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Off Season Thread. Trade Spec/GM Mode - Part III

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Old
06-20-2011, 11:53 AM
  #426
strutsboa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Next summer, if you are Florida, would you rather pay Scott Gomez $10m for 2 years, or would you rather pay someone like Brooks Laich $10 for 2 years?

It doesn't make sense for poor teams to sign underperforming players. They are the least likely to go after this type of player.

If I am a GM in Florida, the only way I would take Gomez on next year is if you threw in a 1st round pick and I'd probably want a 5th as well because your 1st round pick won't be that high after dumping Gomez. I'd probably even through in a bad $2m contract as well.
The thing I meant about Florida is if they are really struggling to reach the cap floor. If so, then paying $10M for getting $14.7M in cap hit might be a good idea for them. Of course they rather would want good value for their money, but having Gomez would save them $4.7M in real money, and for a team under the floor that might be crucial.

If Gomez has a solid season around 50 points, I see a few struggling team have interest in him. His salary for the last two year is $5.5M and $4.5M, so he might be worth $5M to them, but not $7.357M for us.

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06-20-2011, 11:56 AM
  #427
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Bieksa for 5.5? He's worth 4 at the most imo, maybe 4.5 if we take into account having to overpay UFAs.

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Old
06-20-2011, 11:58 AM
  #428
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I think that with the salary cap going up, we should look to get the best top three defenseman for our buck and size up front:

We have over $16,000,000.00 to spend!

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Laich
Pacioretty - Gomez - Gionta
Kostitsyn - Eller - Langenbrunner
Darche - White - Moen

Markov - Subban
Gorges - Wisniewski
Gill - Yemelin

Price
Lalime


Last edited by WestIslander: 06-20-2011 at 12:08 PM.
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Old
06-20-2011, 12:09 PM
  #429
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
I think that with the salary cap going up, we should look to get the best top three defenseman for our buck and size up front:

We have over $16,000,000.00 to spend!

Cammalleri - Plekanec - Laich
Pacioretty - Gomez - Gionta
Kostitsyn - Eller - Langenbrunner
Darche - White - Moen

Markov - Subban
Gorges - Wisniewski
Gill - Yemelin

Price
Lalime
langenbrunner as slowed down a lot in the last years... kinda like john madden... I wouldn't pay him more than that...

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06-20-2011, 12:12 PM
  #430
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Originally Posted by Marc the Habs Fan View Post
I would be stunned if Markov signed for only 5 M, even if it's 2 years or more. Maybe if it's 4-5 years or more, sure. But I don't think the Habs should take that type of risk.

He was a 5.75 M cap hit back when the cap was 50 M in 2007.

It's going to be 14 M higher now.

He could easily ask for 6 M with the cap increasing over 4 M this off-season.
That was when Markov was hitting his prime and never had any serious injury. This will be one of the main subjects in their negociation. You can't solely analyze Markov with the probable open market value he'll get. Markov wants security, that's already been expressed. Both parties want to agree, that's already also been expressed. In any negociations of this sort, parties stipulate what they want. Markov's main focus is security, while the Habs want to take less risk. The obvious conclusion is that both parties will make concessions. The concessions in this case is more years and a cheaper salary. Most cases with an injury prone elite players have been low cap hit long term contracts (Gaborik, Savard), and I don't expect Markov's case to be any different.

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06-20-2011, 12:12 PM
  #431
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Originally Posted by strutsboa View Post
The thing I meant about Florida is if they are really struggling to reach the cap floor. If so, then paying $10M for getting $14.7M in cap hit might be a good idea for them. Of course they rather would want good value for their money, but having Gomez would save them $4.7M in real money, and for a team under the floor that might be crucial.
They have never struggled to reach the floor though. At the start of last season, they were $4m above the floor. Same thing with Atlanta and NYI. They were all above the floor once the season started even though they were like $30m below it last June.

No team has ever taken on a bloated contract since the salary cap where the real $ is less than the cap hit. ITS NEVER HAPPENED since the cap has been in place.

These poor teams realize its better to pay a fringe UFA's on one year deals and dump them to contending teams at the deadline and save real money + get an asset. Wiz is a perfect example.

Teams won't be taking on multi year contracts when they suck and are in financial trouble.

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06-20-2011, 12:21 PM
  #432
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
They have never struggled to reach the floor though. At the start of last season, they were $4m above the floor. Same thing with Atlanta and NYI. They were all above the floor once the season started even though they were like $30m below it last June.

