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holik for first line center

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07-20-2004, 03:37 PM
  #1
newf
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holik for first line center

now, i agree that holik is best used as a 3rd line neutralizer against guys like sundin and thornton, but if you look at this team as its put together now, and acknowledge that the consensus opinion is not to get many (old) UFA's, then what's wrong with holik as jagr's center? they play well together, jagr benefits from the space holik creates by using his size, and if you look at his stats from last year (25 - 31 - 56) he's equivalent to guys like arnott and marleau. and that's considering that he played a lot of time not as a scoring center. 10 more points, which i think he'd get as jagr's steady center, puts him up there with federov and lecavalier (based on last year's stats). plus he's said that he'd be willing to do what renney asked of him.

imho, people who are insisting he can ONLY be used as a 3rd line center are being pretty short sighted. he's more talented and versatile than that. i say give him 82 games with jagr, let lundmark pair up with balej on the second line, and get someone else to shut down the opposition - is that bett's kind of game? didn't ortmeyer used to play center before last season?

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07-20-2004, 03:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newf
now, i agree that holik is best used as a 3rd line neutralizer against guys like sundin and thornton, but if you look at this team as its put together now, and acknowledge that the consensus opinion is not to get many (old) UFA's, then what's wrong with holik as jagr's center? they play well together, jagr benefits from the space holik creates by using his size, and if you look at his stats from last year (25 - 31 - 56) he's equivalent to guys like arnott and marleau. and that's considering that he played a lot of time not as a scoring center. 10 more points, which i think he'd get as jagr's steady center, puts him up there with federov and lecavalier (based on last year's stats). plus he's said that he'd be willing to do what renney asked of him.

imho, people who are insisting he can ONLY be used as a 3rd line center are being pretty short sighted. he's more talented and versatile than that. i say give him 82 games with jagr, let lundmark pair up with balej on the second line, and get someone else to shut down the opposition - is that bett's kind of game? didn't ortmeyer used to play center before last season?
I've always been in the opinion of you let players play to their strengths. Everyone keeps talking about us signing vets to fill in holes and to come and play specific roles. Holik's ideal role would be as a third line center, shutting down opposing teams' top lines. That is his strength. That is something he has always done great over the years. That is something this team needs in order to allow our first two lines less pressure from coming from behind and more opportunity to take the lead.

Yes, Holik put up respectable numbers during his time on the first line but top lines from other teams ran us over and put the puck in our net a hell of a lot more. Chara's strength with the Sens is his size so on the PP they park him infront of the net. He has a nice slap shot as well (similar to Holik's ability to play beside Jagr) but his strength is his size so the Sens let him play his role. St. Louis is a quick little bugger so the Lightning let him fly down the ice. Primeau is a one man wrecking machine so the Flyers let him play to his strength and park him infront of the net.

All successful teams make note of their players strengths and let them play to them unless in a time of need. If we don't sign a first line center, then yet, unfortunately through team need, Holik has to play 1st line center and we hope that Betts or one of the kids can be half as effective as Holik is as a third line center.

Anyways, my long rambling point. Let the players play to their strengths and Holik's is most certainly a shut down, third line center who can put points up on occassion just through his sheer ability.

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07-20-2004, 03:49 PM
  #3
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by newf

imho, people who are insisting he can ONLY be used as a 3rd line center are being pretty short sighted. he's more talented and versatile than that. i say give him 82 games with jagr, let lundmark pair up with balej on the second line, and get someone else to shut down the opposition - is that bett's kind of game? didn't ortmeyer used to play center before last season?
Actually, I think people who want to use Holik at 1st line C are being short sighted..I agree on Holik's talent and versatility and I also agree that he could work well with Jagr for a year...But what aboutt he rest of the team? are we just gonna throw all the kids together with no supporting vets?

You use Lundamrk as an example..Jaime Lunmakr has't even shown he's capable of 4th line C and you are handing him 2nd line ice? What will failure do to his confidence?..Yes, Bett's is a checker, but let him prove he can stay healthy and play on a nightly basis before making him a "stopper"..And who knows if Helminen or Wiseman or Moore are even ready for the NHL yet? They shouldn't be in there before they are ready...

Holik as a quasi-checking C getting 2nd line ice whil a FA passer plays with Jagr helps everybody, especially kids like Lundmark, Moore, Betts and whoever who will still be playing but at a better development level..

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07-20-2004, 04:00 PM
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Eggsactly Larry..

