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Old
06-22-2011, 12:50 AM
  #576
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Originally Posted by Chicken Chaser View Post
Vancouver used their regular season expertise and all that hard work to gain the most important game of their lives to a "T" in game 7 didn't they?
Let's not snub what was probably one of the greatest goaltending performances of all-time in the SCF. Vancouver choked hard, but Thomas was out of his mind.

Luongo imploding helped a bit too.

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06-22-2011, 12:51 AM
  #577
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Vancouver used their regular season expertise and all that hard work to gain the most important game of their lives to a "T" in game 7 didn't they?

Last year's Flyers and this Years Packers ring a bell perhaps??

Guess not
How'd that end...? And lets ignore that it was, literally, a historic anomaly... since, ya know, the 7/8 had never met in the ECF before.

It's also telling that you would cite a football team playing in a single elimination playoff system.

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06-22-2011, 12:52 AM
  #578
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If you don't own home ice in the first round... your chance of winning the Stanley Cup is pretty much non-existent.

If the regular season wasn't indicative of much, then the above statement would not be irrefutable.
all that matters is that you qualify to the tournament, everything else can fall into place from there, that is why they play the games.

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06-22-2011, 12:53 AM
  #579
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How'd that end...? And lets ignore that it was, literally, a historic anomaly... since, ya know, the 7/8 had never met in the ECF before.

It's also telling that you would cite a football team playing in a single elimination playoff system.
better than the last time they got to the cup finals, in fact better than any other year when they posted better regular season totals... lol seriously wtf???

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06-22-2011, 12:56 AM
  #580
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all that matters is that you qualify to the tournament, everything else can fall into place from there, that is why they play the games.
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better than the last time they got to the cup finals, in fact better than any other year when they posted better regular season totals... lol seriously wtf???
Yeah, apparently you are unaware that winning with anything below the 4 seed doesn't happen. You can trot out the "that is why they play the games" sports cliches all you want... but the cold hard facts are that if you don't start the postseason on home ice, you're dead in the water.

The regular season matters. A lot.

Seeding matters. A lot.

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06-22-2011, 12:59 AM
  #581
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Only the Devils in 95 I believe won the Cup without ever having home ice. There is a reason why top 4 seeds usually win the Cup. Home ice matters. Now matter how you skew and disect the numbers.

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06-22-2011, 01:03 AM
  #582
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Yeah, apparently you are unaware that winning with anything below the 4 seed doesn't happen. You can trot out the "that is why they play the games" sports cliches all you want... but the cold hard facts are that if you don't start the postseason on home ice, you're dead in the water.

The regular season matters. A lot.

Seeding matters. A lot.

What? ok. Conference wise or League Wise???

Again, that is why they play the games... chief There's a big ****ing difference between Post Season sports and Regular Season games if you firmly believe otherwise, then I feel sorry for you as a sports and from an entertainment standpoint....

actually no I don't b.c you must get as fired the **** up over game 3 over the regular season as you do for game 7 of the Cup Finals b.c it all eventually , stats aside, will add up to the same thing right?

that must be why they pay the closers in baseball the big bucks of the relievers, no such thing as clutch or dealing with pressure, no, nope not a thing

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06-22-2011, 01:08 AM
  #583
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What? ok. Conference wise or League Wise???
In terms of the Stanley Cup, rarely does a team win that is below the 4 seed, as shown above.

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Again, that is why they play the games... chief There's a big ****ing difference between Post Season sports and Regular Season games if you firmly believe otherwise, then I feel sorry for you as a sports and from an entertainment standpoint....
You have less room for failure and more pressure, definitely. However, if a player is playing with an injury, regardless of whether it's the regular season or playoffs, that hinders his ability to play the game, he's likely not going to produce.

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actually no I don't b.c you must get as fired the **** up over game 3 of the regular season as you do for game 7 of the Cup Finals b.c it all eventually , stats aside, will add up to the same thing right?
Exaggeration. What we're saying is that the regular season has a say in setting up teams for a favorable playoff run. In order to win the Stanley Cup, you need some breaks. Getting home-ice advantage helps a lot.

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that must be why they pay the closers in baseball the big bucks of the relievers, no such thing as clutch or dealing with pressure, no, nope not a thing
Well, that's going into a completely different subject. In that case though, closers tend to be the best pitcher in the bullpen. There's a reason that you don't use JC Romero to close a game over Ryan Madson.

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06-22-2011, 01:09 AM
  #584
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What? ok. Conference wise or League Wise???
Conference. You can essentially cut the field in half when the playoffs start... the top 8 seeds are the ones with a real chance at the Cup, everyone else is fodder.

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Again, that is why they play the games... chief There's a big ****ing difference between Post Season sports and Regular Season games if you firmly believe otherwise, then I feel sorry for you as a sports and from an entertainment standpoint....
There is? What rules are different? Is the net a different size?

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actually no I don't b.c you must get as fired the **** up over game 3 over the regular season as you do for game 7 of the Cup Finals b.c it all eventually , stats aside, will add up to the same thing right?
If you are a very good regular season team/player then you will be a very good playoff team/player. All empirical data supports this. The Devs and Red Wings didn't win a bunch of Stanley Cups because they were "good playoff teams." They won a bunch of Stanley Cups because they were good teams, which was on display in both the regular season and playoffs.

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that must be why they pay the closers in baseball the big bucks of the relievers, no such thing as clutch or dealing with pressure, no, nope not a thing
Closers are horribly utilized in baseball, but that's another discussion... and, no, there is no such thing as clutch. There is, literally, ZERO evidence that clutch exists. Clutch is the same thing as the unicorn you have stabled in your backyard.

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06-22-2011, 01:14 AM
  #585
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If you are a very good regular season team/player then you will be a very good playoff team/player. All empirical data supports this. The Devs and Red Wings didn't win a bunch of Stanley Cups because they were "good playoff teams." They won a bunch of Stanley Cups because they were good teams, which was on display in both the regular season and playoffs.
one could make a damn good argument, that those teams were purpose built (player, by ****ing player) for the playoffs, which frankly is all that matters at the end of the day, but apart from that you're right.

It's a coaches and GM's job to find that and, get the best out of his players, in the post season to win, when it matters.

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06-22-2011, 01:18 AM
  #586
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one could make a damn good argument, that those teams were purpose built (player, by ****ing player) for the playoffs, which frankly is all that matters at the end of the day, but apart from that you're right.
No, they were built to be very good hockey teams... and they went out and proved that in both the regular season and the playoffs. Their regular seasons success translated to playoff success... because that's how it works. The only difference between the regular season and the playoffs is that you need to keep winning 4 out of 7. If you lose 4 out of 7, you're done... something that happens plenty of times during the regular season to teams (even very good ones).

Quote:
It's a coaches and GM's job to find that and, get the best out of his players, in the post season to win, when it matters.
Last year, which you just brought up as a GREAT year... we made the playoffs on the final day of the regular season. Are you suggesting that getting an OTL in November "didn't matter"?

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06-22-2011, 01:19 AM
  #587
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...and now we are talking about the role of coaches and GM's in playoff success?

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06-22-2011, 01:23 AM
  #588
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[QUOTE=Jester;33825791]No, they were built to be very good hockey teams... and they went out and proved that in both the regular season and the playoffs. Their regular seasons success translated to playoff success... because that's how it works. The only difference between the regular season and the playoffs is that you need to keep winning 4 out of 7. If you lose 4 out of 7, you're done... something that happens plenty of times during the regular season to teams (even very good ones).



Last year, which you just brought up as a GREAT year... we made the playoffs on the final day of the regular season. Are you suggesting that getting an OTL in November "didn't matter"?[/QUOTE]

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...and now we are talking about the role of coaches and GM's in playoff success?
You make the post season, anything can happen.


Really?, Gm's and Coaches are the foundation of a team or do we as fans get to pick players roles and practice times?

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06-22-2011, 01:27 AM
  #589
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No, I just don't get why you decided to add their role to the discussion, that's all.

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06-22-2011, 01:39 AM
  #590
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No, I just don't get why you decided to add their role to the discussion, that's all.
Hey there, Beef. You never answered the question in the other thread, did you? Heatley played and Snyder took warm-ups only if it's the year I'm thinking of.

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No, they were built to be very good hockey teams... and they went out and proved that in both the regular season and the playoffs. Their regular seasons success translated to playoff success... because that's how it works. The only difference between the regular season and the playoffs is that you need to keep winning 4 out of 7. If you lose 4 out of 7, you're done... something that happens plenty of times during the regular season to teams (even very good ones).



Last year, which you just brought up as a GREAT year... we made the playoffs on the final day of the regular season. Are you suggesting that getting an OTL in November "didn't matter"?[/QUOTE]



You make the post season, anything can happen.


Really?, Gm's and Coaches are the foundation of a team or do we as fans get to pick players roles and practice times?
OK, anything can happen. We got this "line of thought" you are riding. Try this:
Anything can happen with a draft pick. Would you rather have one pick in each of the seven rounds of the draft, or just get the last seven picks of the night?
After all, anything can happen. You make the draft, you can make the NHL. Why pick in the first round if you've got just as good of a chance of picking Eric Lindros or Mike Richards with the 208th pick, right?
Good night, all.

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06-22-2011, 07:38 AM
  #591
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Lol the lack of ability to both comprehend and present rational arguments in this thread is mind blowing.

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06-22-2011, 07:42 AM
  #592
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Burp

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06-22-2011, 07:50 AM
  #593
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I think we should arrange for a webinar of some kind to teach all of us on HF how to debate properly haha.

Things I notice on HF and in this thread in particular:

- a lack of ability to differentiate between a fact and an opinion
- a lack of ability to adequately address a fact when one is presented
- a lack of ability to use facts to support an argument

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06-22-2011, 07:55 AM
  #594
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I think we should arrange for a webinar of some kind to teach all of us on HF how to debate properly haha.

Things I notice on HF and in this thread in particular:

- a lack of ability to differentiate between a fact and an opinion
- a lack of ability to adequately address a fact when one is presented
- a lack of ability to use facts to support an argument
That's the great thing about sports, Its so Subjective!

