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Checking lines next couple years

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Old
07-20-2004, 12:10 PM
  #1
dawes
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Checking lines next couple years

Anybody like any of these for our 3rd-4th lines


Murray-Betts-Hollwig
Wiseman-Heilman-Ortmeyer

 
Old
07-20-2004, 12:21 PM
  #2
Radek27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dawes
Anybody like any of these for our 3rd-4th lines


Murray-Betts-Hollwig
Wiseman-Heilman-Ortmeyer
Ortmeyer right now is a 4th liner. He hustles and works hard, but has zero offensive game right now. I hope he shows some improvement from last year cause to me he looked like a 4th liner. Shows how desperate Ranger fans are for prospects when Ortmeyer is considered the FUTURE.

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07-20-2004, 12:57 PM
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I wouldn't like them...

first, I think Hollweg's a longshot to make the NHL and at a minimum has to prove himself in the AHL prior to being penciled into the NHL at this point. Murray I hope can be a third liner. He's going to have to get his scoring nose up a notch if he's going to play on the third line though. Helminen intrigues me a bit - I'm looking forward to seeing if he can improve offensively over last season while maintaining his steady defensive capabilities. Ortmeyer is a fourth liner who can kill penalties and fill in on a third line in case of injuries/poor play. Wiseman likely makes it as a top-two liner (which I have my doubts) or is a journeyman that jumps around. Betts I know little of.

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07-20-2004, 01:15 PM
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BobMarleyNYR
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Betts is good... back checks, has speed, good on faceoffs, defensively sound, good in the corners... the difference between Betts and Ortmeyer, as of now, is that Betts CAN provide complementary offense... he's a Mike Sillinger type. IMO, he's going to be an excellent 3rd line center, or he will flop... I don't think there's a gray area for him.

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07-20-2004, 01:30 PM
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Larry Melnyk
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Let's not squash Ortmeyer so fast and push him down to 4th line already...We have to remember that last year was his 1st year in the NHL and given the defenseless mentality and performance that ran amok in NY, he was a breath of fresh air...And you can bet that he was focusing almost entirely on defense....Even with that, he still showed more offensive skill then the likes of Jaime Lundmark...

OK, that little swipe out of the way, I think Ortmeyer right now is a 3rd-4th line tweener for the NHL but probably good enough for 3rd line on the Rangers..No need to discuss his hustle, hitting, defense, skating, on-ice leadership and shot blocking because it's all there..It comes down to offense or just the willingness to play more offensively..I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that this year from a more confident and relaxed Ortmeyer who wins a spot on the 3rd line

As for the other candidates, I don't see Murray as anything more than a 4th line banger right now..I don't think much of his skating, defense, or offense now but he to might be more confident this year......

Prior to his head injury I always liked Hollweg, and liked him more then guys like Murray...Time will tell on this one but he has to work himslef up the ladder...F

On Helminen, who knows? I have heard comparison to former Wolverines Ortmeyer and Madden...

I asgree with Marley's take on Betts and agree that Betts could/should be a 3rd liner, but only if he can stay healthy, which he hasn't been able to do...Also, if Holik is the checking/defensive C, can Betts play the W spot....

And even with all these players, it's a good bet that a vet is signed for this role too..

Damn, it should be very interesting if we ever have a training camp...

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07-20-2004, 01:45 PM
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Fletch
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If Betts is that good...

why does he and Greg Moore and McLennan come for Simon? Simon was nice, but was a third liner, and Calgary gives up a guy as good as an NHLer (Ortmeyer) defensively, but even better offensively. Plus a decent college prospect, who may not turn out to be anything much, but it's still a decent return.

Larry, I do agree, but the guy just doesn't have great hands. He's meant to do a lot of simple things, or at least that's what I saw. There's nothing much to his shot or offensive game. Just plain vanilla. I won't argue one bit on the kid's heart, determination and ability defensively. And to be a third liner, you'd want about 10-15 goals out of a guy, and I don't see that in Ortmeyer. But then again, on this Rangers team where a guy who may score 10-15 goals on that line would suck defensively, one may wish to go with Ortmeyer.