I don't think you'd want to have your only two NHLers with more than one years' experience to be on the same line. Holik is a checking center and should be used as such. He should have wingers that complement him well, and I've been a big proponent of replicating what he had in Jersey and that was a McKay clone and a Brylin clone. Heck, if you want to throw Balej out there with Holik, to add some speed and creativity, I'm not 100% against it. But Holik and Jagr is creating a one-line team once again. It will be one first line and three fourth lines. Need to spread it out better.

Of course that begs the question of who plays with Jagr...a question to which I current do not have an answer (perhaps Conroy would've looked nice in a Rangers uniform).

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07-20-2004, 04:00 PM
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He's not ONLY a 3rd line center... he could play 2nd line too!

Seriously, he'll flip out if they put him as no. 1 center... too much pressure, and you know Holik. Plus his game is so much better suited for 2nd or even 3rd line. 1st line is misusing Holik no matter how you look at it.

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07-20-2004, 04:19 PM
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In addition to what everyone else has said, the way the team stands now, like it or not, Holik is the second best offensive player we have. Combine that with the fact that his game is best suited on the third line. Bear in mind that the "third line" is merely a label and that Bobby will be logging tons of minutes. Having him and Jagr separate allows us to spread our top talent across two lines. If you put Jags and Bobby on the same line, all the other team needs to do is shut it down and then **** whatever other 3 lines we are able to put together.

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07-20-2004, 04:28 PM
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Holik does not have the talent to be a "1st line" center. If he plays that role here, it's pretty sad and only because we have nobody else to play that position. He honestly does not have that much offensive talent - he doesn't have good hands, and his shot is not that good. What's his biggest claim to fame...the Crash Line playing with Mckay and Oliwa, two guys with not much less talent than Bobby "Stone Hands" himself. Any way you cut it he will just be a overpaid third line center, which is something this team does not need, we have plenty of guys to play that role for alot less money.

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07-20-2004, 04:46 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
He's not ONLY a 3rd line center... he could play 2nd line too!

Seriously, he'll flip out if they put him as no. 1 center... too much pressure, and you know Holik. Plus his game is so much better suited for 2nd or even 3rd line. 1st line is misusing Holik no matter how you look at it.
To his credit (and not being cynical about these things) Holik has made noises in the press to the effect that he would welcome a leadership role on this young team, even if that means playing 1st line centre. Of course, he has stated that he would rather play a checking centre, and that's where I think he should play, but my point is that he'd probably not flip out this time around.

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07-20-2004, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sather Hater
Holik does not have the talent to be a "1st line" center. If he plays that role here, it's pretty sad and only because we have nobody else to play that position. He honestly does not have that much offensive talent - he doesn't have good hands, and his shot is not that good. What's his biggest claim to fame...the Crash Line playing with Mckay and Oliwa, two guys with not much less talent than Bobby "Stone Hands" himself. Any way you cut it he will just be a overpaid third line center, which is something this team does not need, we have plenty of guys to play that role for alot less money.

The Crash Line had Holik with McKay and Peluso. How many guys with "stone hands" have scored 20+ goals NINE times in the NHL?

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07-20-2004, 04:57 PM
  #10
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Holik is best suited as a 2nd line center. His checking skills would only be matched up against certain teams that had big, dominant, centers.

It's not so much what line he plays on. It's who he plays with. I don't care how well he does checking his opposing center. If he wings can't cover jack his line will not get it done.

Holik doens't fight and angers most every opponent so he will not only need defensive players with some offensive skill on his line but he will need some toughness.

I'd love to get Bell from Chicago to play with him. Certainly Murray can play on that line as well as Ortmeyer. However, I would prefer both on a 3rd or 4th line.

If we go with kids Giroux might seem like a nice fit as well as Wiseman.

I wish we had a mean, power forward to put with Holik but our prospects like that our a year or two away. Maybe Giroux can make the team.

 
Old
07-20-2004, 05:08 PM
  #11
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Holik signed here saying he does not want to be the #1 center. He knows he is not one and doesn't want to be used that way. Second and third line is where he is most usefull.

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07-20-2004, 07:18 PM
  #12
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this is something that would be best for all the kids:

schastlivy - some vet? - jagr
mccammond - lundmark- balej
murray - holik - ortmeyer
wiseman- betts ( if stays healthy )/moore - (some tough guy) - jeremy stevenson or dave ling

or

wiseman - some vet? -jagr
mccammond - lundmark - schastlivy
murray - holik - balej
j. stevenson - moore / betts - ortmeyer <~~~~ still used on all pk's

those lineups got a good mix of vets to be there for expieience and help think any of those lines could really work.

