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Old
06-12-2011, 10:37 PM
  #1
BenThatcher
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Kotalik and Hagman

How do we get rid of these two bums? What are our options?

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06-12-2011, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by BenThatcher View Post
How do we get rid of these two bums? What are our options?
If they are not in the Flames plans moving forward.....

1. Trade them - I don't think Kotalik could be traded, but I think Hagman could be.

2. Buy them out - Don't like this idea, sure it would reduce their cap hits this season, but next season instead of coming off the books completely, we'd still be stuck with some money against the cap.

3. Send them through waivers next fall, and if they don't want to play for our AHL affiliate, then they can go play next season in Europe.


EDIT: IMO, option #3 will be the one used for Kotalik, as for Hagman, I think he'll either be traded or end up playing out next season with the Flames.

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06-12-2011, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by BurnEmUp View Post
If they are not in the Flames plans moving forward.....

1. Trade them - I don't think Kotalik could be traded, but I think Hagman could be.

2. Buy them out - Don't like this idea, sure it would reduce their cap hits this season, but next season instead of coming off the books completely, we'd still be stuck with some money against the cap.

3. Send them through waivers next fall, and if they don't want to play for our AHL affiliate, then they can go play next season in Europe.
Thanks for your response!

1) I don't think anyone would take their salary, and if they did, we'd have to take some bad salary back

2) Ownership is too cheap to do this. You don't get to be an oil and gas tycoon by giving out free money, know what I'm saying?

3) If they go back to Europe, that means we don't have to pay them right? So of course they'll report to our AHL team, these bums want to get paid. I don't see the owner being too happy about that much salary in the AHL.

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06-12-2011, 11:08 PM
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Both are poised for 30+ goal seasons. I say we keep 'em.

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06-12-2011, 11:47 PM
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Johnny Hoxville
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I wouldn't classify Hagman as a bum, Kotalik definitely. And Stajan is not a bum either but he simply is not a good fit on the Flames. Kotalik and Stajan are much bigger problems than Hagman who actually still a useful hockey player. The general consensus is that Kotalik is gone to Europe next season, I believe we will still have to pay him as we are "loaning" to another team but it should not count against the cap. I think you try anything and everything to try and trade Hags and Stajan. If that is not successful, so be it. Hagman's contract is up at the end of next season along with a bunch of others. Stajan really is the only long term contract that is a big problem for the Flames, but with the additional cap space we will be getting next season we can deal with it if needed. If a deal comes up where the Flames need cap space, one or both of Stajan and Hagman can be put on waivers and then sent down to the AHL if not claimed.

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06-12-2011, 11:58 PM
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Kotalik, Stajan, Hagman are Flames for life...nobody stupid enough to pick them up...

That doesnt mean they have to play for the Flames...they just need to get paid by the Flames.

Sutter lost his marble when he obtained these gems in a moment of panic.

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06-13-2011, 12:00 AM
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I wouldn't classify Hagman as a bum, Kotalik definitely. And Stajan is not a bum either but he simply is not a good fit on the Flames. .
Hagman and Stajan are not bum if they make less than 1M...other than that they have negative value to the team.

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06-13-2011, 12:03 AM
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Originally Posted by BenThatcher View Post
Thanks for your response!



3) If they go back to Europe, that means we don't have to pay them right? So of course they'll report to our AHL team, these bums want to get paid. I don't see the owner being too happy about that much salary in the AHL.
Yeah, the Flames would have to pay them every penny of the $3 million they are owed for the final year of their contracts. They wouldn't count against the cap though......and FYI, the contracts WOULD count against our 50 contract limit.

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06-13-2011, 12:18 AM
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I can seriously see a team like Florida or Buffalo taking Hagman with the last year on his contract. And without sending salary back.

Kotalik? He's gone one way or another but it'll cost the team in some form.

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06-13-2011, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by MVW View Post
I wouldn't classify Hagman as a bum, Kotalik definitely. And Stajan is not a bum either but he simply is not a good fit on the Flames. Kotalik and Stajan are much bigger problems than Hagman who actually still a useful hockey player. The general consensus is that Kotalik is gone to Europe next season, I believe we will still have to pay him as we are "loaning" to another team but it should not count against the cap. I think you try anything and everything to try and trade Hags and Stajan. If that is not successful, so be it. Hagman's contract is up at the end of next season along with a bunch of others. Stajan really is the only long term contract that is a big problem for the Flames, but with the additional cap space we will be getting next season we can deal with it if needed. If a deal comes up where the Flames need cap space, one or both of Stajan and Hagman can be put on waivers and then sent down to the AHL if not claimed.
Hagaman is a decent hockey player and could have a bounce back year. If we are not offered a 3d, I say let him play and hope a) he and the team are doing well come trade deadline or b) he's worth at least something come trade deadline.

