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[CBJ/MTL] Wisniewski's rights for a Cond. 7th (5th if he signs in CBJ) (post #302)

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06-22-2011, 09:00 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by JimmyDarmody View Post
Do you just not watch the games?
You're right. He fought ONCE in 50 some games with Montreal. While when he was with Anaheim or Chicago he was pretty more active.

With Detroit, he won't fight anymore.

With Boston, he would drop them at least 6-10 times a year.

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06-22-2011, 09:27 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by habshound247 View Post
It would not shock me to see his rights traded for a 2nd or 3rd round pick in this year's draft if he can't be signed by Friday. I'm not saying I agree with the decision, but PG has to manage assets.
I came to basically post this.

PG needs to **** or get off the pot in the next 4 days. If we don't sign him, we need to give the other team enough negotiating time for them to want to give up at least a 3rd.

I think Detroit is the ideal place. I say we offer a conditional 2nd if he is signed and we thrown in a 5th back if he is signed ... and if they don't reach reach a deal, they give us their 5th still.

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06-22-2011, 10:44 AM
  #153
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You're right. He fought ONCE in 50 some games with Montreal. While when he was with Anaheim or Chicago he was pretty more active.
Perhaps he fought more often as a member of other teams because while with them, his face wasn't broken. Unlike 3/4 of his time with us. Just a thought.

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06-22-2011, 01:47 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Dave View Post
Perhaps he fought more often as a member of other teams because while with them, his face wasn't broken. Unlike 3/4 of his time with us. Just a thought.
we must be his lucky team

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06-28-2011, 10:28 AM
  #155
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With only Jagr, Richards, Gagne, Cole and Leino available for 30 teams to bid on, we have $14m in cap space, even if we sign Hammer to a $2.5m contract, give Gorges a $1m raise, we can carry 9 dman and give Wiz $5.5m over 4-5 years and still have room to make a $4-5m offer to a Cole or whoever.

We are going to regret not signing him. Please PG tell me the reason you haven't traded his rights is because your working hard to resign him.

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06-28-2011, 10:36 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
With only Jagr, Richards, Gagne, Cole and Leino available for 30 teams to bid on, we have $14m in cap space, even if we sign Hammer to a $2.5m contract, give Gorges a $1m raise, we can carry 9 dman and give Wiz $5.5m over 4-5 years and still have room to make a $4-5m offer to a Cole or whoever.

We are going to regret not signing him. Please PG tell me the reason you haven't traded his rights is because your working hard to resign him.
We have too many guys capable of doing this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uvo3roOJ2U

and this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ug26gPiKj70

With an amazing shot...

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06-28-2011, 11:08 AM
  #157
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Wiz is a good player but he's a product of our system. Big shots from the point always do well in Montreal. I think that's in part why they don't want to keep him. They probably think Weber, Diaz, Subban or maybe one day Beaulieu will be able to do that job.

Remember with Markov in the line-up Weber could even become that guy.

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06-28-2011, 12:00 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
Wiz is a good player but he's a product of our system. Big shots from the point always do well in Montreal.
But this is the problem, we keep paying assets to obtain that player. We have a player that we know 100% works in the Montreal system. Why not keep him? He'll be able to produce 40-60 points next year.

Just think how much better our PP will be overall with having 2 decent waves. Having Wiz on the 2nd wave of the PP means he's facing the opposing teams weaker coverage.

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06-28-2011, 12:15 PM
  #159
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
But this is the problem, we keep paying assets to obtain that player. We have a player that we know 100% works in the Montreal system. Why not keep him? He'll be able to produce 40-60 points next year.

Just think how much better our PP will be overall with having 2 decent waves. Having Wiz on the 2nd wave of the PP means he's facing the opposing teams weaker coverage.
Exactly. I'd be fairly upset if I saw PG spend another 2nd rounder on a guy who performed well here, but was then let go for nothing (first Moore, now Wiz). I understand that financial constraints dictate these things sometimes, but we have the money/cap space, and we know he's a good fit. So like you said, why not keep him?

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06-28-2011, 12:16 PM
  #160
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
With only Jagr, Richards, Gagne, Cole and Leino available for 30 teams to bid on, we have $14m in cap space, even if we sign Hammer to a $2.5m contract, give Gorges a $1m raise, we can carry 9 dman and give Wiz $5.5m over 4-5 years and still have room to make a $4-5m offer to a Cole or whoever.

