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Dean Lombardi On Improving The Team

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Old
06-05-2011, 10:30 PM
  #126
etherialone
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I am stuck in the middle.

I want us to stay static for the next couple of years because I know what's coming to us. We will move Scuds and or WM/Greene while adding either Voynov, Forbort, Deslauriers, Muzzin or Hickey all of which are better then we have been used to having in the pipeline ever. 8 years ago if Hickey was in our pipeline he would still be being harolded as being one of the best PMD's to come along to us in a long time. Now he barely rates.

We have Schenn Toffoli Vey Kozun Holloway Weal and Kitsyn all of which will spend some amount of time in the NHL imo and a few of which should become stars. To back up JQ and JB we have Jones and Berube both of which look like they will be capable NHL goalies if not starters at least potential back ups.

I sort of want us to remain static to see how these kids pan out, especially being added to the team that we will have in place. We should be one of the best in the league.

I also think that we will have a couple of high quality prospects that we can/should deal to fill a couple of needs up front so there is that too.

Like I said, I am sort of stuck.

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06-05-2011, 10:54 PM
  #127
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There are those of us out here who see both sides of the coin too. I love DL as our GM simply because of how loaded we finally are with solid young talent but I hate the way he handled Squid and am not convinced that his overall GM skillset is among the best.

I just think that he is one of the best drafting/building GM's that the game has seen and I played/worked for a Hall Of Famer in Kilrea who clearly though at a different level managed to draft/build championship caliber teams year after year.

DL has been excellent in many ways and not so great in others. Its alright to see things both ways.

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06-06-2011, 12:18 AM
  #128
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Originally Posted by Tonellisghost View Post
I am stuck in the middle.

I want us to stay static for the next couple of years because I know what's coming to us. We will move Scuds and or WM/Greene while adding either Voynov, Forbort, Deslauriers, Muzzin or Hickey all of which are better then we have been used to having in the pipeline ever. 8 years ago if Hickey was in our pipeline he would still be being harolded as being one of the best PMD's to come along to us in a long time. Now he barely rates.

We have Schenn Toffoli Vey Kozun Holloway Weal and Kitsyn all of which will spend some amount of time in the NHL imo and a few of which should become stars. To back up JQ and JB we have Jones and Berube both of which look like they will be capable NHL goalies if not starters at least potential back ups.

I sort of want us to remain static to see how these kids pan out, especially being added to the team that we will have in place. We should be one of the best in the league.

I also think that we will have a couple of high quality prospects that we can/should deal to fill a couple of needs up front so there is that too.

Like I said, I am sort of stuck.
stay static were in year 5 of the rebuild.... when most of those players are able to contribute we will be in year 8

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06-06-2011, 01:08 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
stay static were in year 5 of the rebuild.... when most of those players are able to contribute we will be in year 8
Who's talking about what year of the rebuild we are in?

I said that "I want to stay static for the next couple of years because I know what's coming to us" in regards to the kids that I mentioned in the original post.

I don't remember saying anything about how or where we are after what year of the rebuild we are in?

If you want my opinion on DL's 5 year rebuild or whatever year we are in just ask, I have one.

As far as when most of these kids will be ready its cool with me if your opinion pushes them off for another year or two. I will argue that you are in the most part wrong and that they will be ready before the end of year 7 as a majority but not as a total sum.

Schenn is ready now.

Loktionov is ready now.

Muzzin and Voynov are ready now.

Deslauriers will be ready by the start of next year barring injuries and should make the team as long as we have a spot for him.

Hickey could be argued as being ready by the start of the season of course each of our D would be seeing rookie ice time but ready for the team? A bunch of them are ready now to say the least.

Toffi could be by seasons end though I doubt we will rush him and the same can and should be said about Vey.

I also wouldn't be surprised if Kitsyn made it out of camp this year due to his two way game though I might think it a bit rushed if it happened it wouldn't seem way too soon. If not I can't see him needing two more seasons before he became ready.

So I would argue that the majority of our kids will be available by the start of what you are calling year 7 if I am right.


Sure I guess this batch won't be ready by year 5 but then lets talk about last years batch?

Loktionov played last with the team last year.

Clifford played and stuck.

Lewis played and stuck.

A Mart played and stuck.

JB made his way up and proved he belonged and stuck.

Westgarth took most of the season to prove he belonged but he did and in the end has stuck.

Muzzin saw a handful of games and so did Schenn as well as King.

