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[CBJ/MTL] Wisniewski's rights for a Cond. 7th (5th if he signs in CBJ) (post #302)

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06-29-2011, 07:46 PM
  #701
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
So your solution is to sign Wisniewski to a huge contract and have a defense with 4 puck moving defensemen/PP point aces?

How does that get the Hbas closer to winning a cup?

Would a smart GM spend money on the team's weaknesses(adding a big winger to the top 6 and meanness to the bottom 6) rather than overloading a strength(when you already have Subban and Markov as elite PMD's and point men)?

We keep hering how we have to be better 5 on 5, well that starts with a couple of top 6 wingers with size that can forecheck and drive the net, we have one with Pacioretty coming back and we need to sign/trade for another. I want to see money spent on that rather than another PP specialist.

Nothing against Wisniewski, but with Markov and Subban healthy he's only worth about 2.5 mil as a 3rd pair PP specialist...he doesn't play a shutdown role and struggles on the PK.
Where are your top 6 power forwards? WHERE ARE THEY? SHOW THEM TO ME.

And there's nothing wrong with having puck movement from that backend. How many stay-at-home guys did Detroit have when they won the Cup?

And it's not like we can't trade a D later on for a forward. It's not illegal to trade players.

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06-29-2011, 07:48 PM
  #702
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I sense a lot of anger on the interweb tonight

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06-29-2011, 07:51 PM
  #703
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I'm going to hold off on judging this until I see what Wiz gets signed for. If he wants and gets the moon, then I will be far more forgiving. If he gets three years at 4.5 million however, I'm going to be very pissed.

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06-29-2011, 07:53 PM
  #704
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Or trade prospects for reliable (yet unspectacular) veterans who have to hold the fort while the bottom draft picks that we retain take a full 3 or 4 years to hopefully develop. There's a bit of that in there, too.
And the year before they develop fully, they are traded to another team for a bag of pucks.

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06-29-2011, 07:56 PM
  #705
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
So your solution is to sign Wisniewski to a huge contract and have a defense with 4 puck moving defensemen/PP point aces?

How does that get the Hbas closer to winning a cup?
Because no one wins leaning on Rod Langways and Chris Phillips' these days, they win relying on Lidstroms and Keiths, etc. Puck movement from the defense is of primary importance in today's league, and the more you can have without putting your team over the cap, the better.

And again, Markov, Wisniewski, and Subban are far from just PP aces. They are very productive and reliable ES players as well. All 3 are pretty much the definition of 2-way/"all-round" defenseman.

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06-29-2011, 07:56 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Not seeing it from Gauthier (Molson employee).

Look at Chiarelli of the Bruins. He was busy and effective last July. And he was busy and effective at the trade deadline. All that hard work and trading and signing paid off with a Cup.

Meanwhile, this year, we see trades being made for names that were thrown around here on this forum. But none by Gauthier. He is still sitting around (on his thumbs or on his ass) and we are left waiting for the magical trade of the century......as he offers contracts to Hamrlik and lets Wiz walk.

If I were the owner of one of the most valuable and profitable franchises in sports, I would not want someone like Gauthier working for me. Every team can spend to the Cap. Some GMs are able to fill that team with productive players and some superstars. We somehow always end up with the less than stellar players.

I had hoped that Molson was going to do something to make Montreal into the powerhouse team it once was. With Gauthier (and Martin.....and Gainey 'advising') in charge, we will once again be forced to wait.......and hope......and imagine.....and continually speculate.
Not sure how Gauthier can be more pro-active. What exactly does he have to play with. No draft picks, NHL ready young players are indispensable, Hamilton is bare, blue chip prospects few. I fully expected this after the 2008 season with the 11 UFA that we hung on to and received nothing in exchange. Properly managed org's might have some pieces that leave as UFA's but rarely valuable ones. That being said he was part of the decision making process so it's also on him. Injuries have also not helped in that last two years, especially to the defense.

Let's look at how the Habs have systemically depleted their assets and picks in the last two years alone. I'm not including other player movements that we even return such as the O'byrne for Bournival:
- McDonough, Valetenko, Higgins (in the Gomez trade going against the norm. When you take on a bad contract - you give smaller but bad contract. Gainey gave three good contracts for possible the worst NHL contract. This alone set the Habs organization back a couple of years.)
- 2011 2nd round pick for Domenic Moore
- D'Agostino traded (for Palushaj)
- 2010 2nd round pick ( to switch first round picks to select Tinordi)
- SKost (for Boyd and Ellis - useless)
- 2011 2nd round & 5th round (for Wiz)

I count 9 pieces a GM can then turn into valuable trades or moving up in draft.

