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Next Season's Roster (All Trade, UFA Signing and Re-Signing Discussion) Part II

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Old
06-09-2011, 09:48 PM
  #51
matt trick
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#6 options:
Salei, Huskins, Wallin, Mara, Rivet, Sopel, Vandameer, Staois, O'Brien, O'Donnell, AHLberts

A lot of those guys are borderline #6 guys, but come playoff time, hopefully Braun and an acquisition are taking up the #6 and #7 spots anyway. The great thing about a guy like Salei is that a lot of them will be understanding if you want to split time between him and Braun. The Canucks have shown that anything less than 8 NHL d-men should be unacceptable. Boyle-Vlasic-Demers-Murray-White-Top 4 Acquisition-Braun-Salei would be as solid as pretty much anyone.

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06-09-2011, 09:55 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
Torres clearly won that battle. There's no comparison between him and eager. The only goal eager scored was when we were down by 5 goals, many of which were scored on us because he couldn't control himself to stay out of the penalty box. Torres can be trusted with over 10 minutes a night, eager can not.

Eager: TOI vs vancouver: 16 minutes in 2 games - 22 minutes in the penalty box - 1 goal
Torres: TOI vs SJ : around 60 minutes in 5 games or on average 13 mins a night - 4 minutes in the penalty box - 1 game winning goal.

I really don't care if a player is deemed "filthy", nichol occasionally can be considered dirty and so can eager, and we used to have brad marchment, these type of players are more useful than goody-two-shoe heatley type of players that do absolutely nothing when it matters I'd much rather have these types of players on my side of the ice rather than against me.
It isn't relative levels of dirty. It is about how much they can be trusted defensively (Eager NOT) and whether they fulfill their offensive role (Eager NOT). Eager did not effectively forecheck. He was more prone to cherry picking. Torres does forecheck first which is what the Sharks need. I am not in favor of Torres, but . . . When Ferriero was re-inserted in the playoffs, I noticed that that part of his game picked up.

I assume that the Sharks are keeping their top 7 forwards unless we are surprised. In going over their needs, I said they needed a fast forechecker and a guy who is strong on puck control. Wellwood is an example of a puck control guy; Leino would be a major upgrade in that area. Mitchell is the fast forechecker as is McGinn, but both could be easily upgraded for a low price. They just don't play that smart. For 4th line, they probably want two guys who are heavy forecheckers. That role is the most subject to injury and games lost. At least one of the 4th liners needs to be able to move up and be effective in the event of injury.

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06-09-2011, 09:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
It isn't relative levels of dirty. It is about how much they can be trusted defensively (Eager NOT) and whether they fulfill their offensive role (Eager NOT). Eager did not effectively forecheck. He was more prone to cherry picking. Torres does forecheck first which is what the Sharks need. I am not in favor of Torres, but . . . When Ferriero was re-inserted in the playoffs, I noticed that that part of his game picked up.

I assume that the Sharks are keeping their top 7 forwards unless we are surprised. In going over their needs, I said they needed a fast forechecker and a guy who is strong on puck control. Wellwood is an example of a puck control guy; Leino would be a major upgrade in that area. Mitchell is the fast forechecker as is McGinn, but both could be easily upgraded for a low price. They just don't play that smart. For 4th line, they probably want two guys who are heavy forecheckers. That role is the most subject to injury and games lost. At least one of the 4th liners needs to be able to move up and be effective in the event of injury.
I also think that at least one, if not two, of the forwards the Sharks decide to add to the 3rd/4th lines need to be effective on the PK. They have to find a way to take some PK time away from Marleau, Pavs, Thornton...

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06-09-2011, 10:07 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I also think that at least one, if not two, of the forwards the Sharks decide to add to the 3rd/4th lines need to be effective on the PK. They have to find a way to take some PK time away from Marleau, Pavs, Thornton...
Agreed. Not to mention taking away pk mins from heatley

..I wonder why our pk was so bad going into the playoffs...?