To me that makes us having 5 full time rookies make the team last year and 4 start the process two of which from this batch should be regulars this coming season if not three or more.

My point is that over the past two years we have added several key rookie's and are in the process of adding several more some of which are going to be very good and some could be exceptionally good.

I have waited as long as most anyone for our success and while I would rather that we be two seasons ahead of where we are now and do hold DL accountable for the Squid and Cloutier deals I don't mind that it so far has taken him a couple of extra years to get us into position.

I hate our coaching staff and question rather or not they are the right group to get us a cup too.

But none of the negatives that I have listed make me feel like DL has done anything but an exceptional job to date. If we don't make it past the first round this year and have the same coaching staff at the end of the season then you bet I will rapidly start losing faith in DL but I am a realist. I am not going to hang DL until I see more reasons to do so then reasons to laud his efforts.

Static to me meaning that when it comes to the rookie's that I mentioned in the post you quoted I meant that I almost want the team to remain open enough to get these kids into the line up, I have that much faith in them.

That's sort of the long and short of it.

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06-06-2011, 01:11 AM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Herby View Post
Well said Dutch, This is one of the best posts I have ever read on this board.

I'd just like to add that I am probably Lombardi's biggest critic on this board and I am constantly called out for it, people say I am not objective and am critical of everything.

You can search the board and find that I have said a few positive things about Lombardi, such as his handling of the goaltenders and his drafting in the later rounds. I'd love to see something negative that someone like KINGS17, Sjmay or Bunny Foo Foo have said about him. But are these guys ever labeled as Lombardi homers or blind Lombardi supporters? They cover up obvious mistakes like the return for Cammy and Visnovsky, the lack of development of certain forwards and the bad draft picks with lame excuses rather than to own up to the obvious failures.

Now I eagerly await KINGS17 and his arrogant reply about those of us who disagree with him as essentially being to stupid to see the big picture.
I have never called you stupid, so please don't misquote me or exaggerate what I have said. I disagree with you whole heartedly on many things. Lombardi found an organization in disarray and has for the most part made the right moves to repair it and set it on the right path.

I have said in the past that the toughest part of the job lies ahead and that he did what was necessary in trading what I would say were only servicable NHL players for the futures that the team needed at the time. The scouting and development department that has been put together is top notch, not just in my opinion but in the opinion of many "experts". If you choose not to believe that the Kings will soon be reaping the rewards of their excellent scouting department then I believe you to be extremely shortsighted.

I seldom even respond to your inflammatory rhetoric directly these days, because quite frankly I find it a waste of my time and you to be quite boorish. However, on this occasion I wanted to set the record straight.

I find that you have little that is positive to say about anyone that operates in the Kings' organization above the players and are very slow to recognize the players' shortcomings when they don't perform (other than your favorite whipping boy Ryan Smyth).

I won't go into the mistakes that I believe Lombardi has made, because I have written about them in the past and I doubt that your memory on the subject should I cover that ground again would last longer than 5 minutes. I do know that despite what you might believe about Lombardi's character or whatever other issues you have with the man, that he is big on critical self evaluation and keeps a written record of the mistakes he believes he has made and is constantly trying to improve himself. That is one of the traits that I believe make him a good leader for this organization.


Last edited by KINGS17: 06-06-2011 at 06:32 AM.
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06-06-2011, 01:17 AM
  #131
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That is one thing that I think everyone of us should know about DL. The guy does literally keep a written record of every mistake he has made and looks at it all the time to ensure that he doesn't make the same mistake twice.

I would even go so far to say that he is known to be someone who is overly self critical. Say what you want about the guy but he is acutely aware of his shortcomings and constantly works at becoming the best that he can be.

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06-06-2011, 01:24 AM
  #132
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Originally Posted by bobafettish View Post
stay static were in year 5 of the rebuild.... when most of those players are able to contribute we will be in year 8
TG would like to stay static in terms of the player personnel, not in the growth of the player personnel. There is a big difference.

Unless you don't believe guys like Clifford, Doughty, Johnson, Martinez, Kopitar, Lewis, Bernier, etc, etc, won't continue to improve.

