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Annual "Official" Fire Alain Vigneault Thread

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Old
06-16-2011, 05:20 AM
  #101
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You dont fire a coach that has brought you further than you have ever been. A coach that was a game away from winning a cup (twice).
AV was a game away twice? Or are you talking gm6&7 this year?

I beg to differ. '94 was closer in my mind. I'm sure others agree.

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06-16-2011, 05:48 AM
  #102
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Not surprisingly, Tony Gallagher had an AV column ready to go:

http://www.theprovince.com/sports/ho...889/story.html
Awful article.

Cody Hodgson? Really? That's his answer?

Hodgson scored at less than a 0.5 points/game clip in the AHL in the 2nd half of the season and was playing terribly at that level. He was given an extended audition - that he hadn't earned - in the playoffs, and was crap. Looked slow and ineffective, and had issues defensively.

Comparing to a #2 overall pick who can skate like the wind is ridiculous. Hodgson isn't on the same planet as Seguin in terms of ability.

__________

Vigneault won't be fired, nor should he be.

This team was the best in the league at everything this year, then reached the Stanley Cup Finals. Unfortunately we had too many players get injured, and ran out of steam in the last round. That isn't Vigneault's fault.

When the biggest problem most people have with a head coach is that he doesn't use his time-outs right, that's a pretty good indicator that the coach is doing a damned good job.

I don't know what happened with Ballard. I wish he had played more earlier in the season. But every coach has favourites and it would be no different if Vigneault was replaced with someone else - every coach I've ever seen with this club (or any other club) has been ripped for having some favourites that the fans don't like and some guys they won't play that the fans love. Anyone pretending that it would be different with anyone else is in dreamland.

And through the playoffs, Vigneault's decision to play Rome over Ballard was 100% correct. Rome, at this point, is a better player.

We lost because :

a) over half the roster was out injured, playing with an injury serious enough to keep them out in the regular season, or suspended. By contrast, Boston was almost completely healthy aside from the Horton injury.

b) our first line was unable to crack the opposition's shut-down pair. Didn't help that our entire 2nd line was injured so it was easy to focus on the Sedins.

c) our superstar #1 goalie was crap in 4 of the last 5 games.

d) the opposition goalie was absolutely unreal.

e) our PP completely died in the Finals.

The only one that Vigneault has any control over is the PP, and it's hard to criticise too much on that front when we were #1 in the league in the regular season, and dominant through 3 playoff rounds.

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06-16-2011, 06:08 AM
  #103
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how do you let your team have a breakdown like this... 3 goals in the last 5 games with the type of scorers we have on the team... Julian changed his game and AV wasn't able to solve it.

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06-16-2011, 09:02 AM
  #104
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I have a couple issues with AV but he won't be fired. First, seeing Tanner Glass out there every 2 minutes last night to start the game was pitiful. When they got pinned in their own end for 90 seconds and completely pissed away what little momentum the Canucks had feebly cobbled together, I knew the game was over. The air rushed out of the building.

My other issue is that I've never seen an elite team just get destroyed like the Canucks whenever they suffer some key injuries. Same story every year. It's one thing to get outgunned and lose when your team is down a few important cogs, but the Canucks just fall apart. That means they're either an overrated group of players or they have a coach that doesn't make the right adjustments.

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06-16-2011, 10:04 AM
  #105
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This coach and goaltender can't handle a swing in momentum. Those are the cold, hard facts.

Can the Canucks win with Luongo and Vigneault? Sure they can, but it's always going to be more difficult than it should be.

There's absolutely no reason why this team shouldn't have won this series. Win one game in Boston, and we're talking about a Canuck championship.

There are hard questions that need answering.

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06-16-2011, 10:17 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by jigsaw99 View Post
how do you let your team have a breakdown like this... 3 goals in the last 5 games with the type of scorers we have on the team... Julian changed his game and AV wasn't able to solve it.
AV couldn't keep up with a single coach we faced this playoffs, and aside from Barry Trotz, it was the ****ing special olympics of coaching. If Gillis hadn't put together the strongest non Pittsburgh roster in the league, AV would have been watching the playoffs from home.

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06-16-2011, 10:52 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Proto View Post
I have a couple issues with AV but he won't be fired. First, seeing Tanner Glass out there every 2 minutes last night to start the game was pitiful. When they got pinned in their own end for 90 seconds and completely pissed away what little momentum the Canucks had feebly cobbled together, I knew the game was over. The air rushed out of the building.

