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June 24th. Picks: 25, 30, 39, 85, 99, 129, 151, 159, 172, 189, 202. V2

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06-07-2011, 11:13 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Haha well youre opinion isn't the "consensus" if its only yours.

The top 9 is no doubt RNH, Larsson, Landeskog, Strome, Couturier, Zibanejad, Hamilton, Huberdeau, and Murphy.

You'd expect that those 9 would be the first 9 selected, not in that order particularly as most of them are interchangeable.

According to Ulf's compilation of all the various draft ranking as at the start Scheifele has an average rating of 16. I really can't see any team reaching for him in the top 10. But I think he'll likely go between 11 and 20.

The price to trade up into that top 9 is going to be alot higher than it would be to trade to any slot after that, as those 9 are considered "a cut above" all the rest of the field.

Once you get into the teens the price of moving up is more manageable and I think is much more realistic considering what Burke is stating as his priority.

I refrain from using terms like "no doubt" in this draft personally.

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06-07-2011, 11:20 AM
  #77
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I think these guys have the potential to drop out of top 10:

Baertschi, Sven
Siemens, Duncan
Armia, Joel

And these guys to move up:


Oleksiak, Jamieson
Zibanejad, Mika

Just opinion, from buzz and rankings, not viewings.
But only mika Zibanejad is really a top 10 out of all the players you have there.

All the others are mostly ranked 10 - 20 that's not to say they can't make it into the top 10 I'm just saying that the general consensus says Armia is ranked 11-13 oleksiak 15-17 seimens 9-15 Sven Baertschi 10-20


There are a lot better and safer defense picks than oleksiak too Brodin to be one even though he seems to be ranked hire some s outs think he will crack the top 10 as there seems to be about a top 5 then a second tier of 4.

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06-07-2011, 11:20 AM
  #78
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Originally Posted by BigTime View Post
I refrain from using terms like "no doubt" in this draft personally.
Well considering multiple pundits and draft analysts have said over and over again that there is a distinct top level in this draft and after that 10-40 are pretty much up in the air, I would suggest that there is little doubt that the top 9 players will change, and none of them will fall out of the top 10. After that its an absolute free for all.

Getting back to your original point, I think its unrealistic to say that trading up for Scheifele means we "might as well trade up for strome". Strome is a possible top 5 pick, and in that top 9 there wont be teams who are willing to give away a shot at Strome for a guy like Scheifele for the same price. Trading up to the top 7 costs you a proven NHL'er plus a pick at the very minimum. Where as getting into the 15 range could more likely get done through picks only as Burke has stated he wants to do.

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06-07-2011, 11:23 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by donkeyy0 View Post
What about someone like Joel Armia? I literally haven't heard a peep about him since I started lurking on hfboards...is he still a lock to go top 15?


Still wondering what some of the issues are with Rask as well. He looked like a solid 1st rounder to start the year...then yikes...
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
I think these guys have the potential to drop out of top 10:

Baertschi, Sven
Siemens, Duncan
Armia, Joel

And these guys to move up:

Oleksiak, Jamieson
Zibanejad, Mika

Just opinion, from buzz and rankings, not viewings.
Yea I'm surprised we as a group have not mentioned Armia or Baertschi. I personally think we need wingers over centers. You need 2 top 6 centers and 4 top 6 wingers. With Grabo, Kadri, Colborne and Mckegg at center and hoping we acquire a first line center, I think our top 6 center depth is deep enough for the time being.

Wingers yeah we have Kessel, Kulemin, Mac and Lupul for now but I don't like our top 6 wing depth. The only 3 I feel have shot would be Frattin, Ross and D'Amigo and even them I don't think will be more than 3rd liners, which we have a lot of in the depths with Ryan, Caputi, Mueller etc..

As much love as we have been giving for McNeill and Scheifele and dreaming about Strome, it seems the only winger we have wished for is Puempel. Now Landeskog is out of the question and I agree a lot of the wingers projected in the first round seem like they may lack top 6 potential such as Saad, Biggs, Miller, Jensen, Jenner, Rattie while there is the worry that Khokhlachev, Namestikov and Jurco will be busts.

Thus Armia and Baertschi should be in the picture, as they are the top rated wingers minus Landeskog.

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06-07-2011, 11:28 AM
  #80
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Mika Zibanejad is actually a winger not a centre aswell while were on the topic of wingers. He played centre in the SEL but from the convo I've had about him it seems like he would play wing in NHL.