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06-09-2011, 10:12 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I also think that at least one, if not two, of the forwards the Sharks decide to add to the 3rd/4th lines need to be effective on the PK. They have to find a way to take some PK time away from Marleau, Pavs, Thornton...
I agree. Torres falls down in that area. Despite being used on PK, Mitchell was not terribly effective there either. Nichol was the only guy putting up reasonable PK from the lower lines. Just FYI, Malhotra wasn't that good on PK either, much less than Nichol.

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06-09-2011, 10:14 PM
  #56
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im not in favour of resigning wellwood. hes too soft and has a very weak shot.

id like to see E.Cole get signed for line 1, drop seto to line 2, Clowe to line 3 and throw in Torres on the LW.
torres is a guy who we hate when we play against him, but love him on our team.

mcginn, desjardin and mayers should round it out.

mayers gets resigned cause hes a strong pker.

lines look like.
marleau - thornton - cole
heatley-pavelski-setoguchi
clowe-couture-torres
mcginn-desjardin-mayers.

that looks like a very solid and deep forward group

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Old
06-09-2011, 10:26 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I also think that at least one, if not two, of the forwards the Sharks decide to add to the 3rd/4th lines need to be effective on the PK. They have to find a way to take some PK time away from Marleau, Pavs, Thornton...
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Here you go, regular season PK forward rating. I sorted by GA60. Minimum of 1min PK/game. GA60 is a first level check, but you should also check the qualcomp that goes with the GA60. It actually turns out that Heatley was pretty good on PK. So was Mayers. Anything below 4.0 GA60 is excellent. 4.0 to 6.0 means that guy should be doing PK. Above 6.0, there are issues. For SJ last season, it wasn't just the players; they were burned by the strategy. I tend to look at PK stats for previous seasons for the Sharks for that reason.

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06-09-2011, 10:28 PM
  #58
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As much as I am disapointed with eager, at least he showed some emotion in the playoffs(which was alittle overboard...) I would consider re-signing him to a contract under 1m.

I would also keep Meyers. I was impressed with his play for the season. I felt he didnt get much of a chance during the playoffs, and felt he was under used in the vancouver sereies.
Keep Mitchell, boy still has some potential somewhere inside him

Keep all the rookies and cycle them through during the year

Get a top D player to replace Wallin and Huskins.

Done.

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Old
06-09-2011, 10:35 PM
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SJeasy View Post
http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...4+25+26+27+28#

Here you go, regular season PK forward rating. I sorted by GA60. Minimum of 1min PK/game. GA60 is a first level check, but you should also check the qualcomp that goes with the GA60. It actually turns out that Heatley was pretty good on PK. So was Mayers. Anything below 4.0 GA60 is excellent. 4.0 to 6.0 means that guy should be doing PK. Above 6.0, there are issues. For SJ last season, it wasn't just the players; they were burned by the strategy. I tend to look at PK stats for previous seasons for the Sharks for that reason.
I was looking at those stats, noticed how horrible Marleau and Pavs were this past season! I know that's not the 'norm' for them.

I like that Thornton, Pavs, Patty and Heatley are (normally) good on the PK, I just don't think they need to be playing 22-23 minutes a night. I also didn't expect a huge dropoff in PK from Malhotra to Couture, not to mention the offense Couture brings, which is why I wasn't too worried about Manny leaving.

I do think that a couple of the guys on the 3rd or 4th line need to be able to kill penalties. I haven't had a chance to look closely at the stats and chances are these guys won't come out West, but LaRose and Pascal Dupuis both interest me. They'll be on the cheaper side to sign and I do know that both got a decent amount of PK time on their respective teams. Both are good skaters and can add 15 or so goals.

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Old
06-09-2011, 10:47 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuckInTheNet View Post
marleau - thornton - cole
heatley-pavelski-setoguchi
clowe-couture-torres
mcginn-desjardin-mayers.

that looks like a very solid and deep forward group
I like this a lot. Even though I hate Torres.

Then sign Brewer and use Braun and that's a helluva team. Does it work cap-wise?