Gauthier is fighting other GM's with a peashooter. I'm happy that it looks like he finally has understood and the Habs will have to sail the course for a couple of years without trading picks and prospects and hope their strong nucleus of young players and Price can carry the team until then.

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06-29-2011, 08:20 PM
  #707
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Buffalo already has Myers, and have since traded for Regier. Now, they have traded for the negotiating rights to Ehrhoff. Apparently they are of the opinion that not stopping after 2 top 4 dmen and filling the rest of it out with specialists and rookies is not a winning strategy.

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06-29-2011, 08:23 PM
  #708
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If the Habs had a top 5 offense, and top 2 defence, the best 5 on 5 in the game, the best goaltender on the planet, a good supply of young players, and people were questioning Gauthier that's one thing, but in Montreal's current state it's a different matter.

Boston is fundamentally sound. Montreal is on the bubble.
And, again, the 'best goaltender on the planet' is the guy who they all wanted to ship out of town for a draft pick last July. Things change.

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06-29-2011, 08:27 PM
  #709
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Because no one wins leaning on Rod Langways and Chris Phillips' these days, they win relying on Lidstroms and Keiths, etc. Puck movement from the defense is of primary importance in today's league, and the more you can have without putting your team over the cap, the better.

And again, Markov, Wisniewski, and Subban are far from just PP aces. They are very productive and reliable ES players as well. All 3 are pretty much the definition of 2-way/"all-round" defenseman.
It would've been pretty wicked if we could've kept Wiz and if Markov turned out to be healthy. We would've had the best trio of offensive defensemen in the league and it would've gone a long way in compensating for our mediocre forwards. It sucks that we lost this guy and I agree with you, he was a good 2 way player with grit.

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06-29-2011, 08:29 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Buffalo already has Myers, and have since traded for Regier. Now, they have traded for the negotiating rights to Ehrhoff. Apparently they are of the opinion that not stopping after 2 top 4 dmen and filling the rest of it out with specialists and rookies is not a winning strategy.
Regher is past his prime , has played a lot of good hockey and IMO isnt that good and anymore. Erhoff is horrible defensively but a great PP quarterback

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06-29-2011, 08:31 PM
  #711
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Where are your top 6 power forwards? WHERE ARE THEY? SHOW THEM TO ME.

And there's nothing wrong with having puck movement from that backend. How many stay-at-home guys did Detroit have when they won the Cup?

And it's not like we can't trade a D later on for a forward. It's not illegal to trade players.
The year Detroit won they had Struart playing in their top 4 who is a stay at home and Kronvall who is a 2 way guy. Lidstrom is a 2 way guy also.

Nothing wrong with having puck movers but you also need guys that can play shutdow roles and kill penalities. Hamrlik for example is much more versatile than Wisniewski. Wisniewski can't play a shutdown role and he is not very good on PK.

Look at the last 4 cup winners...Chara Boychuk Gill Stuart Orpik Scuderi Hjalmarsson Sopel O'donnell Beauchemin...you need a mix of PMD's and guys taht can play shutdown roles.

Top 6 wingers...Cole Upshall Malone or Langenbrunner.

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06-29-2011, 08:33 PM
  #712
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The year Detroit won they had Struart playing in their top 4 who is a stay at home and Kronvall who is a 2 way guy. Lidstrom is a 2 way guy also.

Nothing wrong with having puck movers but you also need guys that can play shutdow roles and kill penalities. Hamrlik for example is much more versatile than Wisniewski. Wisniewski can't play a shutdown role and he is not very good on PK.

Look at the last 4 cup winners...Chara Boychuk Gill Stuart Orpik Scuderi Hjalmarsson Sopel O'donnell Beauchemin...you need a mix of PMD's and guys taht can play shutdown roles.

Top 6 wingers...Cole Upshall Malone or Langenbrunner.
We don't need Wiz for the pk though. We already have Gill/Gorges for the pk, and Markov has done well on the pk before in the past as well. Not all 6 guys have to excel in all parts of the game. We already have 2 guys who can do nothing but kill penalties and block shots in Gorges and Gill, then we have a wildcard in Emelin. Wiz was not a luxury, but a necessity.