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07-20-2004, 07:42 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
this is something that would be best for all the kids:

schastlivy - some vet? - jagr
mccammond - lundmark- balej
murray - holik - ortmeyer
wiseman- betts ( if stays healthy )/moore - (some tough guy) - jeremy stevenson or dave ling

or

wiseman - some vet? -jagr
mccammond - lundmark - schastlivy
murray - holik - balej
j. stevenson - moore / betts - ortmeyer <~~~~ still used on all pk's

those lineups got a good mix of vets to be there for expieience and help think any of those lines could really work.

Holik is no 1st line center but keeping him down on the 3rd is also waste... 25 goals 54 points is not bad... and how does Balej wind up on the 3rd line behind Lundmark? He showed more in the short time hes been here then Jamie has in 4 years...The hype surrounding Lundmark is a little crazy, if he turns out to be a good role player consider ourselves lucky... buut he is no 2nd line talent... most folks consider Balej to be just that, and he is alot more talented then Lundmark.

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07-20-2004, 07:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveytrain
Holik is no 1st line center but keeping him down on the 3rd is also waste... 25 goals 54 points is not bad... and how does Balej wind up on the 3rd line behind Lundmark? He showed more in the short time hes been here then Jamie has in 4 years...The hype surrounding Lundmark is a little crazy, if he turns out to be a good role player consider ourselves lucky... buut he is no 2nd line talent... most folks consider Balej to be just that, and he is alot more talented then Lundmark.
well first off im not putting players in position as to whose 1st and whose 4th, well besides the 4th line, the lines i made are just combinations that i think would work, not exactly in order saying one guy deserves more ice time than the other.. THEY ARE JUST PAIRINGS THATS ALL... and what did u see so great out of balej last year, lundmark been moved around somuch in the LAST 4 YEARS as u put it , he dont know if hes coming or going, give him a stable spot to see what he can do, and no doubt balej should and hopefully will turn out like maybe a patrick elias or petr sykora that would be great, or even close to that would be good.... but all i really remember is one $hit goal on brodeur last year that he basically fanned on the shot and lucked out... do u remember that high light goal, neither lunds or balej have showed anything that they are top notch, balej hasnt got much nhl expieience , buit to me they are somewhat on the same page.

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07-20-2004, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by little a from da bx
well first off im not putting players in position as to whose 1st and whose 4th, well besides the 4th line, the lines i made are just combinations that i think would work, not exactly in order saying one guy deserves more ice time than the other.. THEY ARE JUST PAIRINGS THATS ALL... and what did u see so great out of balej last year, lundmark been moved around somuch in the LAST 4 YEARS as u put it , he dont know if hes coming or going, give him a stable spot to see what he can do, and no doubt balej should and hopefully will turn out like maybe a patrick elias or petr sykora that would be great, or even close to that would be good.... but all i really remember is one $hit goal on brodeur last year that he basically fanned on the shot and lucked out... do u remember that high light goal, neither lunds or balej have showed anything that they are top notch, balej hasnt got much nhl expieience , buit to me they are somewhat on the same page.
Not so much what ive seen from Balej, but what i dont see from Lundmark.. no they werent any highlight goals... but i cant put them on the same level, Balej shows alot more ability to handle the puck in stride, much better offensive insincts and a better all around skater....Yeah Lundmark has had a bumpy ride but so what, they all do...

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07-20-2004, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radek27
Holik signed here saying he does not want to be the #1 center. He knows he is not one and doesn't want to be used that way. Second and third line is where he is most usefull.

Exactly... I know he wants to have a leadership role, but we all know what he really wants is to be an assistant captain at most. If he's no. 1 center he'll seem fine fore about 20 games, then he'll get agitated, and he'll quickly go *******... He's a good player, but we all know him at this point.

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07-20-2004, 11:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Leetchie
The Crash Line had Holik with McKay and Peluso. How many guys with "stone hands" have scored 20+ goals NINE times in the NHL?
Standing in front of the net and scoring garbage goals does not mean you have good hands and can shoot the puck. Watch him with the puck and when he takes one of his weak wrist shots from the blueline, like he did many times last year, then tell me he has good hands and a good shot.

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07-20-2004, 11:51 PM
  #18
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I think stone hands refers more to people who cant really score period than guys who get garbage goals.

The art of deflecting a shot or even getting it by a goalie at close range does require some skill and coordination.

if it were that easy to get garbage goals everyone would just be trying to stand infront of the net.

