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Flyers Lose Joacim Eriksson's Rights

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Old
06-06-2011, 02:45 PM
  #351
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
Im being serious, how old are you? The working environment isnt as cookie cutting as you make it out to be. Just because they have a "professional" title doesnt make them superior to all others. Just because they make a decision they think is right doesn't make them right. And when they make a decision in an area where they are usually wrong in, the % chance of them being wrong again is higher than them being right.
Asking me how old I am is an asinine question. And is irrelevant. And where did I say that "they" are superior to all others. But the titles that Holmgren, and his advisors hold does say they are superior at one thing compared to you, I or others on this board. And that's in running a Hockey team and making players decisions. Because if you or I were on thier level at that task, we wouldn't be posting here on hfboards, we'd be employed in some manner with a Hockey organization. Certainly your old enough to understand that.

Anyone with common sense following this game realizes that talent evaluating isn't an exact science and mistakes are made. There isn't an NHL exec or scout currently in the NHL who hasn't made some mistakes. It's the nature of the business.

We've got a bunch of people here who feel the Flyers have made a mistake, who've likely never even seen the player play a singe game. All they know is they read his name on some outdated prospect list. I don't know that the Flyers are right here. No one could know that. But I also don't know that they're wrong. And I'm not qualified to speak with any authority on the player. While Holmgren and his staff are. So how am I or you, or anyone on here qualified to tell them they're wrong?



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Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
How many games have YOU seen him play?
I've seen him play zero games. That's why why you won't read a post from me saying the Flyers made a mistake and walked away from their top prospect.


Last edited by VanSciver: 06-06-2011 at 02:50 PM. Reason: Spelling
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06-06-2011, 02:47 PM
  #352
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Mistake post. Sorry

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06-06-2011, 02:50 PM
  #353
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Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
2004 - 1st Round
2005 - Steve Downie
2006 - Claude Giroux
2007 - James vanRiemsdyk

2008 - Luca Sbisa, 1st Round
2009 - 1st Round
2010 - 1st Round
2011 - 1st Round

The Flyers have traded 7 1st rounders and kept 2 1st Rounders in the last 8 years.

You don't even want to know what our 2nd round run-down looks like.
Eight first rounders including the one we sent back to Nashville.

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06-06-2011, 02:52 PM
  #354
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I've seen him play zero games. That's why why you won't read a post from me saying the Flyers made a mistake and walked away for their top prospect.
No, but you're defending that they let him go. I've seen him. Plenty of my friends have seen him a lot these past two seasons.

Plus, it's never a bad thing to actually have prospects. Look at the goalie pipeline in Nashville for example. They have Rinne (28), Lindbäck (23), Dekanich (25), Pickard (21).
That's depth. The Flyers have none of it. Bobrovsky doesn't equal depth. Neither does Hovinen, who really has proven nothing to make the claim to be a better prospect than Ericsson.

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06-06-2011, 02:57 PM
  #355
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Asking me how old I am is an asinine question. And is irrelevant. And where did I say that "they" are superior to all others. But the titles that Holmgren, and his advisors hold does say they are superior at one thing compared to you, I or others on this board. And that's in running a Hockey team and making players decisions. Because if you or I were on thier level at that task, we wouldn't be posting here on hfboards, we'd be employed in some manner with a Hockey organization. Certainly your old enough to understand that.

Anyone with common sense following this game realizes that talent evaluating isn't an exact science and mistakes are made. There isn't an NHL exec or scout currently in the NHL who hasn't made some mistakes. It's the nature of the business.

We've got a bunch of people here who feel the Flyers have made a mistake, who've likely never even seen the player play a singe game. All they know is they read his name on some outdated prospect list. I don't know that the Flyers are right here. No one could know that. But I also don't know that they're wrong. And I'm not qualified to speak with any authority on the player. While Holmgren and his staff are. So how am I or you, or anyone on here qualified to tell them they're wrong?





I've seen him play zero games. That's why why you won't read a post from me saying the Flyers made a mistake and walked away from their top prospect.

But see, this is EXACTLY what we are saying. You are missing most of our points. I and some others HAVE talked to people that either watched them as much as the organization/more (or in some cases our Swedish posters HAVE watched him). Does what they say, since they seen as much as the Flyers prospects as the Flyers scouts have, give them more authority in classifying this as a mistake than not a mistake?

Of course they make mistakes, everyone does. But when you constantly make mistakes, especially in the same department, you need to find a way to improve not making these mistakes. In this organizations case, the way they handle foreign prospects, and the way they handle the prospect pool is horrendous. Their asset management is one of, if not the worse in the league. It is easy to flaunt all the good stuff, but it is correctly the bad stuff that makes the team better.

