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Flyers Lose Joacim Eriksson's Rights

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Old
06-06-2011, 08:29 PM
  #376
VanSciver
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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But you also don't know if he WILL ever play a game in the NHL. Put yourself in the GM's shoes (not just Homer's, but anyone's):

SCOUT: Look, man, this seventh round pick who is playing backup in Europe isn't really what we had hoped for.

GM: How so?

SCOUT: Well he just isn't developing the way we want and we don't think he is going to be an NHL player.

GM: Screw you, let's give him a three year deal and hope for the best and not use those assets to sign a guy that we think is better.

If you are a GM and your scouts tell you a player is not worth signing, you are going to listen. Especially when they offer up an alternative that they feel has a better shot at making it (which I have been presuming Hovinen is, at this point anyway). You aren't going to say, "Well I read some articles and saw his clips on YouTube and some guys on HFBoards really liked him so I am going to ignore my scouts and sign him anyway."
People want to criticize Holmgren for not signing their "top prospect". He's apparently a top prospect just because his name sits on top of some lists on the internet.

You know what really would of been incompetent on Holmgren's part? Signing a player to a 3 year Entry level deal, when the team has a limited number of contract spaces available, when the player hasn't shown he's worthy of that contract. That would be irresponsible. But they complain that the Flyers prospect pool is poor. Signing a player to a contract that shows no signs of being even close to an NHL player, isn't how you fix that problem.

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06-06-2011, 08:42 PM
  #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
But you also don't know if he WILL ever play a game in the NHL. Put yourself in the GM's shoes (not just Homer's, but anyone's):

SCOUT: Look, man, this seventh round pick who is playing backup in Europe isn't really what we had hoped for.

GM: How so?

SCOUT: Well he just isn't developing the way we want and we don't think he is going to be an NHL player.

GM: Screw you, let's give him a three year deal and hope for the best and not use those assets to sign a guy that we think is better.

If you are a GM and your scouts tell you a player is not worth signing, you are going to listen. Especially when they offer up an alternative that they feel has a better shot at making it (which I have been presuming Hovinen is, at this point anyway). You aren't going to say, "Well I read some articles and saw his clips on YouTube and some guys on HFBoards really liked him so I am going to ignore my scouts and sign him anyway."

You're explaining this to me (nothing that hasn't been said already) and I'm not even in this debate aside from pointing out that hockeypete is pretending to know things he doesn't. I'm okay with Holmgren not getting attached to junk prospects just because they're the best of our junk.

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06-06-2011, 09:48 PM
  #378
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I don't see this as a big deal. The only reason he's our top prospect is because our prospects are awful. If a prospect of his 'quality' were not signed by most other teams no one would bat an eyelash. I wouldn't be surprised if he never plays in the NHL. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if he never plays in North America.

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06-06-2011, 09:50 PM
  #379
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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
I don't see this as a big deal. The only reason he's our top prospect is because our prospects are awful.
Sadly you have a good point....

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06-06-2011, 10:31 PM
  #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
People want to criticize Holmgren for not signing their "top prospect". He's apparently a top prospect just because his name sits on top of some lists on the internet.

You know what really would of been incompetent on Holmgren's part? Signing a player to a 3 year Entry level deal, when the team has a limited number of contract spaces available, when the player hasn't shown he's worthy of that contract. That would be irresponsible. But they complain that the Flyers prospect pool is poor. Signing a player to a contract that shows no signs of being even close to an NHL player, isn't how you fix that problem.
But signing guys who arent even playing in the AHL but the ECHL is a good thing? Oh and SEL >> ECHL before you say anything.

Oh and you werent here a few years ago. Some of us liked him/watched him wayyy before he had his name on the scrolling bar up top.