Kotalik can be buried in Europe or the minors. I don't like our tendency to do this sort of thing as the contract would still count towards the limit of 50. I think we were able to claim Carsson off waivers because Conroy retired, but that left us at 50 contracts. This type of management doesn't make it easy to make moves in mid-season. If we end up trading away some salary, keeping him (providing he goes to net consistently) in limited minutes wouldn't kill me. We could also use his big shot from the point considering Babs is all but gone. I know, the only hope of a scenario like this working is based on the fact that he'll be in a contract year (and it would also assume that he is looking for another NHL contract -it always amazes me how a player's stock can go up because of there recent play, regardless of what might have happened over the the previous 2 or 3 seasons...) I still think it is highly unlikely he'll be in Calgary next season, but I don't foresee a buyout (cap issues).

Regarding Stajan, I am positive yet again. He's not bad in his own end, so he only needs a decent season offensively (40 points?) to garner some interest in a trade at the deadline or during the next off season. The reason I say this is because his salary for 2012/2013 and 2013/2014 drops down to to 2.5 million per year, yet I believe he has a cap hit of 3.5 million. It is at least conceivable that a team like Florida (cash strapped and reaching for the floor) would be interested in a contract like this. Moreover, I seem to recall listening to Florida's GM in an interview and he said something to the effect that players like Stajan and Weiss were valuable because of their two-way ability and their "reasonable" cap hits. I agree with him regarding Weiss...

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06-13-2011, 06:22 AM
  #11
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The Flames owners will bury one contract in the minors, it will be Kotalik. They won't pay to bury two.

Hagman was on waivers last year, no one claimed him. I doubt anyone takes him without giving up undesirable salary in return. AT least not until the trade deadline.

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06-13-2011, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by slappipappi View Post
The Flames owners will bury one contract in the minors, it will be Kotalik. They won't pay to bury two.

Hagman was on waivers last year, no one claimed him. I doubt anyone takes him without giving up undesirable salary in return. AT least not until the trade deadline.
Hagman only has 1 year in his contract. Once the season starts and teams have an idea of their cap space he can be moved. Is rather keep him and see if he bounces back however.

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06-13-2011, 03:30 PM
  #13
Janko Unchained
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Originally Posted by Dallas Hockey Fan View Post
Kotalik, Stajan, Hagman are Flames for life...nobody stupid enough to pick them up...

That doesnt mean they have to play for the Flames...they just need to get paid by the Flames.

Sutter lost his marble when he obtained these gems in a moment of panic.
Mod-edit: deleted. Hagman and Kotalik both have one year left on their current contracts, and will likely not be here (Kotalik anyway). Kotalik will probably go to Europe since he doesn't want to play in the AHL and no NHL team really wants him. Hagman will probably get traded to a cap-floor team like someone else had said (Xelstyle I believe). Worst case scenario is Hagman plays out the season somewhere on the second or third line.

Stajan is the only long-term problem the Flames have, and I don't see it as a huge one. I think he can be moved once his contract has 2-3 years left on it. It's a tough pill to swallow for now, but I think it is possible he can be moved. So to say that any of them are "Flames for life" is stupid.


Last edited by Snoil11: 06-14-2011 at 12:04 PM. Reason: flaming
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06-13-2011, 04:47 PM
  #14
slappipappi
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Hagman only has 1 year in his contract. Once the season starts and teams have an idea of their cap space he can be moved. Is rather keep him and see if he bounces back however.

Most GM's have long understood something Sutter never learned; that cap space is golden.

Hagman at $3M is no bargain. He won't be easy to move, as we saw last year. Maybe at the deadline if he's had an OK season.

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06-13-2011, 04:53 PM
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There is difference in a players value that is under-performing with 2 years on the contract and the same player with one year on his contract. I honestly think we could see Hagman get moved on draft day. Even if we don't, I don't mind. He got his ass in gear once he got waived and it might be that extra motivation going into camp. Regardless, he's off the books at the end of the 2011/2012 season, in the worst case scenario.

