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Now that we have Erixon, 2 more D deals...

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Old
06-06-2011, 01:48 PM
  #76
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Old
06-06-2011, 01:55 PM
  #77
bernmeister
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Originally Posted by jas View Post
Isn't there a fantasy thread for this stuff? I have no one to blame but myself for opening a thread that proposes trading for Hedman and Doughty, when neither team has given any indication for moving either player, especially when both players are under control for at least another four years by their respective teams.
Bold: not a prerequisite to deal, and TB is hot to extend Stamkos, which by extension means creating cap space, which could mean moving Hedman.

Did I hear somewhere they are looking to extend Doughty? Forgot if he's presently RFA, but not the point.

The package is a King's ransom for Doughty.
It may be gold, copper and silver and not gold, diamonds and platinum, but its enough to be a Kings ransom.

Regardless of what strings are attached, either the Kings want the ransom or want Doughty.

It may seem fantasy, but there is enough basis in reality for blockbusters as these to happen.

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06-06-2011, 01:58 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Punxrocknyc19 View Post
as soon as i read stepan
Agree to disagree.
I like Stepan but you want Doughty and his shot now, something has to give, and unless you are looking at even more untouchables, Stepan has to go.

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06-06-2011, 02:05 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
Come on Bern! We had this discussion earlier in the Trades Board.. Its not a good idea, end of story. .
Did not bring up Doughty prior, nor was this Hedman proposal listed as a thread, but only as a post in response to another thread.
We agree to disagree.

Our issue is with our offense not our defense.
Fs that can solve our problem are not available, thus we MUST think outside the box.

Last year, I suggested trading others and going with our young D.
This was widely rejected, but I was proven to be right.

There are multiple scenarios and it behooves us to look for the optimal combination of moves to create the best strategy.

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06-06-2011, 02:40 PM
  #80
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Even if these trades weren't ludicrous, you still could have built a better lineup with what we would have afterwards (including UFA pickups):

Kreider-Richards-Tanguay/Jokinen
Dubinsky-Anisimov-Callahan
Hagelin-Boyle-Grachev
Fedotenko-Avery-Prust

Staal-Doughty
McD-Hedman
Erixon-Sauer

Lundqvist
Biron

Now, I have no idea if that would fit under the cap, or if it would even be a playoff caliber team, but it's still light years better than the lineup you posted with making the same exact trades. Just trying to help you out a bit

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06-06-2011, 02:47 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Chalfdiggity3 View Post
I said this once, and ill say it again one last time.. Since its already in the Trade Rumours and Free Agents board with the same proposal..

I just dont see it as a win-win at all.. Giving up those players opens up to many holes for us to fill.. While Hedman does NOT fill any of our holes. Hedman has all the raw skill and talent but how many of those type of players never live up to their potential? I do believe Hedman is way overrated, otherwise in the years he has been playing he should have broken the 30pt mark or become better defensively which he has yet to do with either situation. Meanwhile, i cant believe your actually advocating that Hedman possibly be moved to wing. He does NOT have the ability to do so.. thats like moving Gilroy to wing on the rangers. It was a completely failed experiment and just dumb to do. Can you name any players who were defenseman in the league that turned into a forward? I cant..

Yes i believe that Hedman is a better overall player than MDZ but MDZ creates the same offense that Hedman has and even had better numbers than him so far. Then MZA can become a solid 3rd liner which always can be replaced.. But Thomas is the main reason i wouldnt do this deal. I see Thomas as a Zach Parise clone, and is right up there with krieder to be a top line player. You dont trade those types of prospects when your NOT getting a 1st line player in return. Regardless of anything, our need is at forward NOT defense.
I understand that he has the size and skill that cant be taught, i completely agree with you but fact still remains that his offensive game that everyone talked up so much is non existant and no offense but his defensive skills and positioning and all that really hasnt made the progress that everyone has been expecting.. Would i take Hedman over MDZ... sure.. but not at the cost of Thomas sorry.

I think MDZ will be just fine and in his rookie season he had basically TWICE as many pts as Hedman does in his 2 full season.. PLUS Hedman plays for the much more offensively talented team. Showing by his pts totals on the PP, Hedman isnt the answer for our PP woes either.

You can have your opinion on Thomas just like i have my own opinion on him. I think thomas is a special player that has put up GREAT pts while being a good two way player and not playing on a very talented team. I think the kid can be great and would rather take the chance that he will develop with Stepan since they had SICK chemistry together. Rather than trying to beef up our defense more. Our defense is VERY good and VERY young already. If we want a REAL SERIOUS upgrade on defense then wait till next years free agent crop were there will be players that are alil older but much better both ways such as Brent Burns.

MZA i have to disagree with you again, he is not a 4th line player. He is a 3rd line player with upside. The only reason he cooled off was bc he hit the wall like all rookies usually do in their first season. He has alot of talent but at most can be a 2nd line player.

Our issues again, is our offense, the problem of not having an actual 1st line.. We only have one 1st line player in Gaborik, otherwise we are a blue collar team that will work your ass off. What we desperately need is that 1st line talent. If any trades were to be made it should be for a forward not a defenseman. Idk what player i would try to trade for but offering Thomas in a deal is a bad idea. Him and Krieder can be those missing 1st line talents we need. Otherwise i have no problem dealing MDZ, MZA, 15th overall, and Grachev for something special. Maybe that wouldnt get what we need and we would have to add something more but no chance do i trade Krieder or thomas UNLESS we get a 1st line talented FORWARD.
We often agree. In this case we are on completely opposite sides of the issue.

Chal, my pal, you ask
"Hedman has all the raw skill and talent but how many of those type of players never live up to their potential?"

Whatever that number is, let's remember a tested adage in sports. Usually, the good big man beats the good little man.

Hedman could crap out. I don't see it at this point. He is subjugating his offensive game to a team crammed with offense, and is learning the physical and defense aspects of his D position.

As an emergency option, I said Hedman could be another Pavel Bure type IF he was redirected in that area. I meant that in the sense they're both big, skate like the wind, powerful shots. I did not advocate going down that road at this time.

"Hedman does NOT fill any of our holes."
Disagree. Huge hole on power play, and on pinching on the attack.
He would help greatly. Certainly would not hurt..

I agree with you 100% on Kreider.
Thomas and Kreider are not in the same category.
Kreider, barring injury, will be the next Dave Keon.
Thomas is boom bust, 50-50 at best.

Disagree on MZA. If he had the speed then he'd be another Thomas at worst or St. Louis at best. But while I welcome him hanging out here as he improves his game, I'm pessimistic he will become substantial.

I welcome concrete alternative proposals that gets us a substantial F, but don't see that happening. Stastny, etc., all cost too much. This is a good sideways work around, IMO.

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Old
06-06-2011, 02:51 PM
  #82
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Not that LA would do the Doughty offer, but we shouldn't either

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Old
06-06-2011, 02:51 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
I like how people think TB would love MZA to "replace" StM Louis. Just cause they are both small?
St. Louis is fabulous, he's beaten all odds, he's an Yvan Cournouyer today when players across the board are bigger, stronger, faster on average.

MZA is a good stopgap. Has nothing to do with size. Has everything to do with style. Key would be for MZA to pick up that step, if he can.

Only reason to replace St. Louis is we are all getting older.
Some of us, like Gordie Howe and Chris Chelios age more slowly.
But we are all getting older.

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06-06-2011, 02:57 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
Nothing realistic about either of these deals.
,,,.
Disagree.

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06-06-2011, 03:04 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
...
Tampa will not part with Hedman--not for that package. He's going to be the kingpin of their future defense. He's Marc Staal--might even turn out better.
... .
While I disagree with those who say Hedman's been a bust, I wouldn't go so far to say he might be better than Marc Staal. Big gap on shutdown D technique. But will be fabulous across the board.

All I'm saying is, one option TB has is trade #2 overall salary for like 20th overall salary, and they make headway on extending Stamkos.

Can they take other measures to extend Stamkos? Sure.
I'm just saying this is a reasonable option in case they don't like other returns for other assets. (Assuming as is logical and reasonable, they want to overwhelm Stamkos with a max contract now, or at least have the position to do that.)

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06-06-2011, 03:14 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
...
Trading what almost seems like half our roster for Doughty is absurd. Not sure even whether Girardi is included or not. From the listed players--no--but then the OP starts talking about him as if he is. LA does not need one of our goalies not named Lundqvist. They have much more depth at that position than we do and the likes of Kundratek would not be much of an addition to their defensive prospect stable which might be the deepest in the league. In HF's organizational prospect rankings guess which team came in No. 1?
... .
Yes, Girardi is part of that deal, and it was my error to omit there.

"LA does not need one of our goalies not named Lundqvist. They have much more depth at that position than we do ..."

"...and the likes of Kundratek would not be much of an addition to their defensive prospect stable which might be the deepest in the league. "

The fact their D and G is so good makes the case they can more readily withstand loss of Doughty than otherwise.

Obviously, we are not trading them an elite prospect we insist on retaining (Kreider).
We are not trading weaker Fs they don't want. That is respected across the board.

So we are using the currency of strong D + G prospects (+ Gabby + Stepan) for them to add to their own. Then in whatever combo that works for them, let them pare down those ranks with buyers.

The Maple Leafs, the Oilers and others need great prospect help. Trade a Kundratek for a 2nd AND a 4th as prospect. Let them trade Kundratek, and two others like him from LA's camp, for a 1st.

A trade doesn't have to be an immediate exact fit to work; it just has to have enough upside to be worthwhile soon enough.

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Old
06-06-2011, 03:15 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by bernmeister View Post
While I disagree with those who say Hedman's been a bust, I wouldn't go so far to say he might be better than Marc Staal. Big gap on shutdown D technique. But will be fabulous across the board.

All I'm saying is, one option TB has is trade #2 overall salary for like 20th overall salary, and they make headway on extending Stamkos.