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06-06-2011, 10:32 PM
  #381
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Originally Posted by whatthef View Post
I don't see this as a big deal. The only reason he's our top prospect is because our prospects are awful. If a prospect of his 'quality' were not signed by most other teams no one would bat an eyelash. I wouldn't be surprised if he never plays in the NHL. In fact I wouldn't be shocked if he never plays in North America.
As in he isnt good enough or cause he wants to stay in Sweden? Because the last few seasons, he wanted to come over, so him not wanting to come to NA isnt the problem.

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06-07-2011, 06:13 AM
  #382
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As in he isnt good enough or cause he wants to stay in Sweden? Because the last few seasons, he wanted to come over, so him not wanting to come to NA isnt the problem.
As in he isn't good enough YET. He might be good enough in a few years if he gets his game together, earns a starting role and develops.

Whether he wants to come over is irrelevant. I want to be King of Sweden, but when I wrote to ask for the job, they said they weren't interested right now.

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06-07-2011, 06:41 AM
  #383
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
But signing guys who arent even playing in the AHL but the ECHL is a good thing? Oh and SEL >> ECHL before you say anything.

Oh and you werent here a few years ago. Some of us liked him/watched him wayyy before he had his name on the scrolling bar up top.
Name some specific players. And you like him based on what? How many times did you watch him play?

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06-07-2011, 07:39 AM
  #384
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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post
But signing guys who arent even playing in the AHL but the ECHL is a good thing? Oh and SEL >> ECHL before you say anything.
Where a guy plays before the NHL isn't really a big deal. If a guy has NHL caliber potential he can be playing in a beer league it Buffalo for all I care. But if he's a backup up the ECHL or SEL or anywhere else, I'm not going to lose my **** when the org says he isn't developing and he isn't worth a contract. Just like I wouldn't freak if they signed an ECHL guy who they thought was developing nicely and had NHL potential. If Homer said, "look, Eriksson is a sure fire future #1, but we're not interested." Then I would be pissed. But if they don't think he has what it takes, I'll trust them because I haven't seen half as many of his games as the have and I don't know half as much about what it takes to be an NHLer.

I know most of you are smarter than the pro scouts and the only reason you are not employed by an NHL team is because it just wouldn't be fair to the other teams, but when it comes to scouting young players, I will defer to the organization (who have been pretty good in that department lately).

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06-07-2011, 08:09 AM
  #385
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I'm torn on this situation.

On the one hand, we've traded away so many picks that we have an awful farm system, so it seems counterproductive to then let go of someone regarded as one of your top prospects. Its even more annoying considering our goalie situation.

On the other hand, he's a goalie and you never know what a young goalie is going to be until he plays in the NHL. Furthermore, if this was a couple years ago when our prospect pool consisted of Downie, Giroux, JvR, Parent etc, no one would even care. I mean just because he is one of our top prospects doesn't mean he actually is a top prospect.

You can't really call this a good/bad move until we find out what the kid becomes, but as for now I can see the reasoning behind letting him walk.

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06-07-2011, 10:43 AM
  #386
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Originally Posted by Protest View Post
I'm torn on this situation.

On the one hand, we've traded away so many picks that we have an awful farm system, so it seems counterproductive to then let go of someone regarded as one of your top prospects. Its even more annoying considering our goalie situation.

On the other hand, he's a goalie and you never know what a young goalie is going to be until he plays in the NHL. Furthermore, if this was a couple years ago when our prospect pool consisted of Downie, Giroux, JvR, Parent etc, no one would even care. I mean just because he is one of our top prospects doesn't mean he actually is a top prospect.

You can't really call this a good/bad move until we find out what the kid becomes, but as for now I can see the reasoning behind letting him walk.
The main thing that has changed, from last year to this, is that Swedish players now come under the 2 year rule, whereas before we held their rights indefinitely.

In the past, holding his rights was not an issue, same with guys like Kovar or Popov.

Now, we have to decide in two years, the same as with NA players.

It means teams, ALL TEAMS, have to make the same decisions on Euros as they did before for NA kids.