My other issue is that I've never seen an elite team just get destroyed like the Canucks whenever they suffer some key injuries. Same story every year. It's one thing to get outgunned and lose when your team is down a few important cogs, but the Canucks just fall apart. That means they're either an overrated group of players or they have a coach that doesn't make the right adjustments.
i talked about this in another thread the other day. there is a disturbing lack of what i call "adaptability" on this roster. rome gets hurt, guys play with different partners, 8-1. raymond gets hurt, lines shuffled slightly, schneider is putting on his gloves.

part of me wonders whether this reliance on set plays (which, by the way, are awesome) is symptomatic vigneault not doing whatever he would need to do to prepare his guys to be able change the game plan after the other team has figured theirs out.

someone mentioned that AV doesn't shuffle the lines when necessary. it's because he is scared to death to. he has three, maybe four, players who can effectively play up and down the roster-- burrows, hansen, higgins, and possibly raymond. is that a player issue, or a coaching issue?

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06-16-2011, 11:17 AM
  #108
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Awful article.

Cody Hodgson? Really? That's his answer?

Hodgson scored at less than a 0.5 points/game clip in the AHL in the 2nd half of the season and was playing terribly at that level. He was given an extended audition - that he hadn't earned - in the playoffs, and was crap. Looked slow and ineffective, and had issues defensively.

Comparing to a #2 overall pick who can skate like the wind is ridiculous. Hodgson isn't on the same planet as Seguin in terms of ability.
I've seen you post a ton of crap about Hodgson and I doubt any of it is well-sourced. I'm assuming you don't follow the Moose because otherwise you wouldn't say he played terrible at that level and didn't deserve his audition. There's a reason Claude Noel thinks he was their best player on most nights that suffered from the quality of linemates he was given.

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06-16-2011, 11:51 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
The only one that Vigneault has any control over is the PP, and it's hard to criticise too much on that front when we were #1 in the league in the regular season, and dominant through 3 playoff rounds.
So the fact the 4th line had zero goals in 25 games doesn't fall at Vigneault's feet? This is a coach that went with Bolduc and Desbiens on opening night, didn't want Brendan Morrison around, never gave any skilled depth players a serious look throughout the season and always opted to go the Glass, Volpatti, Oreskovich route on his 4th line while other top teams are employing legitimate NHL talent through 4 lines. By my count Tanner Glass had zero goals, 2 assists over his final 80 games - completely unacceptable to play this guy over Jeff Tambellini when you're the lowest scoring team in the playoffs...

I don't think Vigneault is the main reason this team lost but it is troubling that this team starts strong in every series, finishes weak and gets rattled at every sign of adversity.

I like a lot of what Vigneault has done in Vancouver but there is a shelf life in his profession. How many more opportunities does he get? I'd have no problem going in a different direction at this point.

Would a more cerebral coach like Craig MacTavish be a better fit with this core? Are we trying to fit a square peg in a round hole trying to win with skill and speed and this coaching staff? Was it good the team abandoned their regular season style to play smash-mouth hockey in the playoffs? On the surface, yes it looked good, but did it contribute to the offense drying up?

Ultimately injuries derailed this season IMO but looking at every aspect of the team to improve must be done. And the coaching staff is a big part of the club...

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06-16-2011, 11:53 AM
  #110
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I'm not sure the offense drying up can be pinned on AV. There's not much a coach can do when his top guys aren't producing. He tried playing them big minutes in games and he tried playing them less and playing a hard line matching game. Neither seemed to get them going.

He's a coach with some flaws but unless someone has this great replacement in mind, you'd just be firing him out of anger.

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06-16-2011, 11:54 AM
  #111
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I strongly disagree that we need to fire Vigneault.

I think it's a kneejerk reaction to suggest. Ignoring the "who do you replace him with?" arguments, he's just coming off guiding his team to Game 7 of a Stanley Cup Final. Unless you're Ottawa, you don't turf the brain trust that put you there (look how well it turned out for them when they fired Muckler after losing in the Final).

Vigneault has had teriffic success with this team to this point. Yes, he has made some head scratching decisions. Yes, he plays favorites. Yes, he has a doghouse that some popular players go into. Yes, he can be odd with his timeouts and ice-times. But we made it to the Stanley Cup Final and won 3 games once we got there. He's not a complete fool, and his decisions ended up paying off more often than not.

He'll be here next year. And he deserves to be, IMO.

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06-16-2011, 12:05 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Mr. Canucklehead View Post
I strongly disagree that we need to fire Vigneault.

I think it's a kneejerk reaction to suggest. