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[CBJ/MTL] Wisniewski's rights for a Cond. 7th (5th if he signs in CBJ) (post #302)

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06-28-2011, 10:01 PM
  #201
prairie hab
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
the wiz is so weak defensively .reminds me of mab.i ll take hammer for a fraction.
Give your head a shake. Nobody was as bad as MAB.

The Habs will not be able to replace Wiz's 50-60 points on offense.

I am astonished he was not more of a priority.

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06-28-2011, 10:02 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
It's fine if you say that he's worse in his own zone than anywhere else. Just don't throw it out there as if he's worse in his own zone than any/everyone else.
I edited the post you quoted, so partly clarified there. Long story short what I mean to say is I find him very weak defensively for a big-money, big minute d-man, but not that he's not fit to play the minutes in the NHL. He absolutely is and that's why he's worth more to teams who are starved for his skills and poised to win. The group the Habs have is lacking in height, weight, and intimidation and pretty good on shooting and making the first pass. Wiz is too good at what they feel they've got to sign long term. I think that's their calculation, anyway.

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06-28-2011, 10:08 PM
  #203
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It's becoming more and more clear that we are not going to be able to adequately address the top 6 forwards through FA or trade.

That being so, why are we bothering with Hamrlik instead of going all out to re-sign the Wiz?

We are saving cap space? Why?

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06-28-2011, 10:08 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
the wiz is so weak defensively .reminds me of mab.i ll take hammer for a fraction.
Lets not be hasty now. I would definitly take Wiz for 2 mil more than Mab for 2 mil less. While his brain farts make my heart stop, they have rarely led to a goal. ON top of that, Wiz brings a hell of a lot more than MAB (not to mention I prefer Wiz's shot)

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06-28-2011, 10:12 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
It's becoming more and more clear that we are not going to be able to adequately address the top 6 forwards through FA or trade.

That being so, why are we bothering with Hamrlik instead of going all out to re-sign the Wiz?

We are saving cap space? Why?
This is what I've been saying all day. Does not make sense to me. Bringing back Wiz is the best move the team can make currently or on UFA day. Granted, this is all assuming Wiz wants to come back. But make him a 5 million offer for 4 or so. There must be something we don't know about the situation because it doesn't make sense to not bring Wiz back given our cap space unless there was some offensive, high scoring and big winger in UFA--which there isn't. So what gives? I don't get this.

But this also brings the elephant in the room...the offense. We certainly don't adequately address it via the draft, nor do we address it via free agency. Even when we have years when we bring in guys who can score like Cammy and Gionta, we still consistently finish in the bottom of the league in scoring. Now of course that has much to do with the system the Habs play, but it's also an offensive talent thing. We don't have scoring prospects and we don't get scoring via UFA-How is this problem ever going to be solved? Letting Wiz, a big time point producer on the back line, go knowing that our offense is largely dependent on PP success, could be a terrible decision.

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06-28-2011, 10:13 PM
  #206
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the wiz doesnt fit our system.

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06-28-2011, 10:15 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
Bottom line he's really bad in his own end, there's no denying it.
I also deny that he is really bad in his own end.

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06-28-2011, 10:15 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
Give your head a shake. Nobody was as bad as MAB.

The Habs will not be able to replace Wiz's 50-60 points on offense.

I am astonished he was not more of a priority.
Markov will easily replace Wisniewski's production plus Subban will be better this year than Wiz.

I'm confident this year Markov will play at least 70 games and put up 57-60 points and i see Subban putting up 45-50 points also so that leaves no place at all for Wiz on the first pp wave. He becomes useless so i prefer a dman better in his own zone than Wisniewski.



Just so you know guys we had better years without Wisniewki than with him even in the playoffs.

Don't overate what this guy can bring to the team a Healthy Markov brings a lot more.



I prefer we use the 6 millions to sign two depth players like Cole and Jokinen they would be more usefull to the habs than Wiz IMO.


Last edited by Dharvey33: 06-29-2011 at 12:59 AM.
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06-28-2011, 10:18 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Stefan View Post
I also deny that he is really bad in his own end.
I agree that he isn't a great defensive d-man but I think a Gorges-Wiz pairing would be very good.

I just don't see the reason why all these players are re-signing with their teams (Laich, Dupuis and Pitkanen) and we aren't even talking to Wisniewski? Seems odd.

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06-28-2011, 10:18 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
I edited the post you quoted, so partly clarified there. Long story short what I mean to say is I find him very weak defensively for a big-money, big minute d-man, but not that he's not fit to play the minutes in the NHL. He absolutely is and that's why he's worth more to teams who are starved for his skills and poised to win. The group the Habs have is lacking in height, weight, and intimidation and pretty good on shooting and making the first pass. Wiz is too good at what they feel they've got to sign long term. I think that's their calculation, anyway.
I think a lot of people have been too quick to judge him during his integration period with a new team, and furthermore when he seemed to be playing with one shoulder at the end of the playoffs. The one constant during the entire time was that he was asked to carry half of the weight when it came to moving the puck and transition for a new coach in a new system.