Can they take other measures to extend Stamkos? Sure.
I'm just saying this is a reasonable option in case they don't like other returns for other assets. (Assuming as is logical and reasonable, they want to overwhelm Stamkos with a max contract now, or at least have the position to do that.)
you're not getting it. It's NOT a reasonable option. There's 100 things Tampa would/could do before Hedman became available to extend Stamkos. Just calling things reasonable options does not make them reasonable options.

Then talking about moving Hedman to wing (and mentioning Bure) is even more absurd than your other absurdities.

The fact of the matter is you didn't make a lateral move at forward, you put the pack line as our first line and built an AHL-worthy forward core underneath them, and pushed 2/3rds of our 4th line to the 2nd line. Richards is no longer an option in that scenario because he would never sign with a team who was making moves in that direction.


"Outside the box" can still be awful. Not every idea has validity just because it's different than what other people are saying. Just let it go. I don't think I've seen a more misguided plan for this team in all the time i've been reading these boards.

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Old
06-06-2011, 03:24 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by eco's bones View Post
... And losing Gaborik, Stepan decimates our offense. No question about it. The idea that Tommy Grant--a free agent signing fresh out of college might be NHL ready is a real reach. Maybe the OP knows more about him than I do but I'm kind of thinking if he ever does make it it is a few years away.
"And losing Gaborik, Stepan decimates our offense. No question about it."
In an abstract, it looks terrible, but open up to the bigger picture outside the box. It gives us what they call in chess counterplay. We are trimming lots of cap, which is attractive for options as they present themselves. We get help w/Ds pinching, and we get a real power play. Losing Stepan in particular very, very expensive, But Doughty is worth it.

Tommy Grant. Just a hunch, because Brodie Dupont has not sparkled. But you're right, it was a reach. But Grant and Wilson are just fill ins until this year's Fedotenkos come along, unless either shows something and advances. But we're talking replacement to 3rd and 4th line here; we may have to wait and see who's available, but I wouldn't sweat it.

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06-06-2011, 03:25 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Pizza View Post
I've got a head ache from looking at this.
Sorry.
Try looking at it from another angle.

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06-06-2011, 03:27 PM
  #90
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Bern you dont understand the concepts of value, need or reality

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Old
06-06-2011, 03:31 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Staal18 View Post
I'd rather not trade Stepan no reason to trade our youth. Keep building through youth and don't give up on things that work
Fair enough.
But think Doughty, also very, very young is worth it.

Also this is not abandoning building through youth.
This is actually harvesting the assets of youth we have that are in demand --- Ds and Gs ---- in order to trade up overall talent, and get in position to swap for Fs when opportunity presents.

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06-06-2011, 03:35 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Fitzy Duke of NY View Post
Hedman is really not as good as most people seem to think he is.
Think he is a sleeping giant.
His learning D, and his O is subordinated to the rest of the team.
This is the chance to get this guy before his stock peaks.

Since this is the MDZ we have now, with potential, and not the MDZ who showed O but no D, this and Thomas is basically enough...

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06-06-2011, 03:36 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Tube Sock View Post
Too soon to tell only his 2nd season. Expectations and criticisms need to be tempered a bit, a few more years and we'll see how good or bad he really is.
Tell it like it is, let your conscience be your guide.
(lyric that is blast from the past)

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06-06-2011, 03:37 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by BlueCollarBlueBlood View Post
Is that you Neil Smith?
Again, no.

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06-06-2011, 03:41 PM
  #95
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He's 20 and looks pretty damn good to me.

What did Staal, Girardi, etc look like at age 20? And still he had a decent year logging 20-25 minutes.
Bluenote13, you're showing a strong sense of perspective.
Must have been an artist in a prior life.

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06-06-2011, 03:43 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by jexmex View Post
That offense is a complete joke. Grachev Boyle Prust as a 2nd line in the NHL? LOL
Please see prior quotes generally.
No problem w/hardworking trio at 2nd line? Asking them to headline might be a bit much, but they're good enough as a 2.

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06-06-2011, 03:48 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by n8 View Post
Explanation: TB and LA are not trading those players. I DARE you to take this to the trades/rumors board. Just tell them you're an Islanders fan if you do

also, horrible

edit: goodness, you DID take it to the Trade board? What made you think it'd go any better here?
Did not take either yet as a thread, though posted the Hedman as a response in a prior thread.

There is no guarantee TB and LA do this; there is enough basis to reason they would in the case of Hedman, might in the case of Doughty.

I may well take you up on that dare, at some point... but not as an Isles fan. Deal breaker.

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Old
06-06-2011, 03:48 PM
  #98
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Bern your proposals may not be very popular but your rebuttals are grade A.

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Old
06-06-2011, 03:51 PM
  #99
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So Chester has two accounts?

to paraphrase Jackie Gleason: You're a riot, Rangerdanger20...

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06-06-2011, 03:53 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Kel Varnsen View Post
nothing like a fan imagined blockbuster for a good laugh
It is better to laugh in disagreement over these proposals, which arguably have some rationale to them, than cry over our senseless disgrace for a power play, which costs us plenty of wins.

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