In the end, it's good for the Flyers - in fact it's great news. We can outbid other teams with restricted budgets on kids like Read ($900K x 3 years) because the team can afford, if necessary, to pay him that money in the AHL. He might be buying beers for the next three years for all the Phantoms on ELCs...

The same applies to guys like Hovinen. The Flyers can afford to outbid poorer teams on any UFAs from Europe now - which will actually broaden the pool of players we might want to sign. In the past, teams could hold onto their rights indefinitely, so we'd have to trade for them.

I'm done with talking about Eriksson - he's yesterday's nobody until he starts playing like an NHL prospect again.

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06-07-2011, 10:53 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
The main thing that has changed, from last year to this, is that Swedish players now come under the 2 year rule, whereas before we held their rights indefinitely.

In the past, holding his rights was not an issue, same with guys like Kovar or Popov.

Now, we have to decide in two years, the same as with NA players.

It means teams, ALL TEAMS, have to make the same decisions on Euros as they did before for NA kids.

In the end, it's good for the Flyers - in fact it's great news. We can outbid other teams with restricted budgets on kids like Read ($900K x 3 years) because the team can afford, if necessary, to pay him that money in the AHL. He might be buying beers for the next three years for all the Phantoms on ELCs...

The same applies to guys like Hovinen. The Flyers can afford to outbid poorer teams on any UFAs from Europe now - which will actually broaden the pool of players we might want to sign. In the past, teams could hold onto their rights indefinitely, so we'd have to trade for them.

I'm done with talking about Eriksson - he's yesterday's nobody until he starts playing like an NHL prospect again.
You realize Read isn't making 900K in the AHL, right?

Pretty much every team can afford those types of contracts. The only potential problems are the huge bonus ones, and potential cap problems they can cause.

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06-07-2011, 11:07 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
People want to criticize Holmgren for not signing their "top prospect". He's apparently a top prospect just because his name sits on top of some lists on the internet.

You know what really would of been incompetent on Holmgren's part? Signing a player to a 3 year Entry level deal, when the team has a limited number of contract spaces available, when the player hasn't shown he's worthy of that contract. That would be irresponsible. But they complain that the Flyers prospect pool is poor. Signing a player to a contract that shows no signs of being even close to an NHL player, isn't how you fix that problem.
Well, I'm sure glad we don't have any of those then. Except, we actually we actually have a bunch, almost all of whom haven't shown the promise that Erickson has. They are only limited on contracts because the Flyers have mismanaged their farm system. They have given out more contracts then any other team in the league. Right now the Flyers are the only team that even needs to worry about hitting the contract limit. But apparently we can't question how the Flyers deal with prospects. They are professionals after all.

Again, this debate is pointless when one side uses the fact that the Flyers didn't sign Ericksson as justification for the Flyers not signing him... I'll have to remember this logic for future debates.

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06-07-2011, 11:19 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Larry44 View Post
As in he isn't good enough YET. He might be good enough in a few years if he gets his game together, earns a starting role and develops.

Whether he wants to come over is irrelevant. I want to be King of Sweden, but when I wrote to ask for the job, they said they weren't interested right now.
SEL >> ECHL. Some of those goalies in the ECHL are terrible. Eriksson could EASILY play in the ECHL and he went on record on saying he didnt have to play in the NHL right away. Im not finding the link. Look up the many articles euroflyers has of him.

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Originally Posted by VanSciver View Post
Name some specific players. And you like him based on what? How many times did you watch him play?
Alright sounds good. I have watched the phantoms ALOT more than you have some I'll throw some names down. Andrew Rowe for one. Shane Harper is another. Stefan Legein is gone. Klotz is gone.

Here is a list: http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=24

Right now currently, we have Bobrovsky, Leighton, Backlund and Hoivnen. Hoivenen is staying over in Finland. We only have 4 goalies in the entire organization (5 including Kovar). Two of them are AHL fodder.

I already told you and Larry this about 500 times. I have not watched him personally. BUT I have talked to scouts and writers who have, including a good friend of mine who has been watching Eriksson before he was even drafted. I choose to believe what they have to say over an organization who doesn't have a great record of handling goalies for over 15 years.