BSH has a good read on our current prospect pool.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...tening-results

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06-06-2011, 03:07 PM
  #356
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I thought Meltzer kind of summed things up pretty fairly with respect to Eriksson...I'm not as annoyed about it given the circumstances although not an ideal situation given that we need as many potential prospects in net as possible.

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06-06-2011, 03:34 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Vikke View Post
No, but you're defending that they let him go. I've seen him. Plenty of my friends have seen him a lot these past two seasons.

Plus, it's never a bad thing to actually have prospects. Look at the goalie pipeline in Nashville for example. They have Rinne (28), Lindbäck (23), Dekanich (25), Pickard (21).
That's depth. The Flyers have none of it. Bobrovsky doesn't equal depth. Neither does Hovinen, who really has proven nothing to make the claim to be a better prospect than Ericsson.
Okay, you've seen him play. So you have some perspective. Yes, I am defending that they let him go based on the comments made by Paul Holmgren, and I also took into account the commentary from Bill Meltzer who is well informed on the European Hockey scene. I have no problem with the decision the Flyers made, based on the reasoning given.

No the Flyers don't have the depth that Nashville has as far as Goalie prospects are concerned. And by all reports, signing Ericksson wouldn't have changed that.

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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
But see, this is EXACTLY what we are saying. You are missing most of our points. I and some others HAVE talked to people that either watched them as much as the organization/more (or in some cases our Swedish posters HAVE watched him). Does what they say, since they seen as much as the Flyers prospects as the Flyers scouts have, give them more authority in classifying this as a mistake than not a mistake?

Of course they make mistakes, everyone does. But when you constantly make mistakes, especially in the same department, you need to find a way to improve not making these mistakes. In this organizations case, the way they handle foreign prospects, and the way they handle the prospect pool is horrendous. Their asset management is one of, if not the worse in the league. It is easy to flaunt all the good stuff, but it is correctly the bad stuff that makes the team better.

BSH has a good read on our current prospect pool.

http://www.broadstreethockey.com/201...tening-results
I've read a bunch of commentary on this subject from bloggers and the like, and they all seem to have one thing in common. They're judging the move from a distance. One analysts comments I have full trust in is Bill Meltzer's. And he doesn't see a big issue with the move. And he is well informed on the European Hockey scene.


The Flyers don't constantly make mistakes. The biggest reason the Flyers have one of the lowest ranked prospect pools is due to trading away first round pick in order to try and win now. I don't have a big problem with that.

The article you posted is commentary after the facts are known about player moves. When they have the information to make a credible criticism. If and when Ericksson becomes a good NHL goaltender, then criticism of the move will be valid and justified. Until then, it's just speculation.

And I don't see what makes the results so frightening. I guess the author is expecting the Flyers to have drafted a bunch of NHL players with 3rd round picks or later.


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Originally Posted by DrDoom View Post
I thought Meltzer kind of summed things up pretty fairly with respect to Eriksson...I'm not as annoyed about it given the circumstances although not an ideal situation given that we need as many potential prospects in net as possible.
Absolutely. Meltzer's commentary and the reasoning given by Holmgren, make it totally understandable why they did what they did.

Just because you have a lack of quality prospects, doesn't mean you sign a player to a 3 year EL deal and waste resources developing him, if you feel he isn't worth signing.


Last edited by VanSciver: 06-06-2011 at 04:39 PM. Reason: Multi quote
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06-06-2011, 03:48 PM
  #358
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Agreed, but something is going to happen. It's in the air. Just what it is going to be is hard to say. Whether it involves Carter is also hard to say.

There was a rumour on the O&B board about Columbus talking to the Flyers about Carter. No details, just that it would happen at the draft.

Bryzgalov is going to want to get paid. Per Eklund today, he wants a boatload full of cash.

Since we can't go much higher than $6M per year on the cap, we'll have to compete vs. other teams by offering more term.....I don't necessarily agree, just speculating.
Yeah, that's part of the reason I want to go for Vokoun more than Bryz. He'll probably want less money (still a lot more than our goalies get now) and less years on the deal, so it'd probably work out better. Bryz seems like a good fit for Tampa actually, depending on whether they resign Roloson or not and how big of a contract Stamkos gets.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens this summer.

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06-06-2011, 03:57 PM
  #359
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Yeah, that's part of the reason I want to go for Vokoun more than Bryz. He'll probably want less money (still a lot more than our goalies get now) and less years on the deal, so it'd probably work out better. Bryz seems like a good fit for Tampa actually, depending on whether they resign Roloson or not and how big of a contract Stamkos gets.