We are going to regret not signing him. Please PG tell me the reason you haven't traded his rights is because your working hard to resign him.
But we're going to regret even more watching Yemelin go back to the KHL because we signed too many d-men. Not to mention the fact that we are paying him next to nothing. This is a great opportunity for the Habs to bring in a low-cost high reward d-man on this team. We shouldn't waste this chance!

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06-28-2011, 12:21 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
But we're going to regret even more watching Yemelin go back to the KHL because we signed too many d-men. Not to mention the fact that we are paying him next to nothing. This is a great opportunity for the Habs to bring in a low-cost high reward d-man on this team. We shouldn't waste this chance!
Then bench Hamrlik and Spacek. They are primarily insurance policies anyway.

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06-28-2011, 12:23 PM
  #162
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Then bench Hamrlik and Spacek. They are primarily insurance policies anyway.
Exactly. I would have thought it was obvious that this is exactly what their role has become: veteran bottom pairing guys, who are insurance if the young guys can't quite hack it, and fill-ins for larger roles if/when injuries happen.

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06-28-2011, 12:24 PM
  #163
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
But this is the problem, we keep paying assets to obtain that player. We have a player that we know 100% works in the Montreal system. Why not keep him? He'll be able to produce 40-60 points next year.

Just think how much better our PP will be overall with having 2 decent waves. Having Wiz on the 2nd wave of the PP means he's facing the opposing teams weaker coverage.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing because I like Wiz, but I think what he'll command minimum 5mil 5 years. Laich got 4.5 from a home team, it just may not be worth it. Unfortunately also given Gomez contract being an overpayment, in order for signing Wiz to be a viable option imo the cap must go up quite a bit.

Reason being Price and Subban will ask for a lot, Pacioretty if he keeps up producing will ask for a fair bit too.

I'm not saying other players can't be let go, and I'm not saying it's impossible to fit it under our cap like other folks are saying. I just think that management has a lot of faith in Weber and signing Diaz was a backup plain. Beaulieu was the BPA but is now a fail safe.

With Wiz I'm sure they'd offer him 5.5 x 2 years or something, what I'm guessing the problem is would be the length of the contract. I don't think it will be worthwhile in 1-3 years to sign Wiz to a 6 year deal. Weber may be able to take his place albeit not as effectively but eventually maybe in 2-3 years he could. Plus at a cheaper salary.

Truth is if you give away too much developed talent in favor of UFA's it bites you in the ass. I'd be happy with developing Weber even further but I'd also be happy with keeping Wiz.

At the end of the day if the management doesn't feel it's a good use of cap space then I have faith in whatever reasoning they have. Obviously I'd love to see that stacked offense and of course wish we could have got something for his rights if we don't sign him, but at the end of the day we have Markov and Subban, we also have a good mentor in Gill. Weber should be just fine and it will be easier for him to adjust playing on the 2nd PP unit and from time to time on the 1st with Markov. With Wiz in the mix I don't see Weber getting as much PP time or time even on D. He may as well be traded.

I think he's an asset worth keeping though because even if he never becomes as good as Wiz, even if he becomes 3/4 the player he is, we save dollars and have a worthy player on our hands. If we sign Wiz it will need to be long term for top dollar and imo could be problematic for us. Just my 2 cents. Again though nothing against the player or your point of view, I can actually side with both points of view in this case. Both have solid arguments in favor/against. What it boils down to in the end is not being able to see the future. We'll need to wait and see.

One thing is for sure though. If we let Wiz walk for nothing and then Weber plays well and comes at such a low price tag, I really doubt people are going to remember the Wiz situation or choose to recount it all that often. We have something special in Weber imo, some people just haven't gotten a glimpse of it yet. People around here always complain about developing our players properly, well by signing Wiz we likely wouldn't be doing that. (Gorges is coming back and Hammer is a high possibility already)

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Originally Posted by Pierre Jr View Post
But we're going to regret even more watching Yemelin go back to the KHL because we signed too many d-men. Not to mention the fact that we are paying him next to nothing. This is a great opportunity for the Habs to bring in a low-cost high reward d-man on this team. We shouldn't waste this chance!
Agreed.

And to those of you saying bench Hammer/Spacek No offense but that's laughable.

No coach in the NHL is going to bench like 7.5 million dollars in D even to let a rookie develop. They're signing Hammer for a reason, he's underrated on HF by many. He'll do fine as a #4 and keep on doing what he never gets any credit for, being a solid stay at home D who can sometimes step up and get some points.

Spacek being benched sure. Even though he's worth a lot. No team is going to bench two 3.5ish million dollar D. Ballard isn't a good fit for Vancouver fair enough, do you see two Ballards on their team? No. Furthermore Hammer actually is a fit for our team. Spacek when he's on is good, he's just off more than on. I don't want Spacek but ultimately if Hammer/Gorges are coming back, we have Gill, Subban, Markov, Emelin signed, even with Spacek benched if you sign Wiz then Weber has no place on our team.

Either that or Emelin heads back to the KHL.

I would prefer Wiz over Hammer/Spacek too even if they are insurance policies. Unfortunately trading Spacek is easier said than done and replacing Hammers hard work and defensive duties isn't as easy as it sounds either. Hammer should be re-signed rightfully. I agree with anyone saying Spacek should be dealt for a bag of pucks. But I respectfully disagree with anyone saying we shouldn't keep Hammer. If anything Spacek should be moved even if it's for salary we can bury. Teams need balance and Wiz in Hammers place would be a disaster at even strength even if his defensive shortcomings are extremely overblown around here. It doesn't take away from the fact that Hammer is simple a lot better defensively. Our PP should be fine with the likes of Markov, Subban and Weber.

I know if Markov goes down we'll be in trouble but you can't spend 5 mil over 6 years just for an insurance policy, at some point you need to gamble. They chose to gamble on Markov and not Wiz. Unfortunate but true imo. Now if we don't use that money on a winger you'll see a neofury raging hard.


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06-28-2011, 01:20 PM
  #164
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Originally Posted by neofury View Post
I'm not necessarily disagreeing because I like Wiz, but I think what he'll command minimum 5mil 5 years. Laich got 4.5 from a home team, it just may not be worth it. Unfortunately also given Gomez contract being an overpayment, in order for signing Wiz to be a viable option imo the cap must go up quite a bit.

Reason being Price and Subban will ask for a lot, Pacioretty if he keeps up producing will ask for a fair bit too.

One thing is for sure though. If we let Wiz walk for nothing and then Weber plays well and comes at such a low price tag, I really doubt people are going to remember the Wiz situation or choose to recount it all that often. We have something special in Weber imo, some people just haven't gotten a glimpse of it yet. People around here always complain about developing our players properly, well by signing Wiz we likely wouldn't be doing that. (Gorges is coming back and Hammer is a high possibility already)

Now if we don't use that money on a winger you'll see a neofury raging hard.
There is a simple solution, use Weber on the 4th line / PP specialist role ala Mark Streit. I deleted the part about not developing rookies but Weber although old, is still a rookie, he only played 41 games last year. He needs to adjust to the NHL game and speed. Let him do so in a limited role over 82 games.

Except don't let him go next season, let him play d full time next year when Hammer and Spacek are gone. We lack a shut down line, he could be used as a forward in that way as well.

I have a feeling we won't spend to the cap this year. So I don't think having space next year for Price and Subban will be a huge problem. Especially if Hammer is resigned for 1 year, with both him and Spacek gone next year, its no problem.

Plus we can always trade Wiz and get a 1st rounder for him if he is signed at $5m. He's worth $5m in the current market.

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06-28-2011, 02:14 PM
  #165
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
But this is the problem, we keep paying assets to obtain that player. We have a player that we know 100% works in the Montreal system. Why not keep him? He'll be able to produce 40-60 points next year.

Just think how much better our PP will be overall with having 2 decent waves. Having Wiz on the 2nd wave of the PP means he's facing the opposing teams weaker coverage.
He won't put up nearly as many points if he is behind Subban and Markov in the pecking order.

The best ways to avoid paying assets to replace the loss of Markov is A-for him to remain healthy(he is overdue) B-to build depth within the system in case he does miss time(Hamrlik? Weber Diaz).

You don't invest 4-5 years and 5 or more mil/year into a guy just to make sure you have a good PP...we have had a graet PP for 5 years, 4 of those were before Wisniewski, so he is hardly indispensable.

The only thing I want is a decent pick/young player back for his rights like Bryzgalov.

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06-28-2011, 02:29 PM
  #166
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He won't put up nearly as many points if he is behind Subban and Markov in the pecking order.
The best ways to avoid paying assets to replace the loss of Markov is A-for him to remain healthy(he is overdue) B-to build depth within the system in case he does miss time(Hamrlik? Weber Diaz).

You don't invest 4-5 years and 5 or more mil/year into a guy just to make sure you have a good PP...we have had a graet PP for 5 years, 4 of those were before Wisniewski, so he is hardly indispensable.

The only thing I want is a decent pick/young player back for his rights like Bryzgalov.
He might not put up 51 pts again this year but what's wrong with having three productrive D? Detroit had Lidstrom, Rafalski and Kromwall with 62, 48 and 37 pts.