Armia would be a sweet pic but it almost seems like he's a dead lock for Colorado or Calgary

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06-07-2011, 11:31 AM
  #81
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I do find it sort of strange that Burke is looking to move up as quickly as possible into the teens (prior to the draft). In my experience watching the draft, teams usually move up on the draft floor because they have a certain player in mind. He's been pretty vocal about it.. almost too much for a pretty minor type of move (moving up/down at the draft happens often it seems).

Burke could be just laying the ground work knowing full-well a deal won't go down until June 24th (like he's said), but on the other hand he could want to move up now in hopes of further moving up on draft day (potentially into the top 10). The target could potentially be someone like Strome who seems to be in the 8-10 range.

He does have a lot of picks and could potentially crab walk himself into a top 10 spot. Not to mention moving prospects for picks (such as the Jimmy Hayes deal last year). I think both the 2nd this year, the 3rd this year and next years 2nd (one of them) could be in play to move up.

The potential is there for Burke to get very creative, especially if he's unable to come to terms with someone like MacArthur.

That being said I'm guessing he's just laying the groundwork for teams instead of doing stuff last minute. Like I said though, I do find it strange he's been so vocal about a pretty 'minor' move. Maybe I just never heard it before, but you rarely here of teams moving up (or at least, the price their willing to pay to move up - in this case the 39th overall selection) until it happens on the floor.

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06-07-2011, 11:31 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by topched View Post
Well considering multiple pundits and draft analysts have said over and over again that there is a distinct top level in this draft and after that 10-40 are pretty much up in the air, I would suggest that there is little doubt that the top 9 players will change, and none of them will fall out of the top 10. After that its an absolute free for all.

Getting back to your original point, I think its unrealistic to say that trading up for Scheifele means we "might as well trade up for strome". Strome is a possible top 5 pick, and in that top 9 there wont be teams who are willing to give away a shot at Strome for a guy like Scheifele for the same price. Trading up to the top 7 costs you a proven NHL'er plus a pick at the very minimum. Where as getting into the 15 range could more likely get done through picks only as Burke has stated he wants to do.
Strome is a possible top 5 pick but he is also a possible top 8 or 9 pick. No guarantee's this draft, that's all I'm saying. Burke said they want to package a 1st and the 2nd to move up, they know this will move them into the mid teens likely. Now if someone offers him the opportunity to get into the top 10 Burke has a lot chips to play with.

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06-07-2011, 11:42 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by John-Eric Iannicello View Post
I do find it sort of strange that Burke is looking to move up as quickly as possible into the teens (prior to the draft). In my experience watching the draft, teams usually move up on the draft floor because they have a certain player in mind. He's been pretty vocal about it.. almost too much for a pretty minor type of move (moving up/down at the draft happens often it seems).

Burke could be just laying the ground work knowing full-well a deal won't go down until June 24th (like he's said), but on the other hand he could want to move up now in hopes of further moving up on draft day (potentially into the top 10). The target could potentially be someone like Strome who seems to be in the 8-10 range.

He does have a lot of picks and could potentially crab walk himself into a top 10 spot. Not to mention moving prospects for picks (such as the Jimmy Hayes deal last year). I think both the 2nd this year, the 3rd this year and next years 2nd (one of them) could be in play to move up.

The potential is there for Burke to get very creative, especially if he's unable to come to terms with someone like MacArthur.

That being said I'm guessing he's just laying the groundwork for teams instead of doing stuff last minute. Like I said though, I do find it strange he's been so vocal about a pretty 'minor' move. Maybe I just never heard it before, but you rarely here of teams moving up (or at least, the price their willing to pay to move up - in this case the 39th overall selection) until it happens on the floor.
Yep, Burke could have much bigger intentions then most people think.

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06-07-2011, 11:43 AM
  #84
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I wouldn't rule out Burke moving into the top 15 with the 25th + 39th picks (add in another mid-level asset) to get a hold of someone like Mika Z or Strome, and then using one of the 2nds from 2012 with the late first if Peumpel is still on the board at 20.

I would be absolutely sold if he could pull a first round off like that. Two solid prospects out of this draft would be great.

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06-07-2011, 11:53 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
I wouldn't rule out Burke moving into the top 15 with the 25th + 39th picks (add in another mid-level asset) to get a hold of someone like Mika Z or Strome, and then using one of the 2nds from 2012 with the late first if Peumpel is still on the board at 20.