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Originally Posted by DrinkFightFlyers View Post
Where a guy plays before the NHL isn't really a big deal. If a guy has NHL caliber potential he can be playing in a beer league it Buffalo for all I care. But if he's a backup up the ECHL or SEL or anywhere else, I'm not going to lose my **** when the org says he isn't developing and he isn't worth a contract. Just like I wouldn't freak if they signed an ECHL guy who they thought was developing nicely and had NHL potential. If Homer said, "look, Eriksson is a sure fire future #1, but we're not interested." Then I would be pissed. But if they don't think he has what it takes, I'll trust them because I haven't seen half as many of his games as the have and I don't know half as much about what it takes to be an NHLer.

I know most of you are smarter than the pro scouts and the only reason you are not employed by an NHL team is because it just wouldn't be fair to the other teams, but when it comes to scouting young players, I will defer to the organization (who have been pretty good in that department lately).
It seems like this is the only argument you guys can fall back on. So because they have the professional name, we should sit back like good little fans, our tail between our legs and listen obediently to what they say? Sorry, not going to do that. I have learned from experience that just because they have a title, doesn't mean they know more.

You trust an organization who drafts and trains goalies terribly. They are one of the worse in the league. If you are alright with that, then I am fine with your decision.

Im actually really not arguing about Eriksson anymore it seems. It's more that, I should just shut up and listen and beleive to all that they say. That's what I disagree on. Like I first posted in the prospect thread. I am not surprised they did this. The Flyers dont really like taking Euro players and don't want to wait more than two years for them to develop, especially goalies. That's fine, just in the future, draft every player from NA. Will make things alot easier.

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06-07-2011, 11:22 AM
  #390
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You realize Read isn't making 900K in the AHL, right?

Pretty much every team can afford those types of contracts. The only potential problems are the huge bonus ones, and potential cap problems they can cause.
Do you realize that you are incorrect? Read signed a one way deal. His NHL and AHL salary are the same. 800k in 11/12, 900K in 12/13, and 1M in 13/14 for a Cap hit of 900K. The only bonuses in Read's deal are signing bonuses which will have no effect on the Cap.

Maybe some research would have been in order here?

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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
Well, I'm sure glad we don't have any of those then. Except, we actually we actually have a bunch, almost all of whom haven't shown the promise that Erickson has. They are only limited on contracts because the Flyers have mismanaged their farm system. They have given out more contracts then any other team in the league. Right now the Flyers are the only team that even needs to worry about hitting the contract limit. But apparently we can't question how the Flyers deal with prospects. They are professionals after all.

Again, this debate is pointless when one side uses the fact that the Flyers didn't sign Ericksson as justification for the Flyers not signing him... I'll have to remember this logic for future debates.
Show me some proof of the Flyers giving out more contracts than any other team in the League. Are you familair with the 50 player reserve list?

You should remember that logic. Because it's simple common sense, and it's really based on more than that though. Or you you could stick with what you opinion is based on. Pure unsubstantiated speculation based on outdated lists on the internet.

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06-07-2011, 11:33 AM
  #391
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Show me some proof of the Flyers giving out more contracts than any other team in the League. Are you familair with the 50 player reserve list?
# of players under contract as of today:

Flyers: 41
Wild: 37
Red Wings: 36
Stars: 36
Bruins: 35
Sharks: 35
Oilers: 35
Ducks: 34
Senators: 34
Predators: 34
Kings: 33
Penguins: 33
Flames: 33
Blackhawks: 33
Maple Leafs: 33
Islanders: 32
Devils: 32
Capitals: 32
Canucks: 32
Rangers: 32
Coyotes: 31
Thrashers: 30
Blues: 29
Canadiens: 29
Blue Jackets: 28
Hurricans: 27
Panthers: 27
Sabres: 26
Avalanche: 25
Lightning: 24

Edit: this is for the 2011-12 season.