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Old
06-09-2011, 10:54 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
I also think that at least one, if not two, of the forwards the Sharks decide to add to the 3rd/4th lines need to be effective on the PK. They have to find a way to take some PK time away from Marleau, Pavs, Thornton...
A very good point. I also think it is important to not just pursue guys who are average pkers. Heatley, Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, and Nichol are average or better. If the team wants to improve the pk (beyond coaching), it needs to do better than average. If they only sign or replace Mayers and Nichol, the pk may not get back into the top 10. Thus, I have listed the UFAs who averaged more than two minutes on the pk per game. I noted the position and line that the following players should be on. H represents that they would be a high quality member of that position.

Dupuis (#3LW), Talbot (#3 LW/C), Ward (Premier #3 RW), Dvorak (H#4 W), Reasoner (#3 C), Handzus (#3 C), Halpern (#4 C), Morrison (L#3C) , Madden (H#4 C), Fiddler (H#4C), Eaves (#4 RW), Brent (#4 C), Grier (#3 RW), Clark (#4 RW), Gordon (#4 F), and Marchant (H#4 C).

Guessing on the costs of guys
Ward- 3.5 million. He is a high quality third liner in the regular season, likely worth 3 million. Demand and his playoffs will earn him an additional 500k, maybe more.
Handzus- 2.2 million. Solid third line center, will make a team happy, but not what San Jose needs.
Reasoner- 1.8-2.2 million. Solid third line center, brings pk, offense, defense, and faceoff ability. Could be a decent fit if Pavs shifted to RW, or a great 4th line C, but I think there are enough teams needing an upgrade at the three spot to take him on.
Dupuis- 1.8-2.2 million. Excellent third line wing with speed, offense, defense, and pk. Could be a great fit but someone could very well overpay. However, his playoffs leave something to be desired.
Talbot- 1.8-2.2 million. Excellent grit, pk, and some offense. Most importantly, playoff hero. Very interesting to see what a team pays him. Likely out of our price range for what he offers.
Grier- 1.25 million.
I imagine everyone else will be under 1.25.

Edit: Easy covered it better than I.

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Old
06-09-2011, 11:08 PM
  #62
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Originally Posted by SpinTheBlackCircle View Post
Joel Ward UFA RW.

Get him
I think Ward is looking at a contract close to the 2 mil mark. Its not just because of this year's playoff performance, but he's put up 30 point seasons for the last three seasons. For a bottom six/fringe 2nd liner I'd say those numbers are decent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
Mayers hasn't impressed me much, I just hate having guys who take dumb penalties...If we're even discussing getting torres I think mayers and eager should both be gone to keep our discipline level up.
Just because the guy had a 124 pims, doesn't mean he was taking "dumb" penalties. That has not been a concern with Mayers whatsoever this season. For a 36 year old I've been very impressed by his play and he fulfilled his role well. But because of his age I doubt he's coming back.

A couple of fourth line guys I wouldn't mind having would be Michael Rupp and Matt Bradley. I don't see them getting anything over $1mil. Then again you can't underestimate a team like the Philadelphia "Hey we're gonna sign Jody Shelley at 1.1mil for 3 years" Flyers.

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06-09-2011, 11:15 PM
  #63
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Some info on a couple of the players mentioned, no dollar amounts were mentioned but term is just as important to Wilson when it comes to signing UFA's:

It is believed that Talbot, 27, wants a four-year contract, something the Penguins are almost certainly unwilling to offer.

• Dupuis, 32, wants a three-year deal, which doesn't figure to fit into the Penguins' plans. Shero rarely gives players over 30 a deal that is more than two years.

• Rupp, 31, wants a two-year deal, but it is believed that his financial request isn't in the Penguins' ballpark

Here's the article it came from:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...#ixzz1OqKq0sem

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06-09-2011, 11:16 PM
  #64
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..............................watch all the video film of the top teams with 3rd and 4th line players. Narrow it down to the top 3 and try your best to have guys with skill along with grinding, not just grinding. Look for faceoff, playmaking, scoring, defense, bo jangle dangles if possible. NEXT watch draft film for possible players then watch the FA availability list look at there list of skills and make sure they fit our system. TADAA 3-4th line magic. Who wants to do all that?

