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Old
06-11-2011, 05:54 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
It could be all that it was was to iron out poor NCAA habits. I just don't trust him. It's not an insult to the Maple Leafs, and had he stayed with Boston, I'd say the same thing. I'm no longer convinced that he'll be able to put the tools together well enough to become a top 6 center. I may be wrong. In fact, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't want the Blues chancing someone like Oshie on this risk, especially as Oshie already could be a top 6 center. It doesn't make sense for the Blues, in my opinion, to acquire more risk by getting a younger player. Especially someone like Colborne, who I no longer trust.
That's why a prospect is a prospect. Most rational Toronto fans know that Colborne may not ever reach his boom potential of a top 6 center. If he doesn't reach that its not a huge deal, at worst I can see him being a 3rd line center. As a 6'5 forward who can skate he will stick in the NHL at some point. I think he will be an NHL player but how he will develop its a wash. Sounds like you have some Colborne trust issues though?

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06-11-2011, 05:59 PM
  #52
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Check the stats. Oshie has averaged 0.66 points/game. Kulemin 0.55 points/game. How does Kulemin average more points per game. Oshie may not be as tall as Kulemin, but plays a much more physical game. I think they have similar value now, but I think Oshie has a higher ceiling if he can stay healthy. Oshie may like to party too much, but he is one of the hardest workers at the rink. I think he will put his immaturity issues behind him starting this next season.
Last season
Kulemin:
30 goals/ 0.365 gpg
57 points/0.695 ppg
101 hits/ 1.231 hpg

Oshie:
12 goals/ 0.244 gpg
34 points/ 0.693 ppg
71 hits/ 1.448 hpg

How does Oshie have a higher ceiling? Kulie had an amazing season and is just starting top scratch the surface of his potential. He won the RSL(KHL) MVP at 20 years old, he is bigger and has a better shot.

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06-11-2011, 05:59 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Man Hole Inspector View Post
That's why a prospect is a prospect. Most rational Toronto fans know that Colborne may not ever reach his boom potential of a top 6 center. If he doesn't reach that its not a huge deal, at worst I can see him being a 3rd line center. As a 6'5 forward who can skate he will stick in the NHL at some point. I think he will be an NHL player but how he will develop its a wash
I agree. I think he will definitely be a bottom 6 center. Probably 3rd line. But Oshie is already there. The Blues do not need to get younger. Oshie is a vital part of the rebuild, and trading him away for a downgrade in MacArthur (in my opinion) and then a prospect and a pick would not make sense for the Blues. The only way Oshie is traded is as part of a package to snag a #1 center.

My views on Colborne are not the only reason I dislike this trade. Sure, I don't think Colborne will amount to a #1 Center, and I'm iffy as to whether or not he'll amount to a #2 Center. This is just my opinion. But even if he was a surefire lock on becoming a #2 Center down the road, I'd dislike this trade, because the Blues shouldn't be looking down the road.

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06-11-2011, 06:01 PM
  #54
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Career

Hits per game....

Kulemin...1.33

Oshie...1.57

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06-11-2011, 06:03 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
It could be all that it was was to iron out poor NCAA habits. I just don't trust him. It's not an insult to the Maple Leafs, and had he stayed with Boston, I'd say the same thing. I'm no longer convinced that he'll be able to put the tools together well enough to become a top 6 center. I may be wrong. In fact, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't want the Blues chancing someone like Oshie on this risk, especially as Oshie already could be a top 6 center. It doesn't make sense for the Blues, in my opinion, to acquire more risk by getting a younger player. Especially someone like Colborne, who I no longer trust.
But what if Oshie doesn't ever put it all together to be a top 6 center? Haven't we been waiting the past 3 seasons?

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06-11-2011, 06:05 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by Cyris View Post
Last season
Kulemin:
30 goals/ 0.365 gpg
57 points/0.695 ppg
101 hits/ 1.231 hpg

Oshie:
12 goals/ 0.244 gpg
34 points/ 0.693 ppg
71 hits/ 1.448 hpg

How does Oshie have a higher ceiling? Kulie had an amazing season and is just starting top scratch the surface of his potential. He won the RSL(KHL) MVP at 20 years old, he is bigger and has a better shot.
Oshie was also injured, and if you watched Blues games, wasn't quite as sharp, quick, or aggressive/energetic as he normally was when he returned. I don't mean this as an insult, but it seemed that way to Blues fans. To add to this point, Oshie had had 9 points in 10 games at the start of the season. That means that he had only 25 points in the 39 games he played following the injury. In his first eleven games back, he tallied only 5 points. Then, after being moved down to 3rd line center due to injuries to Vladamir Sobotka, among many others (resulting in players such as Chris Porter, Adam Cracknell, TJ Hensick, BJ Crombeen playing with Oshie), Oshie experienced many scoring droughts lasting 3-7 games. This was not a result of poor play by Oshie, rather by the inability of his wingers to finish.

The Blues also were hurt up front when he came back, leaving Oshie on a line with players like Adam Cracknell as his wingers.

Oshie also was a sparkplug it seemed for Berglund's increase in production. I think this year, if Oshie stays healthy, then he'll be easily above 60 points, possibly reaching 70 (doubtful to me though).


Last edited by bluesfan94: 06-11-2011 at 06:16 PM.
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06-11-2011, 06:05 PM
  #57
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Oshie has had serious injuries to the same ankle twice now which could lead to chronic problems. Kule has never had a serious injury.

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06-11-2011, 06:08 PM
  #58
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The Blues don't need more draft picks? Don't make things up just to put down the proposal. Why wouldn't St. Louis want the most draft picks possible in a very strong draft? Packaging extra 2nd's and 3rd's will allow you to move up in the draft to pick off some high end talent in the top 15 next year.
WHAT? This is a very weak draft, far from a strong one.

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06-11-2011, 06:10 PM
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But what if Oshie doesn't ever put it all together to be a top 6 center? Haven't we been waiting the past 3 seasons?
I'm infinitely more willing to take a chance on someone who has produced on a top 6 line in the NHL than someone who struggled in the AHL. Oshie, arguably, could already be a top 6 center, or at least a winger.
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Oshie has had serious injuries to the same ankle twice now which could lead to chronic problems. Kule has never had a serious injury.
One was a high ankle sprain in 2008. He showed no ill effects last year. The other was a broken ankle resulting from awkwardly falling on it after being pulled down in a scrum. I think given a full offseason to heal, his ankle will be fine next season. I guess we'll see.

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06-11-2011, 06:14 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
Oshie was also injured, and if you watched Blues games, wasn't quite as sharp, quick, or aggressive/energetic as he normally was when he returned. I don't mean this as an insult, but it seemed that way to Blues fans. The Blues also were hurt up front when he came back, leaving Oshie on a line with players like Adam Cracknell as his wingers. Oshie also was a sparkplug it seemed for Berglund's increase in production. I think this year, if Oshie stays healthy, then he'll be easily above 60 points, possibly reaching 70 (doubtful to me though).
If he stays healthy is a good question he has had the same body part injured in 2 of his 3 NHL seasons and it hurts his value somewhat.

Kule had 59 points last season and is still developing. It would be a huge disappointment if he didn't get 60 points next season. 70 is definitly reasonable if the Leafs get a number 1 center giving us 2 solid lines to take the pressure of his line.

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06-11-2011, 06:21 PM
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If he stays healthy is a good question he has had the same body part injured in 2 of his 3 NHL seasons and it hurts his value somewhat.

Kule had 59 points last season and is still developing. It would be a huge disappointment if he didn't get 60 points next season. 70 is definitly reasonable if the Leafs get a number 1 center giving us 2 solid lines to take the pressure of his line.
If the Blues get a number 1 center that'd give us 3 solid lines relieving the pressure on Oshie, and also giving him better players to play with as a result of the trickle down effect.

For example, if the Blues were to sign Brad Richards, admittedly a pipe dream, our lines may look something like this:

Andy McDonald - Brad Richards - David Backes
David Perron - Patrick Berglund - Chris Stewart
TJ Oshie - Alexander Steen - Matt D'Agostini
Ryan Reaves - Vladamir Sobotka - BJ Crombeen

The top 3 lines would all be viable scoring lines.

True, Oshie has injured his ankle in two seasons. One was for a relatively short amount of time (something like 15 games in 08). But I tend to not be worried about Oshie's ankle, as the most recent occurrence seems to be the result of a freak accident. Maybe he won't bounce back. I think he will, especially after this offseason, where I don't doubt that he's working hard to make sure that that ankle is 100%.

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06-11-2011, 06:26 PM
  #62
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WHAT? This is a very weak draft, far from a strong one.
Did you even read the original proposal?

I included a 2012 2nd round pick, which is projected to be a very strong and deep draft.

