offensive zone than he is in the defensive zone but he's far from bad (actually average at worst) in his own zone and with the right partner
CBJ Mgt would probably be gun shy about committing to a 10 year deal (Carter) but would buy into a 4 year one (Meszaros). I love Carle but that is too much for us to give up for a guy going into his last year of his contract. I'd be willing to do a deal with us giving up what was originally proposed with Meszaros PLUS coming back.

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05-31-2011, 01:12 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by CBJBrassard16 View Post
No thanks, ill take my chances on Johansen
I dunno. Having a team in which Derick Brassard and Antoine Vermette are your #3 and #4 centers would be pretty damn nice.

That said, blueline blueline blueline fix the blueline blueline more blueline won't anyone think of the blueline oh my sweet G-d the blueline. Any way we could pick up Carle in this deal?

(Note: It wouldn't be for Methot. Methot's the physical guy we'd want playing with him.)

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05-31-2011, 01:18 PM
  #46
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I dunno. Having a team in which Derick Brassard and Antoine Vermette are your #3 and #4 centers would be pretty damn nice.

That said, blueline blueline blueline fix the blueline blueline more blueline won't anyone think of the blueline oh my sweet G-d the blueline. Any way we could pick up Carle in this deal?

(Note: It wouldn't be for Methot. Methot's the physical guy we'd want playing with him.)
Brassard or Vermette would be traded rather than toil away in the bottom 6. I agree about D. The problem withe Carle is his contract is over 6/30/2012. That's way too much to give up for one year of Carle. Meszaros PLUS anyone?

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05-31-2011, 01:23 PM
  #47
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CBJ Mgt would probably be gun shy about committing to a 10 year deal (Carter) but would buy into a 4 year one (Meszaros). I love Carle but that is too much for us to give up for a guy going into his last year of his contract. I'd be willing to do a deal with us giving up what was originally proposed with Meszaros PLUS coming back.
???? Seriously ???? You'd give up Voracek + prospect + 2011 1st for Mesz + ???? Understand that Giroux and JVR really aren't available and then I can't see anything left in Philly that would be that appealing for CBJ to be willing to give up that much in a trade. Your pick this year will be much better than our 1st next year even though next years draft is suppose to be really strong. Leino ??? He's an RFA and I can't see his rights being that valuable. Versteeg/Hartnell??? Sure if you really want them but I think you lose that deal by a lot.

Persoanlly, I think Voracek is more valuable than Mesz straight up let alone all that was included in the original deal. I'd do Mesz + Wellwood (our top forward prospect, likely a 3rd line player, posability of 2nd line but most likely 3rd liner). I still wouldn't do it from CBJ's POV but if you really want to then it's fine with me.

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05-31-2011, 01:28 PM
  #48
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I say no deal today. I then go to various teams and say here is what we can get Carter with, if you want this package and you can offer a near equal defender in return we can talk. If nothing comes back, I say yes to this deal next week. Brassard can move to wing if needed and we can role with a line of Nash Carter Brassard.

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05-31-2011, 01:34 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by phlocky View Post
???? Seriously ???? You'd give up Voracek + prospect + 2011 1st for Mesz + ???? Understand that Giroux and JVR really aren't available and then I can't see anything left in Philly that would be that appealing for CBJ to be willing to give up that much in a trade. Your pick this year will be much better than our 1st next year even though next years draft is suppose to be really strong. Leino ??? He's an RFA and I can't see his rights being that valuable. Versteeg/Hartnell??? Sure if you really want them but I think you lose that deal by a lot.

Persoanlly, I think Voracek is more valuable than Mesz straight up let alone all that was included in the original deal. I'd do Mesz + Wellwood (our top forward prospect, likely a 3rd line player, posability of 2nd line but most likely 3rd liner). I still wouldn't do it from CBJ's POV but if you really want to then it's fine with me.
The PLUS that I'd want back would be Hartnell (if he waived his NMC). We'd have a top pairing Dman and another top 6 power forward. Our team needs needs to win now. Voracek needs more time to mature and we have an awful record of drafting/development so parting with the #6 overall and a good prospect isn't the end of the world.

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05-31-2011, 01:39 PM
  #50
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I'd rather have Voracek at around 2.5 or so mil, then Leino at 3.0m +
Oh hell yes.

I wanted the Flyers to draft Voracek in '06 so seeing him in a Flyers jersey would make me very happy.

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