It'll definitely be interesting to see what happens this summer.
One thing to keep in mind quite honestly is how much push from Snider Holmgren is getting to solve the goaltending situation or at least make a legit pitch to do so. I think like all of us he's tired of this situation and said as much in his offseason interview. Holmgren may have marching orders to some extent so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he "overpays' and goes after Bryzgalov. I really think this move for a goaltender will make or break Holmgren b/c the stakes are high. He's going to have to walk a tightrope without a net and make a somewhat high stakes move. It should be interesting. One thing you can't fault Holmgren at is that he does make high stakes moves when pressed..just that he's not necessarily always smart about them. I think apart from his initial year or so.... he's squandered a lot unecessarily and not utilized proper leverage...

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06-06-2011, 04:06 PM
  #360
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One thing to keep in mind quite honestly is how much push from Snider Holmgren is getting to solve the goaltending situation or at least make a legit pitch to do so. I think like all of us he's tired of this situation and said as much in his offseason interview. Holmgren may have marching orders to some extent so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that he "overpays' and goes after Bryzgalov. I really think this move for a goaltender will make or break Holmgren b/c the stakes are high. He's going to have to walk a tightrope without a net and make a somewhat high stakes move. It should be interesting. One thing you can't fault Holmgren at is that he does make high stakes moves when pressed..just that he's not necessarily always smart about them. I think apart from his initial year or so.... he's squandered a lot unecessarily and not utilized proper leverage...
Yeah, that's what I'm afraid of. There's fixing a problem, and there's overreacting to a problem. I'm hoping Snider has told Holmgren to make sure the former and has discouraged the latter.

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06-06-2011, 04:19 PM
  #361
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But see, this is EXACTLY what we are saying. You are missing most of our points. I and some others HAVE talked to people that either watched them as much as the organization/more (or in some cases our Swedish posters HAVE watched him). Does what they say, since they seen as much as the Flyers prospects as the Flyers scouts have, give them more authority in classifying this as a mistake than not a mistake?
Of course not. They are just Swedish wannabes like you.

Since you're all about the evidence, I'd love to see the evidence that any of your Swedish friends have seen Eriksson play in person - which is the ONLY way to truly scout a player, as a pro would tell you, along with meeting him and his family, etc. - more than the Flyers' scouts?

Do you actually know how many times or how many Flyer scouts saw Eriksson play this year? Didn't think so, which means you have NO idea what you're talking about.

Do you actually believe that you or your Swedish buddies watching games on TV or their computer monitors is actually the equivalent of professionally trained scouts watching the players in person, interviewing them, talking to their coaches and teammates, making recommendations and then sending their colleagues to do cross checking?

Go to the Flyers' site, there are a couple good articles on there about how real, actual, professional scouts prepare for the draft and combine, organize their scouting, cross check their lists, build consensus, etc.

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06-06-2011, 04:28 PM
  #362
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People act like Homer had no care about losing Eriksson. Homer's decisions regarding trading draft picks and how he treats prospects doesn't take place in a vacuum. He has a finite contracts available and he has an owner that is full throttle about winning a cup.

If you talk to people that run teams you will see that they have a long and short term schedules. They may have made a judgement to go all out in a specified number of years based on contract lengths and the age of certain players.

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06-06-2011, 04:30 PM
  #363
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Under Homer didn't the Flyers become one of a few teams to have a scout specifically designated to scout goalies only (Neil Little).

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06-06-2011, 05:04 PM
  #364
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Let me pose this question to those of you who are doom and gloom on this subject: If Homer would have let go, a different player for the same reasons would this be a problem? Or is it only because he was the "#1" prospect the team had? Or, in the alternative, if he had signed an unknown player because he thought he had NHL potential would everyone be saying how stupid it was to sign him if you haven't heard of him?

I honestly am having trouble comprehending why everyone is freaking over this. Do you really, actually think that because you have read a few articles and seen him play a couple times and seen clips of him that you know his NHL potential as compared to Hovinen or any other prospect? Do you actually think that you know better than the Flyers organization? I mean, I know that they are not perfect, but come on. Do you really think that you saw something in Eriksson in the few games that you have seen and articles that you have read that Homer & Co. missed?

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06-06-2011, 05:06 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Let me pose this question to those of you who are doom and gloom on this subject: If Homer would have let go, a different player for the same reasons would this be a problem? Or is it only because he was the "#1" prospect the team had? Or, in the alternative, if he had signed an unknown player because he thought he had NHL potential would everyone be saying how stupid it was to sign him if you haven't heard of him?