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Old
07-20-2004, 01:46 PM
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BobMarleyNYR
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It'd be a big camp... and probably one of the most competitive ever.

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07-20-2004, 01:57 PM
  #8
Mr. Lack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Melnyk
Let's not squash Ortmeyer so fast and push him down to 4th line already...We have to remember that last year was his 1st year in the NHL and given the defenseless mentality and performance that ran amok in NY, he was a breath of fresh air...And you can bet that he was focusing almost entirely on defense....Even with that, he still showed more offensive skill then the likes of Jaime Lundmark...

OK, that little swipe out of the way, I think Ortmeyer right now is a 3rd-4th line tweener for the NHL but probably good enough for 3rd line on the Rangers..No need to discuss his hustle, hitting, defense, skating, on-ice leadership and shot blocking because it's all there..It comes down to offense or just the willingness to play more offensively..I wouldn't be surprised if we saw that this year from a more confident and relaxed Ortmeyer who wins a spot on the 3rd line

As for the other candidates, I don't see Murray as anything more than a 4th line banger right now..I don't think much of his skating, defense, or offense now but he to might be more confident this year......

Prior to his head injury I always liked Hollweg, and liked him more then guys like Murray...Time will tell on this one but he has to work himslef up the ladder...F

On Helminen, who knows? I have heard comparison to former Wolverines Ortmeyer and Madden...

I asgree with Marley's take on Betts and agree that Betts could/should be a 3rd liner, but only if he can stay healthy, which he hasn't been able to do...Also, if Holik is the checking/defensive C, can Betts play the W spot....

And even with all these players, it's a good bet that a vet is signed for this role too..

Damn, it should be very interesting if we ever have a training camp...
Helminen got compared to Madden? I have yet to see anyone mention Madden when Helminen's name was brought up.

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07-20-2004, 02:03 PM
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Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
why does he and Greg Moore and McLennan come for Simon? Simon was nice, but was a third liner, and Calgary gives up a guy as good as an NHLer (Ortmeyer) defensively, but even better offensively. Plus a decent college prospect, who may not turn out to be anything much, but it's still a decent return.

Larry, I do agree, but the guy just doesn't have great hands. He's meant to do a lot of simple things, or at least that's what I saw. There's nothing much to his shot or offensive game. Just plain vanilla. I won't argue one bit on the kid's heart, determination and ability defensively. And to be a third liner, you'd want about 10-15 goals out of a guy, and I don't see that in Ortmeyer. But then again, on this Rangers team where a guy who may score 10-15 goals on that line would suck defensively, one may wish to go with Ortmeyer.
Fletch---- i think with Betts it is his injury history. The guy has always been hurt and maybe the flames felt that, despite his potential, he will be one of those players that will never stay healthy (i.e., Todd Harvey) so they gave him up in the name of you gotta give to get (Simon--who they really wanted)...Hopefully, for the Rangers, it will come back and burn the Flames...

And I agree that Ortmeyer doesn't have good hands, but I did see him blow by a few D-men on the outside only to be unable to convert...But with his game, he just might be able to score those 10-15 goals in the ugly fashion with some pounding linemates....and that would be fine with me...

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07-20-2004, 02:05 PM
  #10
Larry Melnyk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Lack
Helminen got compared to Madden? I have yet to see anyone mention Madden when Helminen's name was brought up.
Seriously, I read that somewhere but just can't remember where..it might have been his coach Berenson.....

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Old
07-20-2004, 02:27 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
why does he and Greg Moore and McLennan come for Simon? Simon was nice, but was a third liner, and Calgary gives up a guy as good as an NHLer (Ortmeyer) defensively, but even better offensively. Plus a decent college prospect, who may not turn out to be anything much, but it's still a decent return.