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06-11-2011, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bluesfan94 View Post
I'm infinitely more willing to take a chance on someone who has produced on a top 6 line in the NHL than someone who struggled in the AHL. Oshie, arguably, could already be a top 6 center, or at least a winger.


One was a high ankle sprain in 2008. He showed no ill effects last year. The other was a broken ankle resulting from awkwardly falling on it after being pulled down in a scrum. I think given a full offseason to heal, his ankle will be fine next season. I guess we'll see.
You can't really say that Oshie "could" be a top 6 center then go onto dismiss Colborne. Oshie has way more value than him its undeniable, but if your going to make predictions on players make sure its objectively. Injuries have brought down Oshie but imo he's definitely under-performed offensively regardless of his great two-way game. He should develop into a nice second line center down the road, everyone is just waiting for when hes going to break out from Tim Connolly syndrome.

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06-11-2011, 06:32 PM
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Did you even read the original proposal?

I included a 2012 2nd round pick, which is projected to be a very strong and deep draft.
That makes it even worse. The projections for that draft won't mean anything for months down the road because everything changes so much. I always think its a bad idea to trade for picks in later years. Look at the NFL, a team will trade a first round pick the following year for a second round pick in the current year. Picks in following years can not be valued the same because of the unknown of where it will be and the unknown of the prospects available.

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06-11-2011, 06:34 PM
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I agree. I think he will definitely be a bottom 6 center. Probably 3rd line. But Oshie is already there. The Blues do not need to get younger. Oshie is a vital part of the rebuild, and trading him away for a downgrade in MacArthur (in my opinion) and then a prospect and a pick would not make sense for the Blues. The only way Oshie is traded is as part of a package to snag a #1 center.

My views on Colborne are not the only reason I dislike this trade. Sure, I don't think Colborne will amount to a #1 Center, and I'm iffy as to whether or not he'll amount to a #2 Center. This is just my opinion. But even if he was a surefire lock on becoming a #2 Center down the road, I'd dislike this trade, because the Blues shouldn't be looking down the road.
MacArthur takes alot of unnecessary heat on these boards. This guy did after all just put up 62 point campaign. Since coming into the league he's increased his point totals every season. Does he have the same value has Oshie? At the moment definitely not, but if Oshie fails to breakout next season and MacArthur hits 60+ points again perceptions could change. MacArthur is older than Oshie by a year and a half btw.

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06-11-2011, 06:34 PM
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You can't really say that Oshie "could" be a top 6 center then go onto dismiss Colborne. Oshie has way more value than him its undeniable, but if your going to make predictions on players make sure its objectively. Injuries have brought down Oshie but imo he's definitely under-performed offensively regardless of his great two-way game. He should develop into a nice second line center down the road, everyone is just waiting for when hes going to break out from Tim Connolly syndrome.
I'm saying that Oshie could be a top 6 center now as in I think he could go to some teams and center their second line. Colborne, on the other hand, has to develop to even be though of as a team's second center right now. I think it is infinitely more likely for Oshie to be a second line center, if you disagree with his ability to center some teams' second lines currently, than it is for Colborne, simply because Oshie has had NHL success and Colborne has had, for whatever reason, difficulty adjusting to the AHL, a league that Oshie had the talent to skip.

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06-11-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Man Hole Inspector View Post
You can't really say that Oshie "could" be a top 6 center then go onto dismiss Colborne. Oshie has way more value than him its undeniable, but if your going to make predictions on players make sure its objectively. Injuries have brought down Oshie but imo he's definitely under-performed offensively regardless of his great two-way game. He should develop into a nice second line center down the road, everyone is just waiting for when hes going to break out from Tim Connolly syndrome.
TJ Oshie 2010-2011 82 game pace:

20 goals
38 assists
58 points

That doesn't seem like definitely under-performing.

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06-11-2011, 06:43 PM
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I'm saying that Oshie could be a top 6 center now as in I think he could go to some teams and center their second line. Colborne, on the other hand, has to develop to even be though of as a team's second center right now. I think it is infinitely more likely for Oshie to be a second line center, if you disagree with his ability to center some teams' second lines currently, than it is for Colborne, simply because Oshie has had NHL success and Colborne has had, for whatever reason, difficulty adjusting to the AHL, a league that Oshie had the talent to skip.
On other teams sure whatever you say. He's a top 6 center on the Blues right now and has failed to produce offensively. Will his offensive capabilities from the NCAA carry over to the NHL ever who know? I could say Kessel can turn into a top scoring winger in the NHL if he had a decent center but its all "what ifs". While Oshie has a ton "potential" his offensive instincts haven't been tapped. As far as Colborne I think we need to give him a season in the NHL before disregarding his play. I can't see Toronto moving MacArthur + Colborne in a deal for Oshie if were going by potential alone. You can make a case for all three player being solid top 6 players down the road