No team has ever taken on a bloated contract since the salary cap where the real $ is less than the cap hit. ITS NEVER HAPPENED since the cap has been in place.

These poor teams realize its better to pay a fringe UFA's on one year deals and dump them to contending teams at the deadline and save real money + get an asset. Wiz is a perfect example.

Teams won't be taking on multi year contracts when they suck and are in financial trouble.
That proves nothing. It doesn't disprove the possibility of a team doing so. You do understand the concept of a peak, right?

Some team's financial situations allow them to solely survive by spending a maximum of 45-48 mil. These teans have constantly been pushed to spend more, while their financial situations hasn't gotten any better, execpt for the rise in their revenue shares from other teams. The more the cap goes up, the more some teams will be closer to that peak where the minimal cap will be higher than what they can spend. In this type of increasing system, it is only natural that the first years don't show this outcome, because the process hasn't gone high enough to produce that said situation.

It hasn't happened yet (although it did in some small instances), but it will in bigger ways in the near future and will become more common unless the owners increase revenue shares.

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06-20-2011, 12:29 PM
  #433
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
That proves nothing. It doesn't disprove the possibility of a team doing so. You do understand the concept of a peak, right?
Your right, it doesn't 100% disprove it. But you know what, common sense does. If I was Florida's GM, I'd offer Brooks Laich $6m for one year and tell him he's going to a contender come deadline time.

Why, I get an asset for this year at an inflated cost to help me reach the floor but also come February, I have the hottest commodity and a likely 1st round pick, while only costing me $4m in real dollars and I reach the floor.

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06-20-2011, 12:30 PM
  #434
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
They have never struggled to reach the floor though. At the start of last season, they were $4m above the floor. Same thing with Atlanta and NYI. They were all above the floor once the season started even though they were like $30m below it last June.

No team has ever taken on a bloated contract since the salary cap where the real $ is less than the cap hit. ITS NEVER HAPPENED since the cap has been in place.

These poor teams realize its better to pay a fringe UFA's on one year deals and dump them to contending teams at the deadline and save real money + get an asset. Wiz is a perfect example.

Teams won't be taking on multi year contracts when they suck and are in financial trouble.
You might be right and I can't say I think Gomez actually will be traded next year, I'm only saying that it might be an option.

Maybe there hasn't been any team taking on bad contracts due to reaching the cap floor, but the cap floor has never been this high either. Last year six teams, including Florida, where under $48M in spendings, could they afford ~$50M (aprox cap floor next season) in salary next season? Probably. Would some owners prefer to pay a couple of millions less? Maybe.

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06-20-2011, 12:38 PM
  #435
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
Your right, it doesn't 100% disprove it. But you know what, common sense does. If I was Florida's GM, I'd offer Brooks Laich $6m for one year and tell him he's going to a contender come deadline time.

Why, I get an asset for this year at an inflated cost to help me reach the floor but also come February, I have the hottest commodity and a likely 1st round pick, while only costing me $4m in real dollars and I reach the floor.
And yet that hasn't been done yet either.

But the market going up shows that teams will more likely take blotted contracts, espcially those frontloaded contracts, in which they inherit the low end of the contract, lowering their expenses vs the higher cap floor. That's common sense too.

Also, not many players look for a big one year payday, it has only happened once, and that player went directly to the contender, and was an elite player, whereas a guy like Laich isn't.

What happens if Laich isn't available. What do they do? Hire Kovalev at 5 mil to fill the void? Overpay on marginal UFAs who will ALL be looking for long term contracts? Gomez seems like a more reasonable deal, as they also get the possibility of spending less than 48 mils in actual salary comes next year.

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06-20-2011, 01:04 PM
  #436
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
And yet that hasn't been done yet either.

Actually it has been done. Doug Weight was signed by St Louis, they traded him come the deadline, then they resigned him in the off season and re traded him at the deadline again.


Not via UFA but via trade its been done. NYI acquired Wiz then traded him for assets. Altanta acquired Brent Sopel, then traded him.

It also explains why they couldn't trade Antropov. He had too much term. Teams won't be taking on bad contracts with multiple years. They are poor, they can't afford a poor contract over multiple years like the rich teams can.