Other teams had 3 D with over 30 pts or close. Subban had 38 pts last year and that's it.

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06-28-2011, 02:30 PM
  #167
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Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
With only Jagr, Richards, Gagne, Cole and Leino available for 30 teams to bid on, we have $14m in cap space, even if we sign Hammer to a $2.5m contract, give Gorges a $1m raise, we can carry 9 dman and give Wiz $5.5m over 4-5 years and still have room to make a $4-5m offer to a Cole or whoever.

We are going to regret not signing him. Please PG tell me the reason you haven't traded his rights is because your working hard to resign him.
This.
Sign the Wiz and solve the problems as we go.
Getting Wiz is not ideal to this team but he will make it a whole lot better.

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06-28-2011, 02:46 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by OpenIceHit View Post
He might not put up 51 pts again this year but what's wrong with having three productrive D? Detroit had Lidstrom, Rafalski and Kromwall with 62, 48 and 37 pts.

Other teams had 3 D with over 30 pts or close. Subban had 38 pts last year and that's it.
Nothing wrong with having a "Krowall" but he makes 3 mil/year right now and Wisniewski would cost about 5 mil over 4-5 years with a home town discount(I expect him to get about 22 mil/4 years as UFA). I prefer to see if Weber and Yemelin can develop into bigger roles this year...along with a couple vets as insurance.

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06-28-2011, 02:58 PM
  #169
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Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Nothing wrong with having a "Krowall" but he makes 3 mil/year right now and Wisniewski would cost about 5 mil over 4-5 years with a home town discount(I expect him to get about 22 mil/4 years as UFA). I prefer to see if Weber and Yemelin can develop into bigger roles this year...along with a couple vets as insurance.
For one or two extra millions, I'd be willing to do it. Last year, Lidstrom was at 6.2M, Rafalski at 6M and Kronwall at 3M. Anyway...

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06-28-2011, 03:08 PM
  #170
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There is a simple solution, use Weber on the 4th line / PP specialist role ala Mark Streit. I deleted the part about not developing rookies but Weber although old, is still a rookie, he only played 41 games last year. He needs to adjust to the NHL game and speed. Let him do so in a limited role over 82 games.

Except don't let him go next season, let him play d full time next year when Hammer and Spacek are gone. We lack a shut down line, he could be used as a forward in that way as well.

I have a feeling we won't spend to the cap this year. So I don't think having space next year for Price and Subban will be a huge problem. Especially if Hammer is resigned for 1 year, with both him and Spacek gone next year, its no problem.

Plus we can always trade Wiz and get a 1st rounder for him if he is signed at $5m. He's worth $5m in the current market.
I'm not saying it isn't a viable option I just think it's better for the team and Weber's development to have him play D period.

The reason I say it's better for Weber to me is pretty obvious, practicing/playing a position as often as possible is better than doing forward, and I know Weber likes D a lot.

The reason I say it's better for the org is because Weber would be a very ineffective 4th liner. I'm not saying he couldn't be passable I'm just saying we already have far more competent people in that position. If I recall correctly when we had Streit it wasn't the case. We had plenty of room to shift him around the forward line-up.

If we even sign one UFA forward and lock up our RFA's that we QO'd I just don't see the benefit of playing Weber on the 4th line. White, Moen, Darche, etc... all available for that role. (Though I'm a huge Darche support and truly believe he'd be competent on the 3rd line with Eller/DD/Kostitsyn depending on if one of those players isn't a good fit)

Also regarding Wiz, sure his market value is high now and somebody would take him for a 1st. What about after having an injury, a really bad season? There are too many factors to count. Imo it could be deadly to our org tying up another 5-6 mil long term in a player not named Subban, Price, Pacioretty, etc. We do have players who come off the books, I'm just worried Wiz would become redundant or maybe even not repeat success. At the amount of money and terms he's probably looking for, it's less likely another team will want him if he does get injured, does play badly, does anything really other than what he's already done for us.

I just see it as an unnecessary risk being that we have: Markov, Subban, Weber*, Diaz*, Beaulieu*. Obviously Weber isn't proven but like I said if he pans out he Wiz could become redundant and I'd rather Weber for cheap even if it's rolling the dice presently, than Wiz for overpayment. That's just me though and keep in mind I love Wiz. If we weren't signing Hammer and we had dealt Spacek maybe I'd reconsider. There are just too many variables though now.