That's the worst thing about sports, Its so Subjectie!

Facts are hard to come by in sports and especially on these boards. Its pretty much everyone trying to ram their opinion down each others throats ( see what i did there? pretty much gave you an opinion and not fact. SEE)

But yeah this thread was intresting the last page or so and things just got weird.

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06-22-2011, 08:05 AM
  #595
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That's the great thing about sports, Its so Subjective!

That's the worst thing about sports, Its so Subjectie!

Facts are hard to come by in sports and especially on these boards. Its pretty much everyone trying to ram their opinion down each others throats ( see what i did there? pretty much gave you an opinion and not fact. SEE)

But yeah this thread was intresting the last page or so and things just got weird.
Facts aren't hard to come by. There are a lot in this thread. Is easy to be "subjective" when you simply ignore objective facts when they fly in the face of your subjective opinion.

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06-22-2011, 08:05 AM
  #596
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What a ****ed up fanbase we have!

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06-22-2011, 08:17 AM
  #597
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That's the great thing about sports, Its so Subjective!

That's the worst thing about sports, Its so Subjectie!

Facts are hard to come by in sports and especially on these boards. Its pretty much everyone trying to ram their opinion down each others throats ( see what i did there? pretty much gave you an opinion and not fact. SEE)

But yeah this thread was intresting the last page or so and things just got weird.
Oh yea, I totally agree.

Most of the time, arguments are opinion based.

However, if someone provides a legitimate statistic, that is fact. Either provide another fact to counter it, or concede that point.

So let's say someone is arguing (sort of touching on something said earlier, but without having read everything) that it is critical to be one of the top 4 seeds because 90% of the time a top 4 seed wins the cup (making up numbers here) and in more recent history, it jumps to 95% because 4 of the times that a low seeded team accompished it were 30 years ago or more (again, I'm just inventing a fact here).

If I'm trying to dispute that I should either provide my own facts that show that their argument is flawed. Or perhaps concede that that is a fair point, but then present my own facts that maybe my team has certain qualities about it that show they are far more like the 10% of teams that accomplished it than not.

Or if Jester provides some stats showing Jeff Carter is not unlike a lot of other great players that struggled in their first ~40 playoff games, laughing at it and just saying "Jeff Carter is not as good as those players", is not an appropriate rebuttal. An appropriate rebuttal is, "I understand that, but I don't think it applies, and this is why". Hell, it's even COMPLETELY acceptable for your "why" to be entirely opinion based. But you then have to realize, that one argument holds more weight than another, and only time will tell.

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06-22-2011, 08:32 AM
  #598
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Oh yea, I totally agree.

Most of the time, arguments are opinion based.

However, if someone provides a legitimate statistic, that is fact. Either provide another fact to counter it, or concede that point.

So let's say someone is arguing (sort of touching on something said earlier, but without having read everything) that it is critical to be one of the top 4 seeds because 90% of the time a top 4 seed wins the cup (making up numbers here) and in more recent history, it jumps to 95% because 4 of the times that a low seeded team accompished it were 30 years ago or more (again, I'm just inventing a fact here).

If I'm trying to dispute that I should either provide my own facts that show that their argument is flawed. Or perhaps concede that that is a fair point, but then present my own facts that maybe my team has certain qualities about it that show they are far more like the 10% of teams that accomplished it than not.

Or if Jester provides some stats showing Jeff Carter is not unlike a lot of other great players that struggled in their first ~40 playoff games, laughing at it and just saying "Jeff Carter is not as good as those players", is not an appropriate rebuttal. An appropriate rebuttal is, "I understand that, but I don't think it applies, and this is why". Hell, it's even COMPLETELY acceptable for your "why" to be entirely opinion based. But you then have to realize, that one argument holds more weight than another, and only time will tell.

However stats dont even tell the whole story. You still see people argue over lemieux vs. gretzky or gretzky vs. Orr.

Carter scored 46 goals, but he only scored that much cause he shot a lot. In a way stats make things even more complicated.


and yes we do have a ****ed up fan base

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06-22-2011, 08:35 AM
  #599
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However stats dont even tell the whole story. You still see people argue over lemieux vs. gretzky or gretzky vs. Orr.

Carter scored 46 goals, but he only scored that much cause he shot a lot. In a way stats make things even more complicated.


and yes we do have a ****ed up fan base
I guess Ovechkin's goal totals aren't impressive to you, then.

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06-22-2011, 08:36 AM
  #600
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However stats dont even tell the whole story. You still see people argue over lemieux vs. gretzky or gretzky vs. Orr.

Carter scored 46 goals, but he only scored that much cause he shot a lot. In a way stats make things even more complicated.


and yes we do have a ****ed up fan base
Yea it doesn't tell the entire story however, the nice thing about stats are that they are indeed, facts and you can't dispute that they happened.

If someone were to disagree with those stats, the appropraite thing to do would be to dispute how applicable they are. If you think comparing Gretzky to Orr doesn't tell the entire story because one was a forward and one was a D, that's legitimate. But there are more stats that you could present that support that claim...so do so.

And if Jeff Carter only scored 46 goals because he shot a lot, why doesn't everyone just shoot that much?

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