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Old
06-20-2011, 01:08 PM
  #437
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Originally Posted by Ozymandias View Post
That was when Markov was hitting his prime and never had any serious injury. This will be one of the main subjects in their negociation. You can't solely analyze Markov with the probable open market value he'll get. Markov wants security, that's already been expressed. Both parties want to agree, that's already also been expressed. In any negociations of this sort, parties stipulate what they want. Markov's main focus is security, while the Habs want to take less risk. The obvious conclusion is that both parties will make concessions. The concessions in this case is more years and a cheaper salary. Most cases with an injury prone elite players have been low cap hit long term contracts (Gaborik, Savard), and I don't expect Markov's case to be any different.
That's nice and all, but with such a high cap number now, there's definitely reason to believe a potentially elite defenceman could get 6 M on the open market. Meehan is a smart agent.

Especially when the player is a PP ace - and we know that Markov will still have that ability as his hands, brain and vision were not affected by the injury.

There are plenty of teams, especially in the East, that can use Markov after having garbage PPs last season. The mere thought of Markov in Maple Leaf Blue or Devils Red makes me sick.

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06-20-2011, 05:50 PM
  #438
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Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
They have never struggled to reach the floor though. At the start of last season, they were $4m above the floor. Same thing with Atlanta and NYI. They were all above the floor once the season started even though they were like $30m below it last June.

No team has ever taken on a bloated contract since the salary cap where the real $ is less than the cap hit. ITS NEVER HAPPENED since the cap has been in place.

These poor teams realize its better to pay a fringe UFA's on one year deals and dump them to contending teams at the deadline and save real money + get an asset. Wiz is a perfect example.

Teams won't be taking on multi year contracts when they suck and are in financial trouble.
Not the exact same situation as Gomez, but Michal Rozsival

He was overpaid at a 5mil cap hit, but the contract is front loaded and PHX traded for him in the middle of this past season where his salary was 4mil and next season it is at 3mil. That can save them 2mil next season between the salary and the cap hit. Obviously Gomez's salary/cap hit is higher but I think the option may be there after next season. Especially if he has a better performance in 11/12.

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06-20-2011, 05:57 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by BrowsingForACup View Post
So, my first try at this capgeek thing:

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Erik Cole ($3.750m)
Max Pacioretty ($1.625m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Brian Gionta ($5.000m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m) / Lars Eller ($1.270m) / Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m)
Travis Moen ($1.500m) / David Desharnais ($0.750m) / Ryan White ($0.600m)
/ / Tom Pyatt ($0.600m)

DEFENSEMEN
Andrei Markov ($5.500m) / Alexei Yemelin ($0.984m)
Eric Brewer ($3.750m) / P.K. Subban ($0.875m)
Hal Gill ($2.250m) / Josh Gorges ($2.650m)
Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m) / Yannick Weber ($0.650m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Mathieu Garon ($1.450m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,595,509; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $1,404,491

Lots of room for adjustments. To start the year, we'd just have to start Desharnais with Darche and Kostitsyn on the 3rd line, and use Engqvist on the 4th waiting for Eller to come back from his injury.

Cole gives a "Pacioretty" element to the Pleks/Cammy line, and Pacioretty/Gomez/Gionta have already proven they can be an efficient line.

On defense, it would go as such:

#1 D: Markov (legit #1 d-man)
#2 D: Subban (legit 1st pairing d-man)
#3 D: Brewer (strong 2nd pairing d-man)
#4 D: Gorges (Above average #5 d-man, capable #4 d-man)
#5 D: Emelin (Wildcard)
#6 D: Gill (Good guy to have as a #6 d-man)
#7 D: Weber (can add some offense)
#8 D: Spacek (efficient veteran in a limited role, can step up when injuries happen)

To me, that's a very deep defensive core, with offensive and defensive upside, with some physical players (Subban, Brewer, Emelin), offensive players (Markov, Subban, Weber), and defensive players (Brewer, Gorges, Emelin, Gill) in it. Emelin apparently can pass the puck up the ice, Brewer is capable as well in that aspect. Gill and Gorges are a concerning in that aspect, but they're not there to create rushes... Even though I wish we had let Gill go to replace him with someone else who's more mobile. Emelin and Subban are rather quick on their legs, Weber is a very good skater too. And Gill excluded, the other d-men are not that slow neither.

In goals, Garon would give us some depth to replace Price if he gets injured or if he needs a rest.

So all in all:

Markov replaces Wisniewski
Cole replaces Pouliot
Brewer replaces Hamrlik
Emelin replaces Mara/Sopel
Garon replaces Auld

all positive changes from my point of view.