I would be absolutely sold if he could pull a first round off like that. Two solid prospects out of this draft would be great.
ZBad and Strome will be gone before you even reach 10

I think most ppl in the Sens boards believe the Sens are taking Strome and we have Zbad rated in our top 7-8 so you would think other teams would as well.

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06-07-2011, 11:53 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by ErnieLeafs View Post
I wouldn't rule out Burke moving into the top 15 with the 25th + 39th picks (add in another mid-level asset) to get a hold of someone like Mika Z or Strome, and then using one of the 2nds from 2012 with the late first if Peumpel is still on the board at 20.

I would be absolutely sold if he could pull a first round off like that. Two solid prospects out of this draft would be great.
Bobby Mac is close to finalizing his top 10 list but he said last week it seems ZIBANEJAD and STROME are almost certain to be gone before 10. I don't see it being a big enough difference for Burke to jump to 15 to sacrifice a pick when 15-39 is so close this year. I would only move up if I get inside 10.

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06-07-2011, 12:01 PM
  #87
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Not sure what you mean by that?
I was "traded" to the Leafs board as part of the Atlanta dispersal draft, all in good fun. So I'd figure I'd swing by and talk about hockey.

Does that have some bearing on whether or not Button is just putting forth opinion without knowledge to back it up?
haha okay i get it now, never understood what was about...so you are just here for a short while huh? cool

I personally don't trust button's ranking, don't think much about him.

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06-07-2011, 12:02 PM
  #88
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I think he means since your HF staff, which team do you write and what not, not in terms of you being here.

Also on Button, I don't see him credible whatsoever. The most credible when it comes to draft I think is Pierre as even cliff Fletcher mentioned Pierre is pretty dialed in with his draft stuff and also bob as he speaks to scouts.
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I cover the QMJHL for HF.
Exactly thank you sonny

Agreed, i don't find buton credible either.

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06-07-2011, 12:03 PM
  #89
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Bobby Mac is close to finalizing his top 10 list but he said last week it seems ZIBANEJAD and STROME are almost certain to be gone before 10. I don't see it being a big enough difference for Burke to jump to 15 to sacrifice a pick when 15-39 is so close this year. I would only move up if I get inside 10.
People talk about how close 15-50 are rated...but seriously, would anybody here not take Mark Schiefele or Mark McNeill over like...Michael St. Croix or Lucas Lessio at this point?

I think there's clear separation between 15 and 50. Obviously the two examples I used are extreme, but even so...I know I'd rather Schiefele over Biggs or Rattie (guys ranked around where the Leafs are picking).

Obviously if someone you want drops (which is very possible), then you love where you're picking...but if the draft were to go according to "pre-draft rankings", I've got to say...as a Leafs fan, I'd be far more excited with a top 20 pick than 30th.

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06-07-2011, 12:30 PM
  #90
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If Catenacci is available at 39, I seriously hope we scoop him. Solid kid.
Same here, I think he can be an NHLer.

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06-07-2011, 01:17 PM
  #91
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jenner for me.
I'd be surprised if Jenner makes it past 20-25. I'd love to get him even if we moved up to get him.

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06-07-2011, 01:26 PM
  #92
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I think the biggest jumpers of the draft will be Schiefele and Percy... possibly even Jenner if someone really thinks he'll be the next Richards.

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06-07-2011, 01:27 PM
  #93
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People talk about how close 15-50 are rated...but seriously, would anybody here not take Mark Schiefele or Mark McNeill over like...Michael St. Croix or Lucas Lessio at this point?

I think there's clear separation between 15 and 50. Obviously the two examples I used are extreme, but even so...I know I'd rather Schiefele over Biggs or Rattie (guys ranked around where the Leafs are picking).

Obviously if someone you want drops (which is very possible), then you love where you're picking...but if the draft were to go according to "pre-draft rankings", I've got to say...as a Leafs fan, I'd be far more excited with a top 20 pick than 30th.
I wouldnt, but that doesnt mean some team doesnt have Sheifele or McNeil rated a lot lower than we do. Ive seen some mock drafts and rankings that have both rated in the bottom end of the first round. There has to be some kind of ranking, but the point being made is that there is normally a big gap between 15 and 30, but not so much this year....still a gap, but with more chance of players moving up and down than normal. I think there will be some real surprises at this draft, there usually is when you have such a wide differing of opinion.