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07-21-2004, 03:46 AM
  #19
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1st line? 3rd line? It doesn't matter. Regardless, Holik will get 16-20 minutes a night which is 1st line ice time. So given that, it's more a matter of who should Holik play with? IMO he should skate with Murray and Ortmeyer to play against and crush other teams top lines. PP, PK will round up his PT.

Double shift Jagr to get him his PT. Both Lundrmark and Moore can get a chance to center him!

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07-21-2004, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobMarleyNYR
He's not ONLY a 3rd line center... he could play 2nd line too!

Seriously, he'll flip out if they put him as no. 1 center... too much pressure, and you know Holik. Plus his game is so much better suited for 2nd or even 3rd line. 1st line is misusing Holik no matter how you look at it.
I agree. If we put him on the 1st line every will be complaining at how he sucks. Before us he maid his liveing on the 3rd line.

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07-21-2004, 01:28 PM
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your paying him 9 million a season, he's your 1st line center. After reading the ESPN article about the whole signing situation the only reason NYR signed him was to Get him out of New Jersey. Not to use him as Toronto or Dallas would have used him..

as a 3rd line Center.

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07-21-2004, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Machoking2003-04
Not to use him as Toronto or Dallas would have used him..

as a 3rd line Center.
In other words, not to use him properly?

Since when does someone's salary dictate their place in the organization?

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07-21-2004, 02:18 PM
  #23
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Originally Posted by Graveytrain
Not so much what ive seen from Balej, but what i dont see from Lundmark.. no they werent any highlight goals... but i cant put them on the same level, Balej shows alot more ability to handle the puck in stride, much better offensive insincts and a better all around skater....Yeah Lundmark has had a bumpy ride but so what, they all do...
ones a european and ones a north american different games they grew up playingive seen lunds score some pretty sweet goals, i think he might not be as taelnted as balej but not that far away , give him a shot i have a feeling he might work out, just a couplemonths ago i was agianst him but for some rerason im willing to give hima shot now, it takes a while for some to break out look at shane doan, he now at 27 is becoming a leader, year by year nashville is patient with david legwand he is ok but maybe he would be similar to what lundmark would be, which is ok i guess, but i still would like to know what balej showed u , he didnt show me that much in the games here and thats his really only nhl expieinec, i think maybe all u are to high on balej

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07-21-2004, 02:33 PM
  #24
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Originally Posted by little a from da bx
ones a european and ones a north american different games they grew up playingive seen lunds score some pretty sweet goals, i think he might not be as taelnted as balej but not that far away , give him a shot i have a feeling he might work out, just a couplemonths ago i was agianst him but for some rerason im willing to give hima shot now, it takes a while for some to break out look at shane doan, he now at 27 is becoming a leader, year by year nashville is patient with david legwand he is ok but maybe he would be similar to what lundmark would be, which is ok i guess, but i still would like to know what balej showed u , he didnt show me that much in the games here and thats his really only nhl expieinec, i think maybe all u are to high on balej

He showed me the same thing he showed most other fans.... speedy, shifty with a good sense of the game around him... very good hands and agressive with the puck... he seems to trust his skills alot more then Lundmark, personally i dont think Lundmark has a ton of skill to begin with... his speed will define his game more then anything else... his speed will create his oppurtunities, not his vision or creativity... Balej is capable of much more

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07-21-2004, 03:07 PM
  #25
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Originally Posted by Graveytrain
He showed me the same thing he showed most other fans.... speedy, shifty with a good sense of the game around him... very good hands and agressive with the puck... he seems to trust his skills alot more then Lundmark, personally i dont think Lundmark has a ton of skill to begin with... his speed will define his game more then anything else... his speed will create his oppurtunities, not his vision or creativity... Balej is capable of much more
capable of more not much more, u make this guy seem like he is godly . all that u listed is not what u saw i watched all the games last year and even when nyr acquired him, and i saw nothing of what u listed . ive heard all that from people but he didnt show much of that. all i really saw was him trying to look for the open spot for a pass, which is somewhat good. and made a couple good hustle plays and had an opportunity or 2 to score and ****ed up ( maybe out of nervousness ) , but basically both him and lundmark are both yet to show anything. lundmark been around alot more but by playing 6 minutes a game and being moved all around dont give u that much of an opportunity to grow and become a scoring threat or just a offensive player, he needs confidence . yes i think balej has more talent than lundmark does, not much more as u percieve it. but both got offensive talent and lundmark is yet to show any , but maybe will this season. and tjhis will be balejs first season , if there is one.so this debate can go on and on but basically we will see when opening day coes there is 82 games to be played. we will see.


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