EDIT: Let's not forget if injuries happen up front, Desharnais has proven to be efficient on the wing last playoffs when used there, he's very capable of bringing an interesting element to Plek's or Gomer's line. So Kostitsyn, Eller and Desharnais are all capable of stepping up in the lineup if injuries happen. We've got an offensive guy like Palushaj who can be called up as well.
i like this line up

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Old
06-20-2011, 06:10 PM
  #440
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With the cap going up five mil and Hammr coming off our books, isn't it reasonable to be able to sign both Markov and Wiz? and possibly add forward?.. I mean worse case scenerio is next year we have to trade Wiz to be able to sign Price and Subban, and then we could get some good picks or players in return.. Seems foolish not to sign him really.

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06-20-2011, 06:13 PM
  #441
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With the cap going up five mil and Hammr coming off our books, isn't it reasonable to be able to sign both Markov and Wiz? and possibly add forward?.. I mean worse case scenerio is next year we have to trade Wiz to be able to sign Price and Subban, and then we could get some good picks or players in return.. Seems foolish not to sign him really.
I'm scared Boston will drop Kaberle and make a run for Wiz. I read that suggested somewhere today, and it just makes too much sense.

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06-20-2011, 06:22 PM
  #442
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Let's look at the update roster here:

Cammalleri(6.0)-Plekanec(5.0)-XXX
Pacioretty(1.625)-Gomez(7.357)-Gionta(5.0)
Desharnais(0.85)-Eller(1.27)-Kostitsyn(3.25)
Moen(1.5)-XXX-XXX
Darche(0.7)

RFAs:

Pouliot
White
Pyatt

XXX-XXX
Subban(0.875)-Gill(2.25)
Spacek(3.833)-Yemelin(0.984)
XXX

RFAs:

Gorges
Weber
Picard

Price(2.75)
XXX

Potential signable UFAs:

Markov
Hamrlik
Wisniewski

Total Spent Already: $43.24 Million
Salary Cap: Estimated $64 Million
Available Cap Space: $20 and change

So we have $20 million to fill our top pairing(ideally Wiz and Markov) which will cost somewhere around $11 million. Which leaves us $9 million to fill out a backup goaltender, a solid winger, some of the remaining RFAs to round out the bottom of the roster, and a solid 4th line center.

We are in excellent shape here.

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06-20-2011, 06:26 PM
  #443
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Let's look at the update roster here:

Cammalleri(6.0)-Plekanec(5.0)-XXX
Pacioretty(1.625)-Gomez(7.357)-Gionta(5.0)
Desharnais(0.85)-Eller(1.27)-Kostitsyn(3.25)
Moen(1.5)-XXX-XXX
Darche(0.7)

RFAs:

Pouliot
White
Pyatt

XXX-XXX
Subban(0.875)-Gill(2.25)
Spacek(3.833)-Yemelin(0.984)
XXX

RFAs:

Gorges
Weber
Picard

Price(2.75)
XXX

Potential signable UFAs:

Markov
Hamrlik
Wisniewski

Total Spent Already: $43.24 Million
Salary Cap: Estimated $64 Million
Available Cap Space: $20 and change

So we have 20 million to fill our top pairing(ideally Wiz and Markov) which will cost somewhere around 11 million. Which leaves us 11 million to fill out a backup goaltender, a solid winger, some of the remaining RFAs to round out the bottom of the roster, and a solid 4th line center.

We are in excellent shape here.
Yes Sir.

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06-20-2011, 06:36 PM
  #444
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
Let's look at the update roster here:

Cammalleri(6.0)-Plekanec(5.0)-XXX
Pacioretty(1.625)-Gomez(7.357)-Gionta(5.0)
Desharnais(0.85)-Eller(1.27)-Kostitsyn(3.25)
Moen(1.5)-XXX-XXX
Darche(0.7)

RFAs:

Pouliot
White
Pyatt

XXX-XXX
Subban(0.875)-Gill(2.25)
Spacek(3.833)-Yemelin(0.984)
XXX

RFAs:

Gorges
Weber
Picard

Price(2.75)
XXX

Potential signable UFAs:

Markov
Hamrlik
Wisniewski

Total Spent Already: $43.24 Million
Salary Cap: Estimated $64 Million
Available Cap Space: $20 and change

So we have $20 million to fill our top pairing(ideally Wiz and Markov) which will cost somewhere around $11 million. Which leaves us $9 million to fill out a backup goaltender, a solid winger, some of the remaining RFAs to round out the bottom of the roster, and a solid 4th line center.