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06-11-2011, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
TJ Oshie 2010-2011 82 game pace:

20 goals
38 assists
58 points

That doesn't seem like definitely under-performing.
The tiny problem is he didn't put up those numbers. Being on pace for a good season and actually having a good season is totally different. Stamkos would of put up 61 goals this season if he stayed on pace, Bozak would of put up 41 assists in his rookie season last season. You project all you want but it hasn't happen yet. Will it happen? I think so for sure but there's no telling

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06-11-2011, 06:54 PM
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These typers of players are the ones that you need when you wanna make a cup run. Adding Oshie to our arsenal would just make that better.

If we land Richards getting a guy like Oshie would just make us that more solid, you can never have to much depth.
It's my opinion that in a salary cap era, a team can have too much depth. Where would you play Oshie in Toronto if we had Richards? Would he be our #3 centerman? Or would you break up our highly productive second line to squeeze him in as a top 6 winger? Oshie doesn't fit in Toronto, neither does Jeff Carter, Sam Gagner, Zach Bogosian, Shea Weber, Brain Campbell, or any other 5 million dollar+ player who isn't a playmaking #1 centerman.

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06-11-2011, 06:55 PM
  #71
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It could be all that it was was to iron out poor NCAA habits. I just don't trust him. It's not an insult to the Maple Leafs, and had he stayed with Boston, I'd say the same thing. I'm no longer convinced that he'll be able to put the tools together well enough to become a top 6 center. I may be wrong. In fact, I hope I'm wrong, but I don't want the Blues chancing someone like Oshie on this risk, especially as Oshie already could be a top 6 center. It doesn't make sense for the Blues, in my opinion, to acquire more risk by getting a younger player. Especially someone like Colborne, who I no longer trust.
A big part of the colborne puzzle people are missin is the influence of Dallas Eakins. He really helped his game out teaching Joe to stand in front of the net and use his body more. Obviously he's got some work to do to get to where he can be (1st line center) but he's well on his way and showed great strides of improvement towards the end of the season.

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06-11-2011, 07:42 PM
  #72
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Start with Kulemin.
and you are giving us Oshie and ????

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06-11-2011, 07:43 PM
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I'm not saying the Blues wouldn't receive better offers, most likely they would be offered a high draft pick this year and a decent player. I offered this from a Toronto perspective, seeing as how MacArthur would be the odd winger out in a trade for another winger, and our highest draft pick this year is the 25th. I just think Mac, Colborne and a 2nd is something Burke would realistically offer. He wouldn't sell the farm for Oshie because it doesn't fill our #1 need, although he would be a nice addition.

The Blues don't need more draft picks? Don't make things up just to put down the proposal. Why wouldn't St. Louis want the most draft picks possible in a very strong draft? Packaging extra 2nd's and 3rd's will allow you to move up in the draft to pick off some high end talent in the top 15 next year.
We have high end talent prospects, you need all the draft picks you can get, you're team is way behind us in development at this point and this idea that all you need is someone to pad Kessel's goals to be contenders is getting as old as jump starting the rebuild for Toronto.

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06-11-2011, 07:54 PM
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If he stays healthy is a good question he has had the same body part injured in 2 of his 3 NHL seasons and it hurts his value somewhat.

Kule had 59 points last season and is still developing. It would be a huge disappointment if he didn't get 60 points next season. 70 is definitly reasonable if the Leafs get a number 1 center giving us 2 solid lines to take the pressure of his line.
You're the only one who claims that Sami Pahlsson dropping his body weight onto Oshie and breaking his ankle has anything to do with being injury prone or high risk. No doctor, professional, or media of any kind has ever said he was at risk so stop blowing smoke up people's ***** because you like Kulemin more as a player.

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06-11-2011, 07:58 PM
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We have high end talent prospects, you need all the draft picks you can get, you're team is way behind us in development at this point and this idea that all you need is someone to pad Kessel's goals to be contenders is getting as old as jump starting the rebuild for Toronto.

Toronto needed a top line center the minute Sundin left regardless of boosting Kessel goal totals. In terms of contending were realistically a #1 Center/Top #4 away + solid goaltending (Reimer). If Richards is signed this offseason were really not that far off; Its a pipe dream though..

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