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06-14-2011, 07:18 AM
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Mod-edit: deleted. Hagman and Kotalik both have one year left on their current contracts, and will likely not be here (Kotalik anyway). Kotalik will probably go to Europe since he doesn't want to play in the AHL and no NHL team really wants him. Hagman will probably get traded to a cap-floor team like someone else had said (Xelstyle I believe). Worst case scenario is Hagman plays out the season somewhere on the second or third line.

Stajan is the only long-term problem the Flames have, and I don't see it as a huge one. I think he can be moved once his contract has 2-3 years left on it. It's a tough pill to swallow for now, but I think it is possible he can be moved. So to say that any of them are "Flames for life" is stupid.

Life in the NHL means life of his contract...of course once you are a free agent, you can go anywhere you want...it doesnt take a genius to know that. Mod-edit: deleted.


Last edited by Snoil11: 06-14-2011 at 12:04 PM. Reason: qep
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06-14-2011, 02:58 PM
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Hagman wasn't picked up on waivers as most teams heading into the playoffs were near the salary cap - not many can afford to take on 3 million that late in the season without giving up something in return.

Hagman is definitely trade-able. For a 3rd now, 2nd at the deadline (unless he is under-whelming again).

Kotalik was doing great in the pre-season. Got hurt.. and he was slowed down. He isn't a big fast scoring machine. Kotalik is a 3rd line winger with great size and a PP specialist on the point. There are not too many battles in the corner he doesn't win - he just isn't quick. For all the Kotalik bashers - take a look at his stats. I don't think he is a 'bum'. There were actually a few articles on him - he is 'too hard' on himself. He is generally well-liked, and even when he got demoted Playfair loved his attitude. Yes, I don't think he will be on the Flames - or anywhere else for 3 million/season - but this is what this guy is - a PP specialist/3rd line winger. Many people assume his lack of speed is a lack of effort.

Both could be played in Calgary next season, and both can be shipped out for picks at the deadline. I just doubt that either of them will be given that chance - doubly so if we end up picking McNeil who has the size and strength for the NHL right now.

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06-14-2011, 08:21 PM
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I don't think he is a 'bum'. There were actually a few articles on him - he is 'too hard' on himself. He is generally well-liked, and even when he got demoted Playfair loved his attitude. Yes, I don't think he will be on the Flames - or anywhere else for 3 million/season - but this is what this guy is - a PP specialist/3rd line winger. Many people assume his lack of speed is a lack of effort.
While it's true that his lack of speed doesn't correlate to effort, it took a demotion to the AHL for him to get his game back on track and when he came back, it was only for a couple games that the motivation lasted for a handful of games before he completely disappeared again.

Part of being a professional athlete involves the mental side. It's scrutinized more often with goaltenders and the "Russian" stigma, but all players need to have the right mentality to be successful. Being "too hard on one's self" is no different than having a bad work ethic. You change your perspective or else you won't be in the league for very long.

Had the he been on any other team or if we didn't have Moss/Babchuk, I'm sure he would've had more opportunities. Problem is with these opportunities was that he had the same ones last season.

I had great hopes for him coming out of training camp thinking this was his time to really turn things around, but as circumstances developed, there was no way for him to bounce back. Hopefully he'll get an opportunity with a team in need of RWs but things just don't look good for his NHL career.
Definitely would be interested in seeing how he would do as a part of the Red Wings.

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06-14-2011, 11:27 PM
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While it's true that his lack of speed doesn't correlate to effort, it took a demotion to the AHL for him to get his game back on track and when he came back, it was only for a couple games that the motivation lasted for a handful of games before he completely disappeared again.

Part of being a professional athlete involves the mental side. It's scrutinized more often with goaltenders and the "Russian" stigma, but all players need to have the right mentality to be successful. Being "too hard on one's self" is no different than having a bad work ethic. You change your perspective or else you won't be in the league for very long.

Had the he been on any other team or if we didn't have Moss/Babchuk, I'm sure he would've had more opportunities. Problem is with these opportunities was that he had the same ones last season.