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06-06-2011, 12:53 PM
  #133
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Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
I recall seeing a post that made Lombardi out to be a polarizing figure among Kings' fans. I think the reason for this has little to do with Dean himself and more to do with fans simply wanting to be polarized. Some feel that Lombardi is a great GM, and if someone disagrees with that, he automatically is labeled as someone who thinks Dean is a failure. I've called him an average GM over and over again for almost a couple years on this BB, and to this day I'm called out as being anti-Lombardi. I don't think he's been a failure, but I also certainly don't think he's been anything special as a GM and that his actual results don't come anywhere close to backing up his personal arrogance.
What is good for the goose is good for the gander. One particular poster has more than once implied or outright said I'm on Lombardi's jock when that is completely false. I pretty much agree with your assesment of him in this snipping although I would add that I think some fans get put off by Dean personally and allow that to cloud their judgement of his work.

Both sides of that equation have made him a polarizing figure and I don't really find myself on one side of the fence or the other which is why you don't see me kissing his ass or crucifying the guy. He is what he is. I just don't understand why this ever turned into a debate in the style of American politics where you are required to toe a party line.

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06-06-2011, 03:40 PM
  #134
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
TG would like to stay static in terms of the player personnel, not in the growth of the player personnel. There is a big difference.

Unless you don't believe guys like Clifford, Doughty, Johnson, Martinez, Kopitar, Lewis, Bernier, etc, etc, won't continue to improve.
This^

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06-06-2011, 03:56 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by KINGS17 View Post
TG would like to stay static in terms of the player personnel, not in the growth of the player personnel. There is a big difference.

Unless you don't believe guys like Clifford, Doughty, Johnson, Martinez, Kopitar, Lewis, Bernier, etc, etc, won't continue to improve.
of course im referring to player personnel. IMO, even with all players above improving this team doesnt do much in the playoffs.

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06-06-2011, 04:18 PM
  #136
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of course im referring to player personnel. IMO, even with all players above improving this team doesnt do much in the playoffs.
Just curious, so you don't put any value on the fact that Clifford came up, learned the NHL game with the team and scored 4 goals in the playoffs then, right? I mean to me Clifford had a big impact on our success during this years playoffs but for you to have the opinion that you do then you must see things differently.

How about A Mart? The exact same set of principals apply with the exception of the amount of point production, did he have anything to do with our making the playoffs and then winning 2 games.

Did JB have an impact? Did Lewis have an impact? He didn't play much but did Westgarth have any impact?

If you have even the slightest thought that any of these kids did make a difference to our making the playoffs and even the slightest amount of the limited amount of success we had in the playoffs then your position is undone.

Because this coming year we are likely adding two very highly skilled forwards at the minimum. If we follow your line of thinking then you are saying that Schenn and or Loktionov will have no greater impact on the team then the aging Zues or the hit and miss Ponikorovsky did.

My point is that we are adding players that are significant upgrades in the area's that we all have agreed needed addressing. I don't agree with your position at all but you are entitled to it. However, my point is also equally valid in that I am contending that these players will have a positive impact on our team and not only did last year but also will this coming season as well as over the next several.

Hang on to your beliefs until you are satisfied with the results. Just remember to come here and post about what happens.

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06-06-2011, 08:44 PM
  #137
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of course im referring to player personnel. IMO, even with all players above improving this team doesnt do much in the playoffs.
You can't keep replacing your home grown talent with established vets. Sooner or later improvement has to come from within. The biggest reason for this is the salary cap. Teams must have a fair amount of talent on their roster that is a bargain in terms of talent to dollars paid in order to either attract or keep the talented vets that are on their roster. The bargains come in the form of kids on ELC's that produce on the ice at a rate that exceeds what their value is salary-wise on the open market. Without this element a team cannot compete and win.

That is why it is important to have a well stocked pipeline. The Kings are going to lose some of these guys over the long haul, and they will have success on other teams. Dean's job is to keep as much of the cream of the crop as possible all while managing the salary cap.

I see our youngsters making big strides in the playoffs next season if they can get more consistency from each player during the regular season. The team needs to play on a more even keel. They are fine in terms of effort and determination when they are down, but they need to maintain the same level of play when they are up by 2 or 3 goals, and they didn't do that very often last season.

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06-06-2011, 09:02 PM
  #138
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I'm curious to know how many people would have fired Trotz.

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06-06-2011, 10:29 PM
  #139
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I'm curious to know how many people would have fired Trotz.
Or Tippet for that matter. Tippet coached teams have gone out of the First round FIVE TIMES out of seven.