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Old
06-09-2011, 11:36 PM
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stalockrox View Post
Some info on a couple of the players mentioned, no dollar amounts were mentioned but term is just as important to Wilson when it comes to signing UFA's:

It is believed that Talbot, 27, wants a four-year contract, something the Penguins are almost certainly unwilling to offer.

• Dupuis, 32, wants a three-year deal, which doesn't figure to fit into the Penguins' plans. Shero rarely gives players over 30 a deal that is more than two years.

• Rupp, 31, wants a two-year deal, but it is believed that his financial request isn't in the Penguins' ballpark

Here's the article it came from:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pitt...#ixzz1OqKq0sem
Wow, guess I underestimated his asking price. He's probably asking for something close to 1.5/yr. That is still too much for a 4th line tough guy in my mind.

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06-10-2011, 12:08 AM
  #66
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If only Marek Viedensky weren't just coming out of juniors; he seems like just the guy we need right now.

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06-10-2011, 12:28 AM
  #67
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What I'd do:

1) trade Mitchell to clear his 1.7 mil hit.

2) let Eager and Nichol go

3) keep Mayers and Wellwood

4) sign Vernon Fiddler (~1.3), Adam Hall (750K) and Ethan Moreau (~1.0)

Bottom 6:

Fiddler-Pavelski-Wellwood

Moreau-Mayers-Hall

Extra forwards: Ferriero and McGinn

Fiddler and Hall can play on the PK as well. Signing Moreau provides some good leadership and you can flip him and Mayers with McGinn and Ferriero when we need to change things depending upon who we play.

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06-10-2011, 02:39 AM
  #68
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Just because the guy had a 124 pims, doesn't mean he was taking "dumb" penalties. That has not been a concern with Mayers whatsoever this season. For a 36 year old I've been very impressed by his play and he fulfilled his role well. But because of his age I doubt he's coming back.
No, when you have two guys(eager and mayers) playing 5 minutes a night...and then they take a penalty, to me it means they shouldn't have been on the ice at all in the first place. Mayers wasn't that bad, he only took one "dumb" penalty which was cross checking against LA that lead to a goal 20 seconds later. He was benched through most of the detroit series because that 4th line was just horrible defensively.

Regular season doesn't matter as much to me, but of those 124 pims he had 16 minors(32 pims) which are what I call "dumb" penalties- discipline penalties that put the team in the box. While eager had 22 minors(and I tried to not include when two guys get matching roughings and such). Of course eager also had 5 minors just in 2 games of the playoffs, where mayers had 1.

Ryane clowe got a ton of minors in the playoffs, but it's easier for me to excuse him based on the contributions he makes on the scoresheet, along the boards, and in ice time. To me, when guys like clowe are occasionally getting undisciplined it means that we really can't afford to have our 5 minute a night 4th liners spending any time in the box. 6 minors between two 4th liners is only a problem when you add on 9 minors from clowe, 6 from heatley, and 8 from thornton.(could go further but I'm getting bored).

You could just say those top guys should be more disciplined, we did go through a few stretches where we were getting way out of hand with the penalties, but like I said I think when you play 5 minutes a night you shouldn't spend half of that in the penalty box. It puts a strain on the top players since those "grinders" should be on the pk as well.

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06-10-2011, 02:41 AM
  #69
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Matt Bradley > Mayers > Eager

McGinn Desjardins Bradley Viedensky Ferriero Wingels Mitchell Welly

and make your bottom 6 out of those players and possibly Pavs

but first lets fix the blue line.. i have a feeling if DW took that task a little more seriously this last year and a half the Sharks could still be playing

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06-10-2011, 02:47 AM
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by USF Shark View Post
What I'd do:

1) trade Mitchell to clear his 1.7 mil hit.