I honestly am having trouble comprehending why everyone is freaking over this. Do you really, actually think that because you have read a few articles and seen him play a couple times and seen clips of him that you know his NHL potential as compared to Hovinen or any other prospect? Do you actually think that you know better than the Flyers organization? I mean, I know that they are not perfect, but come on. Do you really think that you saw something in Eriksson in the few games that you have seen and articles that you have read that Homer & Co. missed?
Apparently, many here do think they know better than Homer & Co.

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06-06-2011, 05:10 PM
  #366
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Apparently, many here do think they know better than Homer & Co.
In some cases, it's been proven we DO know more. Pronger's 35+ contract is one of many examples.
I don't see what's so crazy about that. Do you honestly believe that just because Homer is the GM, he can't do a single mistake?

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06-06-2011, 05:13 PM
  #367
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In some cases, it's been proven we DO know more. Pronger's 35+ contract is one of many examples.
I don't see what's so crazy about that. Do you honestly believe that just because Homer is the GM, he can't do a single mistake?
I don't recall stating that Holmgren or any other person involved in player decisions on the Flyers, is infallible.

How did you or "we" know that he made a mistake on Pronger's 35+ contract?

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06-06-2011, 05:19 PM
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I don't recall stating that Holmgren or any other person involved in player decisions on the Flyers, is infallible.

How did you or "we" know that he made a mistake on Pronger's 35+ contract?
Gee, I dunno, I seem to recall that it was very obvious, and pretty much everyone with me, including media etc. Go figure.

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06-06-2011, 05:27 PM
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Gee, I dunno, I seem to recall that it was very obvious, and pretty much everyone with me, including media etc. Go figure.
I'll answer the question for you then. You and the others knew, because you could look it up in the CBA, or read what a reporter or poster wrote on it that based on when a player was born and turned 35, either before or after June 1, I beleive it is. Is what determines if it's a 35+ contract or not.

Show me where you can read or look up, or whatever, that states infallibly, without any question or doubt whatsoever, that the Flyers walking away from Ericksson was a mistake?

The two situations are completely different. One is cut and dry and provable. The other isn't. There was a factual basis to criticize Holmgren on the Pronger 35+ situation. There isn't on the Ericksson situation.


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06-06-2011, 06:54 PM
  #370
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Guys was curious if you could tell me if he is draft eligible or not ? Please n thank you

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06-06-2011, 07:06 PM
  #371
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Guys was curious if you could tell me if he is draft eligible or not ? Please n thank you
Yes, he can be drafted.

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06-06-2011, 07:53 PM
  #372
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No, but you're defending that they let him go. I've seen him. Plenty of my friends have seen him a lot these past two seasons.

Plus, it's never a bad thing to actually have prospects. Look at the goalie pipeline in Nashville for example. They have Rinne (28), Lindbäck (23), Dekanich (25), Pickard (21).
That's depth. The Flyers have none of it. Bobrovsky doesn't equal depth. Neither does Hovinen, who really has proven nothing to make the claim to be a better prospect than Ericsson.

So keeping a guy who most likely will never play in the NHL is a good move? Prospect is one thing but dead weight is another. Cut bait and move on. Jeez

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06-06-2011, 08:05 PM
  #373
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So keeping a guy who most likely will never play in the NHL is a good move?
Prospect is one thing but dead weight is another. Cut bait and move on. Jeez
No, that's a bad move, presuming you know he's never going to play in the NHL. We don't know anything even close to that about Eriksson.

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06-06-2011, 08:10 PM
  #374
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So keeping a guy who most likely will never play in the NHL is a good move? Prospect is one thing but dead weight is another. Cut bait and move on. Jeez
No, but that's not the case here.
This isn't Dale Hunt who tore up the world before the WHL draft and went bust and not even NHL drafted.

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06-06-2011, 08:19 PM
  #375
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No, that's a bad move, presuming you know he's never going to play in the NHL. We don't know anything even close to that about Eriksson.
But you also don't know if he WILL ever play a game in the NHL. Put yourself in the GM's shoes (not just Homer's, but anyone's):

SCOUT: Look, man, this seventh round pick who is playing backup in Europe isn't really what we had hoped for.

GM: How so?

SCOUT: Well he just isn't developing the way we want and we don't think he is going to be an NHL player.

GM: Screw you, let's give him a three year deal and hope for the best and not use those assets to sign a guy that we think is better.

If you are a GM and your scouts tell you a player is not worth signing, you are going to listen. Especially when they offer up an alternative that they feel has a better shot at making it (which I have been presuming Hovinen is, at this point anyway). You aren't going to say, "Well I read some articles and saw his clips on YouTube and some guys on HFBoards really liked him so I am going to ignore my scouts and sign him anyway."

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