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06-29-2011, 08:37 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
I'm going to hold off on judging this until I see what Wiz gets signed for. If he wants and gets the moon, then I will be far more forgiving. If he gets three years at 4.5 million however, I'm going to be very pissed.
this is the moon. and you'll be pissed. he'll get about that.

how is he worth anything close to Bieksa, Hamhuis money to us?
if we were as desperate as the NYISL, CBS or BUF to have ONE PPQB, then, ok, you'd be right to be pissed. but we already have 2 EXCELLENT PPQB who are more rounded then him. + we have a mini possible ppqb who doesn't cost a lot (Weber).

you have to go by need. and with Markov's return, WIZ IS NOT WHAT WE NEED. at any price (unless it's under 4M, which won't happen)

As i see it, top 3 icetime, EVEN WITH WIZ, would be Subban, Markov, Gorges... then it'd be Wiz. how can you justify paying 4.5M for him when you have WAY MORE URGENT NEEDS.
like toughness and top six scoring.

I understand the love for Wiz, he was perfect WHEN MARKOV WAS ABSENT.
However, MARKOV IS BACK. So, Wiz is gone. as simple as that.

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06-29-2011, 08:38 PM
  #714
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
The year Detroit won they had Struart playing in their top 4 who is a stay at home and Kronvall who is a 2 way guy. Lidstrom is a 2 way guy also.

Nothing wrong with having puck movers but you also need guys that can play shutdow roles and kill penalities. Hamrlik for example is much more versatile than Wisniewski. Wisniewski can't play a shutdown role and he is not very good on PK.

Look at the last 4 cup winners...Chara Boychuk Gill Stuart Orpik Scuderi Hjalmarsson Sopel O'donnell Beauchemin...you need a mix of PMD's and guys taht can play shutdown roles.

Top 6 wingers...Cole Upshall Malone or Langenbrunner.
You're talking about Kronwall as if he's some defensive stalwart. He's not that much better than the Wiz.

And look : Subban, Markov, Wiz, Gill, Gorges, Spacek/Emelin, with Weber able to sub in. We have enough of both. Our game is a lot more about transition and speed than it is about intimidation and brushing people off the puck.

Nowadays, people pay a premium to get offensive Dmen like Erhoff, Campbell, Wideman, Boyle, etc. We let them walk when they're on our squad. It's so backwards.

Cole will be a hot commodity. You'll be paying as much as Wiz because of the number of offers (for roughly the same number of points). Malone is injury prone and has a fat contract for a few more years, plus will cost us a good deal of assets (see : Penner). Upshall and Langenbrunner?

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06-29-2011, 08:43 PM
  #715
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Maybe mgmt believes Emelin has a lock on a spot? Must be hard for them though seriously, every little action or inaction is dissected by Montreal. Plenty of other clubs can wheel and deal with minimal media/fan feedback.

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06-29-2011, 08:50 PM
  #716
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With people getting all hot and bothered about putting too much trust in Weber and Yemelin/not re-signing Wisniewski/not re-signing Hamrlik/Lack of so-called "Insurance Policy"... I wonder how much Andy Greene would cost? He seems like a good depth guy.

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06-29-2011, 09:06 PM
  #717
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this is the moon. and you'll be pissed. he'll get about that.
Not getting what you're saying here. Are you saying he's going to get huge coin? If so, then I won't be pissed about us letting him go. I'll be pissed we lost him, but I'll understand why management didn't blow up the vaults to keep him.
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Originally Posted by alexstream View Post
how is he worth anything close to Bieksa, Hamhuis money to us?
if we were as desperate as the NYISL, CBS or BUF to have ONE PPQB, then, ok, you'd be right to be pissed. but we already have 2 EXCELLENT PPQB who are more rounded then him. + we have a mini possible ppqb who doesn't cost a lot (Weber).

you have to go by need. and with Markov's return, WIZ IS NOT WHAT WE NEED. at any price (unless it's under 4M, which won't happen)
Dude, he's well worth 4.5 million for what he brings to the table. I don't care if we have Markov or not. Wiz is a good blueliner and having him just makes us that much stronger. It's a no brainer at that money.
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As i see it, top 3 icetime, EVEN WITH WIZ, would be Subban, Markov, Gorges... then it'd be Wiz. how can you justify paying 4.5M for him when you have WAY MORE URGENT NEEDS.
like toughness and top six scoring.

I understand the love for Wiz, he was perfect WHEN MARKOV WAS ABSENT.
However, MARKOV IS BACK. So, Wiz is gone. as simple as that.
It's that simple is it? Okay.