Larry, I do agree, but the guy just doesn't have great hands. He's meant to do a lot of simple things, or at least that's what I saw. There's nothing much to his shot or offensive game. Just plain vanilla. I won't argue one bit on the kid's heart, determination and ability defensively. And to be a third liner, you'd want about 10-15 goals out of a guy, and I don't see that in Ortmeyer. But then again, on this Rangers team where a guy who may score 10-15 goals on that line would suck defensively, one may wish to go with Ortmeyer.
Betts was injured and calgary needed warm bodies. rumors said there were a lot of teams after simon at the deadline which i can believe. Don't you think Calgary got good value in the trade? With Kipper and Turke, Mclennen was just driftwood in the trade and G.Moore is just a marginal prospect so trade-wise, not worth too much. Betts is a great FOURTH line center. i don't know if he'd make a good 3rd line center though.

Ortmeyer is pretty darn good on the defensive so i think he, Helmenin and Murray will look like an amazing 3rd line. not only for checking but for going against big lines. I thought I read that Red said Helmenin is better than Madden was when they were respectively junoirs. no idea were i read it so take it with a grain of salt.

murray-helmenin-ortmeyer
betts + (we have plenty of prospects at this point so it's tough to say who'll make it and who won't - who knows if a Joey Crabb or Rich Kozak turns out to be our future 4th line winger?)

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07-20-2004, 02:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
Helminen intrigues me a bit - I'm looking forward to seeing if he can improve offensively over last season while maintaining his steady defensive capabilities.
Helminen was 2nd in goal scoring for Michigan last season (and 5th in points). His offense isn't a concern. He's going to be a very pleasant surprise for Ranger fans.

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07-20-2004, 02:50 PM
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His offense, however, is complementary third line stuff... his defense is amazing. Next to Holik, IMO. Faster than Balej, Kirill Koltsov and Dvorak combined...

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07-20-2004, 02:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Radek27
Ortmeyer right now is a 4th liner. He hustles and works hard, but has zero offensive game right now. I hope he shows some improvement from last year cause to me he looked like a 4th liner. Shows how desperate Ranger fans are for prospects when Ortmeyer is considered the FUTURE.
where did u ever see anyone say that ortmeyer is the future , well it seems to be u mean scoring wise, but if u use common sense , yes he is our future in the point he will be a good leader on this team without a doubt, and u make a statemnt about him being a 4th but leave murray in the 3rd. murray played like 7 games for nyr and u leave him third liner. well im high on murray anyways as a defionite third liner maybe second on the left wing. and about ortmeyer he is is an excellent player very smrt defensively and an excellent pk'er, excellent shot blocker, hard working and always hustling, players like that make a team win, energy and effort . so basically in your comments make not much sense ortmeyer and murray are future leaders of this team both are 3 rds liners. plus u are saying cause a guy is not offensively talented he is a 4th liner, nshows what u know about the game of hockey, look at the role mccarty plays on det he had some good 12 -15 goals easons but gets play on all the lines, not comparing him to ortmeyer , but what im saying is the big goal guys dont make teams win its the ortmeyers and murrays, murray resembles darren mccarty to me. but ortmeyer is a 3rd liner and murray a 3rd/ maybe could be used on 2nd also i believe

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07-20-2004, 03:03 PM
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I watched Ortmeyer in college some and I don't ever see him being much of a scoring threat. Perhaps if everything aligned correctly and he had creative team mates he might top the 10 goal mark, but I think for the most part you have him on your team as a PK guy, 3rd/4th winger.

As to him needing to be a 10-15 goal scorer to be on the third line...here are the following 7th,8th and 9th best goalscoring forwards for each team last year. It doesn't take into account injuries or trades, but it does give some idea.