I'm not ready to chalk up the gaffs I saw to actual deficiencies in vision, decision-making, or execution on his part quite yet. Furthermore, a lot of people are somehow overlooking exactly how good he is at blocking shots, which I consider to be a pretty important part of defensive zone play. I think Hamrlik is the only one on the team who blocked as many/more shots per minute of icetime in a Habs jersey last year. That usually suggests that a player's positioning is fairly sound.

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06-28-2011, 10:19 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Dharvey33 View Post
Markov will easily replace Wisniewski's production plus Subban will be better this year than Wiz.

I'm confident this year Markov will play at least 70 games and put up 57-60 points and i Se Subban putting up 45-50 points also so that leaves not place at all for Wiz on the first pp wave. He becomes useless so i prefer a dman better in his own zone than Wisniewski.



Just so you know guys we had better years without Wisniewki than with him even in the playoffs.

Don't overate what this guy can bring to the team a Healthy Markov brings a lot more.



I prefer we use the 6 millions to sign two depth players like Cole and Jokinen they would be more usefull to the habs than Wiz IMO.
Problem is it's becoming clear we aren't going to sign anyone on July 1st, so why not use our money on Wiz?

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06-28-2011, 10:22 PM
  #212
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I find it to be completely short-sighted of people to discount Weber's upside and potential as an offensive d-man on this team. The bottom line is this: he improved as a defenseman this year and had some timely goals in the playoffs. For a guy that was in and out of the lineup all year long, it would be easy to not be focused when he was given his opportunities, but he was, and i think performed admirably. He's never had a true shot manning the point on any given PP, and i think he would flourish if he was given such a role next year. And if that happens, we'll have no real need for Wizniewski, because we'll have two solid triggermen with Subban and Weber, and Markov say Hammer or Plex as the set-up guys. This would be smart management imo.

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06-28-2011, 10:23 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
Really? I don't mean to run him down. I think he's a legit top unit offensive d man and a legit top 4 player on a good team because he contributes in all three zones. But he's worse in his own zone than anywhere else, especially in terms of turnovers that lead directly to A-1 quality scoring opportunities. I don't really mean to say he's terrible, but as a top 4 guy he's really flawed in his defensive game, especially compared to all his other attributes. Do you find that description of Wiz inaccurate? Do you find him good in his own zone? Average?
The only people better in their own end on the Habs than Wiz are Markov, Subban, Gill, Hamrlik and Gorges.

But that is like a shut down dream 4. Wiz isn't weak in his own end like MAB, everyone talked about Kaberle 2 years ago and how he was a good all around dman, but the reality is Wiz is pretty much as good in his own end as Kaberle is.

and he's twice the offensive dman he is. Wiz is one of those players that will make you regret not signing him, he's got way more umpph than Streit, Souray put together.

Look at NYI, they just offered a 4th, so they could throw ridiculous money at Ehroff, now watch them build from the d out, they got streit, they got a mac, if they get erhooff, they will then be able to get that ***** jt his wingers.

plus nyi have like 10 goalie prospects better than deiperttor.

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06-28-2011, 10:25 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by nittany View Post
It's becoming more and more clear that we are not going to be able to adequately address the top 6 forwards through FA or trade.

That being so, why are we bothering with Hamrlik instead of going all out to re-sign the Wiz?

We are saving cap space? Why?
No idea why either. I love Hamrlik and sucks to see him go but I'm glad I'm not the GM. Dont have to make the hard choices. Wiz would be good.... but damnit, we need a Top 6

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06-28-2011, 10:26 PM
  #215
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For anyone that thinks Wis is weak defensively, go back and read the 50 game threads, Wiz wasn't the one giving up the 1 on 1's or the weak goals, it was always a tired GIll or an over worked Hamrlik, Wiz always held his own, he hasn't been a liablitity.

Plus Wiz fights, nobody realizes that cuz he had his jaw broke for the 2/3rds of the time he was here.

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06-28-2011, 10:30 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
the wiz doesnt fit our system.
A slick puck moving d-man doesn't fit in our system? Come on now...

We're a puck possession team.

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06-28-2011, 10:32 PM
  #217
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Originally Posted by prairie hab View Post
Give your head a shake. Nobody was as bad as MAB.

The Habs will not be able to replace Wiz's 50-60 points on offense.

I am astonished he was not more of a priority.
Keep in mind he's the same poster who thinks Gomez is a franchise center so it goes without saying to take his posts lightly. Very lightly.