I had great hopes for him coming out of training camp thinking this was his time to really turn things around, but as circumstances developed, there was no way for him to bounce back. Hopefully he'll get an opportunity with a team in need of RWs but things just don't look good for his NHL career.
Definitely would be interested in seeing how he would do as a part of the Red Wings.
I don't disagree with anything you stated at all.. but would like to take this time to point out something I found a bit.. 'perplexing' last season.

I think most fans were aware of Kotalik's booming shot, and the fact that he mostly played the point on the PP in his career - which is how he managed to get roughly 5 20-goal seasons (or very close to it when you take his injuries into consideration). Calgary had an absolutely terrible PP for most of the first half - but Kotalik was never tried on it. I always wondered why that was.. perhaps Brent was just adamant that PP time be awarded to players he felt worked very hard, or so on.

However, after the Flames' skill competition, in which Kotalik registered a howitzer of a shot, I remember a quote from Brent saying: "I didn't realize Kotalik had a shot like that", and the very next game Kotalik was on the PP.

I think my point is that Kotalik is a bit of an 'enigma' in a certain way. He is a 'decent' 3rd liner who is a PP and shootout specialist (something that annoyed me last year was Brent not utilizing him and Joker enough on the shootout also).

Don't get me wrong - for 3 million a season, it is over-payment for him. However, for Kotalik to be 'useful' for a team, he needs to be utilized in that niche - 3rd (or even 4th line minutes - his physique is suited for either/or) and some PP/Shootouts. Is it worth 3 million/season? Well.. tough to say - how many shootouts 'could' he have won for us, and how much help could he have been on the PP - especially when the PP was just awful - and could that have just 'pushed' us into the playoffs? Tough argument to make, and I am not trying to make that argument..

I just don't really view him as a 'bum'. I actually think he works hard, but suffers from confidence issues.. and he is a VERY niche player. I think he is definitely an NHL player, just someone who in the cap world is tough to find a home at that salary. I do expect him to go to Europe, but I also do expect him to be back in the NHL (Unless he finds a KHL team to offer him more money) making considerably less than 3 million/season.

I guess I just get a bit 'annoyed' when people call him a bum, or 'washed up' or something, when if you look at his career stats, his shootout stats, etc., that he is just a very niche player who is actually pretty good to have on your bottom lines - just not at that salary.

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06-14-2011, 11:53 PM
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With Langkow being back full time next year and with having to resign Tangs, there is no chance in hell that Kotalik will be back next year. It just is not feasible.

Regarding his game, Kotalik's problem is his level of compete. I think it starts with his off ice effort, I don't think his conditioning is where it should be for him to be a regular in the NHL and to be able to keep up with all the young gunslingers in the leauge today. Kotalik (as Reinhart put it) has relied on his size and his booming shot to get by, and that is only a small portion of hockey. With having a salary cap, a team cannot afford to give a guy a roster spot based on being just a PP & shootout specialist, especially when that player is making 3 million a season. I don't think Kotalik has a bad attitude at all, I just think that players that are that streaky have a problem committing to the system 100% over 82 games. There is no questioning his talent, but he does not work hard enough on his speed/skating in the offseason. And then tries to get by soley all his hard and often wild one shot. Kotalik will argue that he hasn't been given the role to be successful in Calgary, I would argue he has done nothing to warrant getting such a role with what little he has shown us.

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06-15-2011, 12:04 AM
  #21
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Trade Hagman to LA for Kozan straight up, or package him to Washington with a sixth round pick for Fehr

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06-15-2011, 12:15 AM
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Trade Hagman to LA for Kozan straight up, or package him to Washington with a sixth round pick for Fehr
Wouldn't that be nice?
Too bad Washington actually likes Fehr.

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06-15-2011, 11:32 AM
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Trade Hagman to LA for Kozan straight up, or package him to Washington with a sixth round pick for Fehr
We can dream.

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06-15-2011, 11:41 AM
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Lol, despite the fact that Kozun likely can outperform Hagman

Kozun has proven to be successful at every level now despite his size. Its too bad Flames didn't like small skilled players

Another player lost from our own backyard that we could've gotten.

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06-15-2011, 11:43 AM
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Lol, despite the fact that Kozun likely can outperform Hagman

Kozun has proven to be successful at every level now despite his size. Its too bad Flames didn't like small skilled players

Another player lost from our own backyard that we could've gotten.
Its sad to see all these great Hitmen players go off to teams like Washington and LA. I've always enjoyed watching Kozun play.

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