Last edited by Coppy: 06-07-2011 at 12:07 PM.
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06-07-2011, 11:48 AM
  #392
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# of players under contract as of today:

Flyers: 41
Wild: 37
Red Wings: 36
Stars: 36
Bruins: 35
Sharks: 35
Oilers: 35
Ducks: 34
Senators: 34
Predators: 34
Kings: 33
Penguins: 33
Flames: 33
Blackhawks: 33
Maple Leafs: 33
Islanders: 32
Devils: 32
Capitals: 32
Canucks: 32
Rangers: 32
Coyotes: 31
Thrashers: 30
Blues: 29
Canadiens: 29
Blue Jackets: 28
Hurricans: 27
Panthers: 27
Sabres: 26
Avalanche: 25
Lightning: 24
Holy crap. I'm amazed the Lightning can even field a team.

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06-07-2011, 11:51 AM
  #393
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Alright sounds good. I have watched the phantoms ALOT more than you have some I'll throw some names down. Andrew Rowe for one. Shane Harper is another. Stefan Legein is gone. Klotz is gone.

Here is a list: http://capgeek.com/charts.php?Team=24

Right now currently, we have Bobrovsky, Leighton, Backlund and Hoivnen. Hoivenen is staying over in Finland. We only have 4 goalies in the entire organization (5 including Kovar). Two of them are AHL fodder.

I already told you and Larry this about 500 times. I have not watched him personally. BUT I have talked to scouts and writers who have, including a good friend of mine who has been watching Eriksson before he was even drafted. I choose to believe what they have to say over an organization who doesn't have a great record of handling goalies for over 15 years.
Do you know me personally? Because if you don't how could you possibly know that you watch the Phantoms a lot more than I do? LOL

There isn't a team or GM in the League that is perfect with all of it's choices of players. It's not an exact science.

You could tell us 501 times, it isn't going to change. The fact still remains that there are no facts to support that the Flyers made a bad decision here, just as there aren't any to prove that they made the correct decision. So I'm not going to criticize them on the move when there is no legitimate reason to.

It's you choice, you can reference unamed sources and choose to beleive them over what the professional NHL execs beleive. They may be right, they may be wrong.


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Originally Posted by sa cyred View Post

It seems like this is the only argument you guys can fall back on. So because they have the professional name, we should sit back like good little fans, our tail between our legs and listen obediently to what they say? Sorry, not going to do that. I have learned from experience that just because they have a title, doesn't mean they know more.

You trust an organization who drafts and trains goalies terribly. They are one of the worse in the league. If you are alright with that, then I am fine with your decision.

Im actually really not arguing about Eriksson anymore it seems. It's more that, I should just shut up and listen and beleive to all that they say. That's what I disagree on. Like I first posted in the prospect thread. I am not surprised they did this. The Flyers dont really like taking Euro players and don't want to wait more than two years for them to develop, especially goalies. That's fine, just in the future, draft every player from NA. Will make things alot easier.
It has nothing to do with beleiving in them because they have the professional titles. It's about not knowing for a fact that they made a mistake here. The have given reasonable reasons for the decision they made. How can you criticize someone for making a mistake when you don't know if they made a mistake? That's all that's really being said.

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Originally Posted by Coppy View Post
# of players under contract as of today:

Flyers: 41
Wild: 37
Red Wings: 36
Stars: 36
Bruins: 35
Sharks: 35
Oilers: 35
Ducks: 34
Senators: 34
Predators: 34
Kings: 33
Penguins: 33
Flames: 33
Blackhawks: 33
Maple Leafs: 33
Islanders: 32
Devils: 32
Capitals: 32
Canucks: 32
Rangers: 32
Coyotes: 31
Thrashers: 30
Blues: 29
Canadiens: 29
Blue Jackets: 28
Hurricans: 27
Panthers: 27
Sabres: 26
Avalanche: 25
Lightning: 24
Where did you get that list from?