We are in excellent shape here.
I really like that 3rd line, and hopefully the Habs get a good RW to play with Plek and Cam so Kostitsyn can stay on the 3rd. Wouldn't be surprised if the Habs have Darche penciled in the 3rd line RW spot and Kostitsyn with Plek and Cam. Though that could be the back-up plan if FA doesn't play out well for them. What about Vrbata as an option? Could come at a good price and short term. A fill in on RW while LeBlanc, Kristo, Avtsin, Palushaj, and Gallagher continue to develop.

The Habs seem to be high on Engqvist, so I wouldn't be surprised if they go with him next year as the 4th line center. Has good size, RH shot, and can play the PK. Would not be a terrible option, though another year (or at least a half) with the Bulldog's might be wise. I'd be surprised if White is not used as the 4th line RW. What do you think happens with Pouliot and Pyatt then? I'd like to see a grinder or two as the extra forwards.

Hopefully the 3 defence spots are Markov, Wiz, and Gorges. Wouldn't be surprised to see Weber there too, go with 8 dmen and 13 forwards. Lots of options for a back-up goalie this summer and should be at a good cost.

Gotta agree, looking to be in good shape with options and potential.

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06-20-2011, 06:46 PM
  #445
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What does Montreal's line up look like?

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Andrei Kostitsyn ($3.250m) / Tomas Plekanec ($5.000m) / Mike Cammalleri ($6.000m)
Brian Gionta ($5.000m) / Scott Gomez ($7.357m) / Max Pacioretty ($1.625m)
Travis Moen ($1.500m) / Lars Eller ($1.270m) / David Desharnais ($0.850m)
Mathieu Darche ($0.700m) / Andreas Engqvist ($0.900m) / Ryan White ($0.850m)
/ Tom Pyatt ($0.500m) / Benoit Pouliot ($1.350m)

DEFENSEMEN
Josh Gorges ($2.750m) / Andrei Markov ($5.750m)
P.K. Subban ($0.875m) / Hal Gill ($2.250m)
Alexei Yemelin ($0.984m) / Yannick Weber ($0.875m)
Raphael Diaz ($0.900m) / Jaroslav Spacek ($3.833m)

GOALTENDERS
Carey Price ($2.750m) / Alex Auld ($1.000m)

BUYOUTS: Georges Laraque ($0.500m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $58,620,509; BONUSES: $400,000
CAP SPACE (24-man roster): $5,379,490

I would love to see them shed Spacek's contract and go with Diaz as the number 7 to start the year but is there a team for Spacek out there?

Only a young team with a ton of Cap looking for a veteran presence on the D-corps would even consider it. The good thing is that this is his last year on that contract so any team willing or thinking about it, only has him for one year.


Last edited by Mats NAslund: 06-20-2011 at 06:55 PM.
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06-20-2011, 06:54 PM
  #446
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I personally like a 4th line center with experience. These types of players are invaluable in the playoffs, especially if they are good PKers and faceoff men. Halpern IMO was a great selection, it was just unfortunate he wasn't healthy.

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06-20-2011, 06:59 PM
  #447
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Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I personally like a 4th line center with experience. These types of players are invaluable in the playoffs, especially if they are good PKers and faceoff men. Halpern IMO was a great selection, it was just unfortunate he wasn't healthy.
I was pleasantly surprised by Halpern this year, thought he may have been overused though. Would not be opposed if he was brought back for one more season. I think Engqvist could use some more seasoning in the AHL, and get a few call-ups throughout the year to prepare him.

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06-20-2011, 07:08 PM
  #448
Zorba
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we need SIZE! Desharnais is in the mold of what we already have. Small skilled player. If size and kill is not added before training camp, making hte playoffs will be a hard task, with other teams improving

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06-20-2011, 07:10 PM
  #449
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buddahsmoka1 View Post
I personally like a 4th line center with experience. These types of players are invaluable in the playoffs, especially if they are good PKers and faceoff men. Halpern IMO was a great selection, it was just unfortunate he wasn't healthy.
agreed. Nothing against Engqvist but at 900k it's a little bit to much for some with barely no nhl experience.....At this price , I would add 200k and get someone more proven.

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06-20-2011, 07:26 PM
  #450
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