Both Tippet and Trotz have worse playoff Records than Terry Murray.
But to be fair Terry Murray has coached a long time. Talk about not getting it done; Trotz and Tippet are poster boys for it.

But no one ever gives me an answer when I ask why Tippet can't seem to coach in the playoff's.

They just glaze over on how awesome a Coach he is. The only person that showed up ready to play in that Series against DET was Doan.
Yet Tippet doesn't get any blame for that. Had that been Murray and the Kings.....WOW the board would have exploded wanting his head.

And for the Record you guys shouldn't hate on Herby so much. He is way more laid back with his Dean hate lately.


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06-06-2011, 10:51 PM
  #140
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Have you seen Phoenix's roster? One 20 goal scorer and 11 10+ goal scorers. Terry Murray would be screwed with that kind of offensive talent. Tippett gets more from less and Murray gets less from more.

Getting producion from your bottom six tells me Tippett doesn't stifle the offense, he just doesn't have the top line skill of the Kings.

Quick was better than Bryzgalov last year and Phoenix still finished ahead of the Kings. The Kings also had 10 SO wins to 5 by Phoenix.

Phoenix is not built to win in the playoffs. I don't think anyone could win a round with that roster.

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06-06-2011, 10:56 PM
  #141
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Have you seen Phoenix's roster? One 20 goal scorer and 11 10+ goal scorers. Terry Murray would be screwed with that kind of offensive talent. Tippett gets more from less and Murray gets less from more.

Getting producion from your bottom six tells me Tippett doesn't stifle the offense, he just doesn't have the top line skill of the Kings.

Quick was better than Bryzgalov last year and Phoenix still finished ahead of the Kings. The Kings also had 10 SO wins to 5 by Phoenix.

Phoenix is not built to win in the playoffs. I don't think anyone could win a round with that roster.
Why do people bring up SO wins; Didn't PHX the year before that have like 10? . Does it really matter ?
Regardless it didn't get it done, and now it's a trend Five out of Seven. No one gives Terry any breaks. I don't see why Tippet should get any either. PHX looked lifeless outside of Doan in that series. That falls on Tippet's Shoulders unless you're going to give him a pass on that as well.

For christ sakes they didn't even win a Game. Terry Murray would have been Crucified had the Kings got swept (even without Kopitar).


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06-06-2011, 11:01 PM
  #142
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Regardless it didn't get it done, and now it's a trend Five out of Seven. No one gives Terry any breaks. I don't see why Tippet should get any either. PHX looked lifeless outside of Doan in that series. That falls on Tippet's Shoulders unless you're going to give him a pass on that as well.
That's fine. I would just rather have Tippett over Murray.

Personally, I think the Kings need a coach from the AHL that understands the "new" NHL better. No more pre-lockout coaches.

Do you really think that Phoenix is built to win in the playoffs? Do you really believe that Murray would have made the playoffs with that roster? Phoenix making the playoffs back-to-back with that roster is an accomplishment that I don't think Murray could do.

When Phoenix had the 10 SO wins, they had 107 points. The Kings ended up with 98 points with their 10 SO wins.

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06-06-2011, 11:08 PM
  #143
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That's fine. I would just rather have Tippett over Murray.

Personally, I think the Kings need a coach from the AHL that understands the "new" NHL better. No more pre-lockout coaches.

Do you really think that Phoenix is built to win in the playoffs? Do you really believe that Murray would have made the playoffs with that roster? Phoenix making the playoffs back-to-back with that roster is an accomplishment that I don't think Murray could do.

When Phoenix had the 10 SO wins, they had 107 points. The Kings ended up with 98 points with their 10 SO wins.
Now I can agree that an AHL coach would be a better choice. But people that sit here; and Blow smoke up your a#$s about how Great Tippet and Trotz are, need to get real.

They are just as much a failure as Terry Murray is, in the Postseason.

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06-06-2011, 11:18 PM
  #144
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Quick was better than Bryzgalov last year
... Huh? Bryzgalov was better, and by a considerable margin.

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06-06-2011, 11:21 PM
  #145
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... Huh? Bryzgalov was better, and by a considerable margin.
2.24 and 0.918 VS. 2.48 and 0.921. How was Bryz better by a considerable margin?

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06-06-2011, 11:22 PM
  #146
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That's fine. I would just rather have Tippett over Murray.

Personally, I think the Kings need a coach from the AHL that understands the "new" NHL better. No more pre-lockout coaches.