Capgeek reserve lists is considerably different.

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06-07-2011, 11:55 AM
  #394
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Holy crap. I'm amazed the Lightning can even field a team.
including their RFAs TB has almost 21 million coming off the books.

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06-07-2011, 12:06 PM
  #395
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Where did you get that list from?

Capgeek reserve lists is considerably different.
From Capgeek. For the 2011-12 season.

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06-07-2011, 12:15 PM
  #396
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TBs UFA and RFA list

http://www.nhlnumbers.com/free_agent...der=&year=2012

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06-07-2011, 12:18 PM
  #397
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UFA - Zherdev, Leino, O'Donnell, Boynton, Boucher, Ryan, Clackson

RFA - Carcillo, Nodl, Powe, Bordson, Kalinski, Legein, Klotz, Stewart, Syvret, Sestito

We are at 40 contracts for 2011-12. I'm not sure where you got 41.

Anyway, out of our 17 free agents, can you see even 10 being re-signed?

Two of Nodl, Carcillo, and Powe max.

Sestito.

Maybe one of Leino or O'Donnell.

A goalie (if we don't trade a roster player for one.)

That puts us at maybe 45 for 2011-12.

No way we will be close to 50.

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06-07-2011, 12:29 PM
  #398
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UFA - Zherdev, Leino, O'Donnell, Boynton, Boucher, Ryan, Clackson

RFA - Carcillo, Nodl, Powe, Bordson, Kalinski, Legein, Klotz, Stewart, Syvret, Sestito

We are at 40 contracts for 2011-12. I'm not sure where you got 41.

Anyway, out of our 17 free agents, can you see even 10 being re-signed?

Two of Nodl, Carcillo, and Powe max.

Sestito.

Maybe one of Leino or O'Donnell.

A goalie (if we don't trade a roster player for one.)

That puts us at maybe 45 for 2011-12.

No way we will be close to 50.
You're right, it is 40. I had to hand count these. But i brought it up in response to others saying the Flyers are in danger of hitting the contract limit and because of that Eriksson wasn't worthy of a contract. If they are in danger, then it is because they have given out contracts to players with less potential than Eriksson.

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06-07-2011, 12:37 PM
  #399
GoneFullHextall
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Shafer View Post
UFA - Zherdev, Leino, O'Donnell, Boynton, Boucher, Ryan, Clackson

RFA - Carcillo, Nodl, Powe, Bordson, Kalinski, Legein, Klotz, Stewart, Syvret, Sestito

We are at 40 contracts for 2011-12. I'm not sure where you got 41.

Anyway, out of our 17 free agents, can you see even 10 being re-signed?

Two of Nodl, Carcillo, and Powe max.

Sestito.

Maybe one of Leino or O'Donnell.

A goalie (if we don't trade a roster player for one.)

That puts us at maybe 45 for 2011-12.

No way we will be close to 50.
I think we could see a junior or college FA signing or 2 to bump it up.
I think all those UFAs could be gone. Unless we go the Boucher and whoever we sign out of FA route. Leighton waived(which I am in favor of), and Bobrovsky sent to the AHL((something I dont like)
I think Carcillo and one of Nodl or Powe are gone. Sestito will be brought back. The rest outside of Syvret? meh whatever.

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06-07-2011, 12:53 PM
  #400
CS
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Well keep in mind that we only have 3 goalies under contract for next year...

Riopel is gone. Morrison is gone. Phillips is a non-prospect and will be gone. De Serres is long gone.

Eriksson is gone.

Stewart won't likely get re-signed. With our offseason itinerary being to acquire a legit number one, I assume Boucher is out as well.

So we have three goalies locked up for next season at the moment, and they are Bobrovsky, Leighton, and Backlund.

And our goaltending prospect pool now consists of Hovinen (who will be journeying to the AHL the year after next) and Kovar.

That's five goalies owned by the Flyers, and I swear to god if we sign Kovar after losing Eriksson I'm going to rage.

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