Anaheim - MacDonald 9, Pahlsson 8, Krog 6
Atlanta - Heatley 13, Robitaille 11, Aubin and Vigier 10
Boston - Lapointe 15, Green 11, Donato/Axelsson 6
Buffalo - Kotalik/Hecht 15, Brown 9, Roy 9
Calgary - Clark 10, Conroy 8, Reinprecht 7
Carolina - Francis/K Adams 10, C Adams 7, Boulerice 6
Chicago - Nichol 7, Zhamnov 7, Daze/Radulov/Moen/Vandenbussche 4
Colorado - Kariya 11, Moore 5, Nikolishin 5
Columbus - Marchant 9, Wright 9, Cassels 6
Dallas - Barnes 11, Dimaio 9, Young 8
Detroit - Zetterberg/Holmstrom 15, Whitney 14, Maltby 14
Edmonton - Dvorak/Horcoff 15, Hemsky 12, Isbister/Stoll 10
Florida - Huselius 10, Hagman 10, Cullen/Nilson/Audette 6
Los Angeles - Laperriere 10, Camalleri 9, Avery 9
Minnesota - Laaksonen/Walz 12, Chouinard 11, Dupuis 11
Montreal - Bulis 13, Begin 10, Sundstrom 8
Nashville - Hall 13, Johansson 12, Sullivan/Arkhipov 9
New Jersey - Pandolfo 13, Madden 12, Langenbrunner 10
New York (I) - Asham 12, Peca 11, Bates/Ronning/Scatchard 9
New York (R) - Rucinsky 13, Barnaby 12, Carter/Lindros 10
Ottawa - Bonk 12, White 9, Neil 8
Philadelphia - Kapanen 12, Primeau 7, Williams/Brashear 6
Phoenix - Radivojevic 9, Sillinger/Comrie/Taffe 8
Pittsburgh - Kostopolous/Koltsov 9, Bradley 7, Holzinger/Pirijeta 6
San Jose - Thornton 13, Damphousse 12, Primeau/Dimitrakos 9
St Louis - Rycroft 9, Nikulas 7, Danton 7
Tampa Bay - Fedotenko 17, Taylor 7, Afansenkov 6
Toronto - Antropov 13, Renberg 12, Reichel 11
Vancouver - Chubarov/King 12, Cooke 11, H Sedin 11
Washington - Willsie/Semin 10, Miller 9, Grier 8

In summary, while there are plenty of 10-15 goal scorers in there, there's also a fair number that are below that mark. Of course if they put a line of Murray-Betts-Ortmeyer out there you might be really struggling, but if Ortmeyer is used with one or two other players with more offensive upside he might be okay on the third line as a defensive conscience.

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Old
07-20-2004, 05:01 PM
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Radek27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
where did u ever see anyone say that ortmeyer is the future , well it seems to be u mean scoring wise, but if u use common sense , yes he is our future in the point he will be a good leader on this team without a doubt, and u make a statemnt about him being a 4th but leave murray in the 3rd. murray played like 7 games for nyr and u leave him third liner. well im high on murray anyways as a defionite third liner maybe second on the left wing. and about ortmeyer he is is an excellent player very smrt defensively and an excellent pk'er, excellent shot blocker, hard working and always hustling, players like that make a team win, energy and effort . so basically in your comments make not much sense ortmeyer and murray are future leaders of this team both are 3 rds liners. plus u are saying cause a guy is not offensively talented he is a 4th liner, nshows what u know about the game of hockey, look at the role mccarty plays on det he had some good 12 -15 goals easons but gets play on all the lines, not comparing him to ortmeyer , but what im saying is the big goal guys dont make teams win its the ortmeyers and murrays, murray resembles darren mccarty to me. but ortmeyer is a 3rd liner and murray a 3rd/ maybe could be used on 2nd also i believe
I never said anything about Murray........all I said was Ortmeyer is a 4th line player and there is nothing wrong with that. And I heard that he was our FUTURE when he was given that award at the Garden on the last game of the season. Ortmeyer had some nice scoring chances and his shot needs a lot of work. And how good of a PKer is he when we had the word PK in the league? Yeah I know one guy can't do it alone, but our PK has just been horrible the last............decade.

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