For one Spacek actually being present and signed. For two Emelin and Weber needing ice time, for three Markov, Subban, Gorges, maybe even Hammer on top?

Plus Nash and Beaulieu don't appear to be slouches either. I just see plenty of talent on D even Carle could be asked to step up if injuries take place.

Adding Wiz to me just seems like it could be a fiasco. Not saying it will/would be, but rather that it could be. Signing him long term for big bucks just worries me.


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06-28-2011, 04:00 PM
  #171
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I like Wiz but would rather see us get top 6 help - even if none really available right now - maybe get Gagne cheap if possible

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06-28-2011, 04:02 PM
  #172
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with Bieksa and Pitkanen re-signed, price for Wiz (and Ehroff) has gone up a little...

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06-28-2011, 05:49 PM
  #173
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First of all, 27 year olds don't "leave money on the table", even to re-sign with their club.
.

so OJ, I have to ask, do you think Pitkanen (age 27) signing back in Carolina for 4.5M/per- 3 years, is as much as he would have gotten on the open market?

b/c I don't think so. I think, especially after Bieksa (who also probably left some money on the table in taking 4.6M to re-sign in Vcr- even if i don't value him at more than that, i'm sure other teams would have), that it's abundantly clear that Pitkanen decided to sign a deal the Hurricanes could manage instead of testing free agency and confirming the obvious... that other teams with higher payrolls and money to spend would easily have paid him 5M+.

as I alluded to earlier, if Wiz was serious about wanting to stay in Montreal, there would be no need for him to test the market and drive his price up. He'd have taken the 4-5M$ deal PG was offering him (that's pure speculation, I doubt PG would have gone under 4M$, and if he went over 5M$ and Wiz still said no, it only reinforces the point).and begun settling himself permanantely down in 'la belle province'


Happens every year, and will continue to happen every year, b/c believe it or not, money isn't everything.

an athlete who "gets it" (from a purely sport/athletic career pov), will be far more concerned at 26-27-28... with playing in the right environment (wether that means the right city, the right organization, teammates/linemates, coaching staff... whatever he feels gives him the best shot at achieving his career goals, both personal/team), than he will be with getting every last penny out of his career.

and that's not to say that a player driven to maximize his earning is "immature", only that if this is the case, then his priority is clearly on profit as opposed to performance.

some athletes figure out sooner than others that their careers really are both finite and short, and once the ability to play at that level is gone, no amount of savings in the world can "buy it back". Those who do figure it out, take less money to give themselves every possibility to both enjoy and make the most out of their career on the ice.

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06-28-2011, 05:52 PM
  #174
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so OJ, I have to ask, do you think Pitkanen (age 27) signing back in Carolina for 4.5M/per- 3 years, is as much as he would have gotten on the open market?

b/c I don't think so. I think, especially after Bieksa (who also probably left some money on the table in taking 4.6M to re-sign in Vcr- even if i don't value him at more than that, i'm sure other teams would have), that it's abundantly clear that Pitkanen decided to sign a deal the Hurricanes could manage instead of testing free agency and confirming the obvious... that other teams with higher payrolls and money to spend would easily have paid him 5M+.

as I alluded to earlier, if Wiz was serious about wanting to stay in Montreal, there would be no need for him to test the market and drive his price up. He'd have taken the 4-5M$ deal PG was offering him (that's pure speculation, I doubt PG would have gone under 4M$, and if he went over 5M$ and Wiz still said no, it only reinforces the point).and begun settling himself permanantely down in 'la belle province'


Happens every year, and will continue to happen every year, b/c believe it or not, money isn't everything.

an athlete who "gets it" (from a purely sport/athletic career pov), will be far more concerned at 26-27-28... with playing in the right environment (wether that means the right city, the right organization, teammates/linemates, coaching staff... whatever he feels gives him the best shot at achieving his career goals, both personal/team), than he will be with getting every last penny out of his career.

and that's not to say that a player driven to maximize his earning is "immature", only that if this is the case, then his priority is clearly on profit as opposed to performance.

some athletes figure out sooner than others that their careers really are both finite and short, and once the ability to play at that level is gone, no amount of savings in the world can "buy it back". Those who do figure it out, take less money to give themselves every possibility to both enjoy and make the most out of their career on the ice.
I agree 100%...on the UFA market, Bieksa, Laich and Pitkanen could get 500k-1 mil more per year on their deals. You could say the same for Markov and Plekanec.

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06-28-2011, 05:52 PM
  #175
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
Ohhhh you mad
 
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Cmon Gauthier, do the right thing! Sign this guy. As long as he doesn't have a NTC...

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