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06-07-2011, 01:32 PM
  #94
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Strome is a possible top 5 pick but he is also a possible top 8 or 9 pick. No guarantee's this draft, that's all I'm saying. Burke said they want to package a 1st and the 2nd to move up, they know this will move them into the mid teens likely. Now if someone offers him the opportunity to get into the top 10 Burke has a lot chips to play with.
If Burke moves into the top 10, I think the only way he does this is by making two trades. One to get from #25, into the teens, then another trade moving that pick to creep up higher. Columbus is probably the most likely candidate of teams willing to move a top ten pick.

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06-07-2011, 01:34 PM
  #95
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People talk about how close 15-50 are rated...but seriously, would anybody here not take Mark Schiefele or Mark McNeill over like...Michael St. Croix or Lucas Lessio at this point?

I think there's clear separation between 15 and 50. Obviously the two examples I used are extreme, but even so...I know I'd rather Schiefele over Biggs or Rattie (guys ranked around where the Leafs are picking).

Obviously if someone you want drops (which is very possible), then you love where you're picking...but if the draft were to go according to "pre-draft rankings", I've got to say...as a Leafs fan, I'd be far more excited with a top 20 pick than 30th.
Oh definitely 15-50 for sure, if someone slips to #15 that the Leafs like very much yep make that deal, I was just speaking in general terms with Leafs 25 and most likely 29th picks, with so many good prospects that have hit the top 10 lists of many scouts, there is a good chance leafs will nab 2 and possible even 3 players they like without making a deal, say the Leafs land a Percy or Sproul that 3rd pick may even turn out to be a diamond in the rough thus if they choose to move up, the scouts better be sure it is a homerun.

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06-07-2011, 01:48 PM
  #96
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Excellent question!

Phillips obviously had the great chemistry with Huberdeau and it propelled them both to the top of the scoring chart in the Q. I know we're often tempted to say that one player might be riding on the coattails of another or benefiting from the talent of their linemate, but I really don't think this was the case here. Hubderdeau was definitely the superior player, but Phillips was hardly a slouch. Without Phillips, Huberdeau wasn't as good and vice versa. In terms of projection, Phillips is a guy who I think will always be a complementary offensive forward. He's not going to be able to carry a line on his own. But make no mistake, I also think his future is scoring line or perhaps not in the NHL at all. He's not particularly physical (he's strong on the puck and will cycle down low, but not a gritty guy), nor is he overly quick (it's average, first few steps need work), which makes him a poor fit to be on the lower lines. Other marks against him are things like consistency and effort. Because of his skating, if he doesn't keep his feet moving the whole time he's out there, he sticks out and looks like he's floating.

Jurco is much more dynamic, but definitely a case of higher-risk for the possibility of a higher-reward. By this point, I'm sure we've all seen the Youtube videos of his shootout moves, but that's only the tip of the iceberg. It's not often a player will get the room and opportunity to pull out all those crazy dekes in an actual game situation, so don't necessarily get blinded by the highlights. But Jurco is definitely talented and he does have the ability to be a top scoring line winger. He's a sniper, but almost plays like a power forward, willing to use his body to drive to the net, pick a corner and light the lamp. I think his stock dropped a bit this year because Saint John tasked him with being a little more complete on the ice and...well...that's still a work in progress. He's still very one-dimensional (like Phillips, I think it's scoring line or bust for his NHL future), but didn't see a similar boost like Huberdeau and Phillips in his second year. With that said, it's hard to ignore his talent. Watching the Memorial Cup, you could see what a motivated and consistent Jurco looks like. He has that ability to take over a game. The question mark is whether or not, as he matures, that he can round out his game and play at the same level from shift to shift and game to game.

I think Jurco has a shot at being a better player, but Phillips is a safer pick.
Thanks for the info!
He will probably go top 30, but I hope Jurco falls to #39. Would be a helluva pick

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06-07-2011, 01:48 PM
  #97
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I wouldnt, but that doesnt mean some team doesnt have Sheifele or McNeil rated a lot lower than we do. Ive seen some mock drafts and rankings that have both rated in the bottom end of the first round. There has to be some kind of ranking, but the point being made is that there is normally a big gap between 15 and 30, but not so much this year....still a gap, but with more chance of players moving up and down than normal. I think there will be some real surprises at this draft, there usually is when you have such a wide differing of opinion.
I can see us nabbing any one of McNeil, Biggs, Puempel, Miller, Klefbom, Said, Rattie with one of our picks, even the Quebec kid I mentioned today looks like a player and if we are lucky maybe even 2. Finally it's great to be able to watch a draft with a Leafs stake in it.