Tell me, were you one of the guys who told us that Markov was back last year too? In case you didn't notice, the guy has barely played in two years and is coming off three consecutive injuries. Nobody knows how good he's going to be. Many of us knew that he was a huge risk last year and it wasn't a surprise when he went down. Some have tried to use his injury as a built in excuse for us not being contenders... sorry but at some point you have to realize that he's a huge injury risk and we should look at him as a wildcard. No responsible GM would make the assumption that he's back and will be great. To do this is to set yourself up for failure. We need to be smart and assume that he'll be hurt again. If he comes back... great. If not, at least we're prepared.

Secondly, it makes ZERO sense to let an asset walk away for nothing unless he's going to go somewhere else and make so much money that it would make him untradeable anyway. It's completely stupid to let a guy walk away and not give him 4.5 million if for no other reason than that we can deal him if Markov actually does come back healthy and get some assets in return.

Third, even if Markov does come back... who knows how effective he'll be? Wiz is 27 years old and could be a part of our future plans. Letting 27 year old good defensemen go away for no return doesn't make any sense unless the guy won't deal with you or wants way too much money. Otherwise you sign him. I don't see how you could argue against this.

As for our other priorities... I don't see a top line FA forward coming up this year apart from maybe Brad Richards (who will probably also want way more money than he's actually worth.) So if we're not going to draft that superstar forward (and I don't see us doing it anytime soon because we don't draft nearly high enough) or get him via free agency, then the alternative is to trade for him. If nothing else, if everything panned out and we had a surplus on D, Wiz could've been used as trade bait to try to land the forward that we've needed forever.

Instead, we've let him go for next to nothing. If Markov goes down, we'll have issues on the D... again. So I'm not really sure where you're coming from on this unless you have some kind of crystal ball that can assure everyone that Markov is back and having a career year.

Like I said though, I don't know the reasoning yet behind why we let him walk. And I'll reserve my judgement until Wiz signs somewhere and I can see for how much.


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06-29-2011, 09:10 PM
  #718
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We gave up Grabovski to have the rights to negotiate with an over the hill Sundin.

If Columbus wanted Wiz so badly they should give a 4th or a 5th whatever happen.

A 7th round pick: what a joke.

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06-29-2011, 09:15 PM
  #719
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We gave up Grabovski to have the rights to negotiate with an over the hill Sundin.

If Columbus wanted Wiz so badly they should give a 4th or a 5th whatever happen.

A 7th round pick: what a joke.
They sent us Pateryn and a 2nd round pick (we then traded for Moore iirc) for Grabovski.

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06-29-2011, 09:16 PM
  #720
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We gave up Grabovski to have the rights to negotiate with an over the hill Sundin.

If Columbus wanted Wiz so badly they should give a 4th or a 5th whatever happen.

A 7th round pick: what a joke.
No we didn't. We gave up future considerations which amounted to nothing, if I remember correctly.

So we got more for Wisniewski than the Leafs got for a future HOFer.

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06-29-2011, 09:18 PM
  #721
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Dude, he's well worth 4.5 million for what he brings to the table. I don't care if we have Markov or not. Wiz is a good blueliner and having him just makes us that much stronger. It's a no brainer at that money.
4.5 for Wiz is a very decent price, not a great one, I think 4M is a great one. But 4.5M is interesting. I'm not quite sure that's all he'll get however and it also depends over how many years.

But in any case, some of the rants towards management and the whining is pretty darn ridiculous.
Management replaced Wiz with Markov. A lot of fans here would want a back up for Markov in case he gets injured yet again, for a significant period of time. I can understand this, and I was up for it as well. I didn't particularly want to re-sign Wiz, I was hoping for Ehrhoff or Kaberle, but management seemed confident enough that we'll have enough firepower with Markov/Subban/Weber/Emelin. It seems to me that they will now try to find a replacement for Hammer, not Wiz. Perhaps a guy like Hejda or Ericsson, and I have no beef with that.
I still would like Kaberle and with his ''struggles'' in Boston, he might not be able to go for that huge paycheck so I'd seriously be open to hear his demands.

But it's one thing to be against certain moves, like not re-signing Wiz, and it's another to say ''mgmt doesn't want to spend money'', ''Molson are cheap'', ''Gauthier has no vision or plan'', ''Gauthier thinks we are fine and won't make any moves'', ''blablabla'' (not saying you were saying those things). Some are seriously calling for murder just because Wiz wasn't re-signed and that's beyond ridiculous. It's flat out stupid.