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06-28-2011, 10:34 PM
  #218
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I find it to be completely short-sighted of people to discount Weber's upside and potential as an offensive d-man on this team. The bottom line is this: he improved as a defenseman this year and had some timely goals in the playoffs. For a guy that was in and out of the lineup all year long, it would be easy to not be focused when he was given his opportunities, but he was, and i think performed admirably. He's never had a true shot manning the point on any given PP, and i think he would flourish if he was given such a role next year. And if that happens, we'll have no real need for Wizniewski, because we'll have two solid triggermen with Subban and Weber, and Markov say Hammer or Plex as the set-up guys. This would be smart management imo.
Even smarter management would be to keep all your best options until your potential options are clearly better, especially when you have more than enough cap room to keep them. If a contract like Campbell's can be moved at his age, I don't see how Wiz at even 5->6 million couldn't be moved in a year or two (i.e. before he even turns 30) if Weber simply ends up being a much better option. Of course, in a couple of years we'll be looking to replace Spacek, Hammer, and Gill, and will likely have a Markov on a bit of a decline, and who knows what a Wiz replacement will cost in the future. It's also within the realm of possibility that he could at least be worth something similar to Kaberle this year to a team looking for a PMD heading toward the playoffs.

I don't think anyone is going to jump on trading for his rights while the Brad Richards sweepstakes is still on, so sign him while you can, and maybe worst case scenario you get a decent pick (or picks) for him at next trade deadline instead.

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06-28-2011, 10:47 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by Russian Warrior View Post
A slick puck moving d-man doesn't fit in our system? Come on now...

We're a puck possession team.
I have a hard time seeing Wisniewski as a 'slick puck moving dman.' Rather, he's slick on the PP. Even-strength, I don't find him to be a great puck mover. In fact, I find his decision making defensively questionable and his wandering around in defensive zone coverage problematic. I don't think Wisniewski plays within the system all that well.

On the other hand, I've always liked him. Grit, some skating, some offensive ability, willingness to launch a big hit here or there. Not a bad player, certainly. However, I wouldn't pay him core money.

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06-28-2011, 10:48 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by haburger View Post
the wiz doesnt fit our system.
he's only fit on your PP

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06-28-2011, 11:07 PM
  #221
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he's only fit on your PP
Trojan maaaan?

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06-28-2011, 11:12 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I don't think anyone is going to jump on trading for his rights while the Brad Richards sweepstakes is still on, so sign him while you can, and maybe worst case scenario you get a decent pick (or picks) for him at next trade deadline instead.
I don't think the Gainey/Gauthier management would do that. They seem to value some type of principles of signing player they want on their team, and not make false promises like Holmgren did to Carter/Richards. While this can lead to some bad asset loss (which is another problem on its own), I feel there is some players who like to be able to count on management to do them right.

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06-28-2011, 11:21 PM
  #223
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I don't think the Gainey/Gauthier management would do that. They seem to value some type of principles of signing player they want on their team, and not make false promises like Holmgren did to Carter/Richards. While this can lead to some bad asset loss (which is another problem on its own), I feel there is some players who like to be able to count on management to do them right.
Yeah, I get what you're saying. It wouldn't nearly be on the same scale as Carter/Richards, though, because those were super long deals that were expected to make them cornerstones of the franchise well into the future. You're right that the essence is similar, but this is just about giving Wisniewski something that's "fair", and the whole trade at the deadline doesn't even come into the picture unless Weber plays SO well (compared to Wiz, I guess), that the decision becomes clear. I didn't really mean to stress next deadline, though. It could be a trade deadline (or draft day) in a year or two as well, if Weber continues to develop but doesn't quite take his spot next season.

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06-28-2011, 11:25 PM
  #224
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Yeah, I get what you're saying. It wouldn't nearly be on the same scale as Carter/Richards, though, because those were super long deals that were expected to make them cornerstones of the franchise well into the future. You're right that the essence is similar, but this is just about giving Wisniewski something that's "fair", and the whole trade at the deadline doesn't even come into the picture unless Weber plays SO well (compared to Wiz, I guess), that the decision becomes clear. I didn't really mean to stress next deadline, though. It could be a trade deadline (or draft day) in a year or two as well, if Weber continues to develop but doesn't quite take his spot next season.
Trading him at the deadline would certainly be much different, and less of a problem, but I'd have the feeling a NTC would be involved for any major UFA at this point, and I don't see why Wiz wouldn't ask for one.

Anyway, if PG is to sign him, it won't be with the intention of trading him, this is not something I have seen from PG and won't expect him to do it.

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06-28-2011, 11:41 PM
  #225
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I do have a problem with letting Wiz go. I did mention that we CANNOT from now on used the Markov is injured excuse anymore. We used it the first year he was injured, didn't expect that and got screwed. Then, we used it this year, again, not believing that he could be so unlucky....but now we know. We know it can happen again. And we signed him and frankly we had no choice. But the choice we had was to make sure that if he goes again....we have everything covered. And while Subban is covering....a Wiz not far behind would have been more than helpful. And with a healthy squad, that's amongst the best D's in the league.

Now, the thing is....by a lot of people, Wiz WANTED to see what was out there on July 1st. And there's nothing Gauthier can say NOW that will make him change his mind so not Gauthier's fault unless.....he could have approached the Wiz's camp much earlier during the season. Which he didn't do. And that's questionable. But now that there's nothing we can do about it, signing Hammer is THE thing to do.

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