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06-07-2011, 01:54 PM
  #98
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Oh definitely 15-50 for sure, if someone slips to #15 that the Leafs like very much yep make that deal, I was just speaking in general terms with Leafs 25 and most likely 29th picks, with so many good prospects that have hit the top 10 lists of many scouts, there is a good chance leafs will nab 2 and possible even 3 players they like without making a deal, say the Leafs land a Percy or Sproul that 3rd pick may even turn out to be a diamond in the rough thus if they choose to move up, the scouts better be sure it is a homerun.
Well that's always a chance, and perhaps it's more likely that we get a reall good player with our late round picks this year than others, but the guys that I'm personally interested in are Schiefele, McNeill, Oleksiak, Klefbom, and Puempel (and to a lesser extent Jurco)...and with the exception of Puempel (who may fall to the Leafs pick), those are all guys who by general consensus are ranked outside the top 10, but will in all likelihood be gone before the Leafs pick. If I'm a Leafs fan, and those are the guys that I am hoping for (much like a lot of Leafs fans), I'd be much more comfortable with a mid teens pick that I'll get the guy I want, than crossing my fingers and hoping the general rankings are off.

I don't doubt that there'll be a few players rising and falling, but I don't think it's just a free for all for all of the prospects ranked 15-50. I think there's a good chance that Schiefele et al don't make it to 25, just like I think there's a good chance that Catenacci doesn't get picked before 30.

If Burke's list of players he's looking for is different than mine, and a guy like Saad or Biggs is who he's targeting (or Percy like we've been hearing), then maybe he can get them without moving up, but the general consensus is that guys like Schiefele and McNeill are better prospects, and are ranked as such...

Mind you, if we don't move, I think there's definitely a CHANCE that a guy like Rask or Grimaldi (total wild card), or Catenacci could become very good NHL players...but I don't think there's much likelihood that they leapfrog prospects like the one's I've spoken about, because they aren't regarded as highly, and are therefore in a lower "tier" in terms of their quality as a prospect.

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06-07-2011, 02:01 PM
  #99
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Well that's always a chance, and perhaps it's more likely that we get a reall good player with our late round picks this year than others, but the guys that I'm personally interested in are Schiefele, McNeill, Oleksiak, Klefbom, and Puempel (and to a lesser extent Jurco)...and with the exception of Puempel (who may fall to the Leafs pick), those are all guys who by general consensus are ranked outside the top 10, but will in all likelihood be gone before the Leafs pick. If I'm a Leafs fan, and those are the guys that I am hoping for (much like a lot of Leafs fans), I'd be much more comfortable with a mid teens pick that I'll get the guy I want, than crossing my fingers and hoping the general rankings are off.

I don't doubt that there'll be a few players rising and falling, but I don't think it's just a free for all for all of the prospects ranked 15-50. I think there's a good chance that Schiefele et al don't make it to 25, just like I think there's a good chance that Catenacci doesn't get picked before 30.

If Burke's list of players he's looking for is different than mine, and a guy like Saad or Biggs is who he's targeting (or Percy like we've been hearing), then maybe he can get them without moving up, but the general consensus is that guys like Schiefele and McNeill are better prospects, and are ranked as such...

Mind you, if we don't move, I think there's definitely a CHANCE that a guy like Rask or Grimaldi (total wild card), or Catenacci could become very good NHL players...but I don't think there's much likelihood that they leapfrog prospects like the one's I've spoken about, because they aren't regarded as highly, and are therefore in a lower "tier" in terms of their quality as a prospect.
Glad you mentioned Catenacci, I like him too, this is why I want to acquire another 2nd rd pick. He is small only in height, but has a low center of gravity, very strong on the puck. Lack of height may turn off teams, but look at Marchand. Small player but thick and strong on the puck and a great pick by Boston.

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06-07-2011, 02:10 PM
  #100
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Just take a look at the movement from January to May on CSS.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/draftprospectbrowse.htm

Until the draft happens these rankings could continue to move like that.

Biggs from 5 to 22, Oleksiak from 27 to 13, Connor Murphy from nowhere to 25.

And these don't even take the European skaters into consideration.

Saad could go anywhere from 10 to 30 when you add in Euro's and he was a top 10 not too long ago.

Lack of depth or comparable to 2003 or depth without the stars?

__________________
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bA3LN_8hjM8.

Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.

Last edited by ULF_55: 06-07-2011 at 06:43 PM.
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