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06-29-2011, 09:22 PM
  #722
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4.5 for Wiz is a very decent price, not a great one, I think 4M is a great one. But 4.5M is interesting. I'm not quite sure that's all he'll get however and it also depends over how many years.

But in any case, some of the rants towards management and the whining is pretty darn ridiculous.
Management replaced Wiz with Markov. A lot of fans here would want a back up for Markov in case he gets injured yet again, for a significant period of time. I can understand this, and I was up for it as well. I didn't particularly want to re-sign Wiz, I was hoping for Ehrhoff or Kaberle, but management seemed confident enough that we'll have enough firepower with Markov/Subban/Weber/Emelin. It seems to me that they will now try to find a replacement for Hammer, not Wiz. Perhaps a guy like Hejda or Ericsson, and I have no beef with that.
I still would like Kaberle and with his ''struggles'' in Boston, he might not be able to go for that huge paycheck so I'd seriously be open to hear his demands.

But it's one thing to be against certain moves, like not re-signing Wiz, and it's another to say ''mgmt doesn't want to spend money'', ''Molson are cheap'', ''Gauthier has no vision or plan'', ''Gauthier thinks we are fine and won't make any moves'', ''blablabla'' (not saying you were saying those things). Some are seriously calling for murder just because Wiz wasn't re-signed and that's beyond ridiculous. It's flat out stupid.
Who wants a "backup for Markov"? I want as many of the best possible 2-way defensemen that the cap allows. Period. I don't want to wait 2 shifts before each chance for Markov and Subban to get out there and make things happen, despite being so easily targetted in matchups by opposing coaches. Period. I want more of what I've seen, and less of what people tell me I could potentially to see. Period.

And where are these death threats toward PG you're talking about here? A lot of hyperbole just to denigrate opinions/values that differ from yours? Come on dude.

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06-29-2011, 09:23 PM
  #723
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4.5 for Wiz is a very decent price, not a great one, I think 4M is a great one. But 4.5M is interesting. I'm not quite sure that's all he'll get however and it also depends over how many years.
Absolutely.
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But in any case, some of the rants towards management and the whining is pretty darn ridiculous.
Management replaced Wiz with Markov. A lot of fans here would want a back up for Markov in case he gets injured yet again, for a significant period of time. I can understand this, and I was up for it as well. I didn't particularly want to re-sign Wiz, I was hoping for Ehrhoff or Kaberle, but management seemed confident enough that we'll have enough firepower with Markov/Subban/Weber/Emelin. It seems to me that they will now try to find a replacement for Hammer, not Wiz. Perhaps a guy like Hejda or Ericsson, and I have no beef with that.
I still would like Kaberle and with his ''struggles'' in Boston, he might not be able to go for that huge paycheck so I'd seriously be open to hear his demands.

But it's one thing to be against certain moves, like not re-signing Wiz, and it's another to say ''mgmt doesn't want to spend money'', ''Molson are cheap'', ''Gauthier has no vision or plan'', ''Gauthier thinks we are fine and won't make any moves'', ''blablabla'' (not saying you were saying those things). Some are seriously calling for murder just because Wiz wasn't re-signed and that's beyond ridiculous. It's flat out stupid.
Like I said, we don't really know why management told him to hit the road (or for that matter if Wiz told us to hit the road) so it's premature to rant against anything.

I will say that I'm upset that he's gone because I think he's a good young blueliner and he would've helped us for the future.


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06-29-2011, 09:39 PM
  #724
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We need a different aspect on D. Wiz is a nice player, I liked him while he was still here, but we have offensive guys back there, better ones than Wiz. We need more of a rock back there now. Or atleast someone that can play 2 ways. Wiz was nice yeah, but don't lose sleep over him.

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06-29-2011, 09:44 PM
  #725
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Originally Posted by TheBuriedHab View Post
We need a different aspect on D. Wiz is a nice player, I liked him while he was still here, but we have offensive guys back there, better ones than Wiz. We need more of a rock back there now. Or atleast someone that can play 2 ways. Wiz was nice yeah, but don't lose sleep over him.
Ya, I mean, it's not like Wiz could play 2-way hockey. Not like he could throw a good check. Not like he wouldn't stand up for himself and for his teammates.

Not like we had a guy that could do that.

Not like we gave a 2nd for him.

It's not like those guys go for 3M$ a year on the open market.

I don't get why people think it's all good. We had a solid puck mover on the backend. He was still young. We had cap space. Just mind-boggling. I hope there's more to this than just the org not wanting to pay the man.

Em Ancien is offline  
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