Do you really think that Phoenix is built to win in the playoffs? Do you really believe that Murray would have made the playoffs with that roster? Phoenix making the playoffs back-to-back with that roster is an accomplishment that I don't think Murray could do.

When Phoenix had the 10 SO wins, they had 107 points. The Kings ended up with 98 points with their 10 SO wins.
I agree

My thing is Tippet actually out coaches other coaches. TM has a system that if you are an opposing coach and can figure it out you have just found the keys to the liquor cabinet and they will always work. Wit DTips he has a system that is adaptable and designed to be so that it can be changed to kick your butt during the game.

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06-06-2011, 11:29 PM
  #147
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That's fine. I would just rather have Tippett over Murray.

Personally, I think the Kings need a coach from the AHL that understands the "new" NHL better. No more pre-lockout coaches.

Do you really think that Phoenix is built to win in the playoffs? Do you really believe that Murray would have made the playoffs with that roster? Phoenix making the playoffs back-to-back with that roster is an accomplishment that I don't think Murray could do.

When Phoenix had the 10 SO wins, they had 107 points. The Kings ended up with 98 points with their 10 SO wins.
What is the excuse for Tippet in Dallas? He had stacked rosters and 100 point teams and didn't do squat with them. He's had 3 50-win teams and lost in the first round every time.

TM has proven he can take good teams farther than Tippet in the post season. When he coached an elite team, he went Conf. finals/2nd round/cup final. Tippet won 3 rounds in 5 years with a fantastic team.

I'm not a big TM fan, and there are times I seriously want to beat him repeatedly with one of those foam fingers when things are imploding and he does nothing, but he gives us a much better chance of going deep in the playoffs than Tippet does, IMO.

A new face would be nice if TM is shown the door. Someone with a fresh system and a desire to prove something, and who can relate to the players. I too am tired of coaches who have been through the revolving door.

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06-06-2011, 11:33 PM
  #148
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What is the excuse for Tippet in Dallas? He had stacked rosters and 100 point teams and didn't do squat with them. He's had 3 50-win teams and lost in the first round every time.

TM has proven he can take good teams farther than Tippet in the post season. When he coached an elite team, he went Conf. finals/2nd round/cup final. Tippet won 3 rounds in 5 years with a fantastic team.

I'm not a big TM fan, and there are times I seriously want to beat him repeatedly with one of those foam fingers when things are imploding and he does nothing, but he gives us a much better chance of going deep in the playoffs than Tippet does, IMO.

A new face would be nice if TM is shown the door. Someone with a fresh system and a desire to prove something, and who can relate to the players. I too am tired of coaches who have been through the revolving door.
They are going to glaze over again, and tell you some magic awesome system he runs. I am not the Biggest TM fan either right now. I want a coach Like Guy B.

Tippet was fired from Dallas for not getting to the Cup with that staked team correct?

I don't want a coach that has Proven he can lose consistently in the Post season with talent or without.

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06-06-2011, 11:34 PM
  #149
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2.24 and 0.918 VS. 2.48 and 0.921. How was Bryz better by a considerable margin?
... First off, you can throw out the GAA because it's essentially meaningless.

Not only was Bryzgalov's regular save percentage better (.921 to .918), his shot-quality neutral save percentage widens the gap (.919 to .911). At even strength, Bryzgalov's lead is even larger (.931 to .921) than in the first two categories.

It's a considerable margin.

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06-06-2011, 11:59 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JT Dutch View Post
... First off, you can throw out the GAA because it's essentially meaningless.

Not only was Bryzgalov's regular save percentage better (.921 to .918), his shot-quality neutral save percentage widens the gap (.919 to .911). At even strength, Bryzgalov's lead is even larger (.931 to .921) than in the first two categories.

It's a considerable margin.
Save percentage on "hard" shots, Quick 77% and Bryz 69%. Save percentage while your team is on the PP, Quick 0.903 and Bryz 0.881.

Plus, how many shots did Bryz face that were considered easy? Your website only lists the percentage, doesn't say how many of the total shots were considered "easy". What if Bryz faces 5 extra easy shots per game, his save percentage will grow much faster than Quick's. The Kings limit the total number of shots against, but they still give up a lot of quality chances. Does that site break down the number of shots that they consider for each category? This way you can see how many "easy" shots a goalie is getting to "pad" their save percentage?

It's one thing to say that you believe Bryz had a better season, but considerable?

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