2) let Eager and Nichol go

3) keep Mayers and Wellwood

4) sign Vernon Fiddler (~1.3), Adam Hall (750K) and Ethan Moreau (~1.0)

Bottom 6:

Fiddler-Pavelski-Wellwood

Moreau-Mayers-Hall

Extra forwards: Ferriero and McGinn

Fiddler and Hall can play on the PK as well. Signing Moreau provides some good leadership and you can flip him and Mayers with McGinn and Ferriero when we need to change things depending upon who we play.
Mitchell's hit will be 1.36 next year, but I doubt he garners much attention in a trade unless he's packaged with someone more valuable. If he can't be given up on the cheap he's not that big of a deal to waive or buy out.(still not sure why he got a raise after an injury year...)

idk enough about fiddler or moreau's games to say whether they'd be better than mitchell/eager.

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06-10-2011, 07:54 AM
  #71
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Ugh, I have no interest in Raffi Torres. I want to be able to cheer the Sharks and I just wouldn't be able to do that if a guy like him is on the team.
Yeah, I could never root for the Sharks if they acquired a thug who previously injured a Sharks player in a dirty play.




Oh wait...

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Old
06-10-2011, 09:33 AM
  #72
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The difference between Wallin and Salei (or another low-end UFA guy) is negligible. What I care about is having an acceptable stay at home #6 d-man who can compliment White, at a significantly reduced rate of Wallin's current contract. I tend to think that Boyle-Vlasic-Demers-Murray-White-Salei/Wallin while not ideal, is good enough to take the division, and at the deadline the team can look to grab a major upgrade for the third pairing (after call-ups the team may be able to take on a contract as high as 4-6 million).

However, with the exception of getting both Brewer (~4.25 mill) and re-signing White (~3.35), and replacing Cole with Marek/Mash/Ferrerio (~.75) I don't think there is any way to go into the year with a defense that the team can truly win a cup with. I think the above defense keeps us well in the game, while providing a forward core that would be the envy of every team in the West. I would not be opposed to something like:

Marleau-Thornton-Seto
Clowe-Couture-Heatley
Wellwood-Pavelski-Ferrerio
McGinn-Nichol-Mayers
Desjardin

Brewer-Boyle
Vlasic-Demers
Murray-White
Moore

Niemi
Greiss

However, it leaves 500k in cap space, so acquisition of a forward would likely be limited to 2 million at best. Than again, in such a situation, maybe the team can makes alterations to the salary structure so that more could be done with offense later on.

Overall, I think they are both good options, but I'd just prefer the first one. As I noted in an early post, the team has three options: offense+defense, all defense, offense/defense+bottom 6. Justifications could be made for any of them.
Thanks for the thourough response.

I would feel more comfortable with this kind of lineup. I'm not too worried about the cap space because a Ferriero upgrade should be easier/cheaper to obtain at the deadline than a Selei upgrade.

I still think it would be ideal if we could obtain a partner for Vlasic to form a shut down pair but I understand the difficulties in making this happen.

So, I guess it comes down to if you think that Murray->Brewer (or other) or Heatley/Setoguchi->Cole (or other) is a better upgrade to cure our top 5 vs your top 5 goal differiential next playoffs.

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06-10-2011, 10:22 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by Tealblood View Post
Regular season doesn't matter as much to me, but of those 124 pims he had 16 minors(32 pims) which are what I call "dumb" penalties- discipline penalties that put the team in the box.
Not specifically talking about anyone, but I think it's a bit simplistic to label all Minor penalties as dumb or undisciplined. In some cases, the player is a victim of circumstance, and something that normally wouldn't be called, is called because of a mitigating factor (I.E. Clean hit where the player turned at the last second and went down awkwardly). There are also instances where taking the penalty is the best option (Interference to prevent a breakaway, Hook in front of the net to prevent a goal, etc).

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06-10-2011, 11:07 AM
  #74
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Thought this was interested (Results may be surprising). I know that they're hinkey when it comes to crediting giveaways, but if it's a least, relatively consistant, then this is something to look at:



The higher the ToI per GvA, the better. Shows Nichol and Wellwood as having the least amount of turnovers for our bottom 9 (Desjardins doesn't have a big sample).

I guess the biggest surprise is how much ahead of the pack Huskins is and the fact that Wallin is in the top 3rd.

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Old
06-10-2011, 11:08 AM
  #75
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Chris Drury as our 4th line center gives you:

Thornton
Couture
Pavelski
Drury

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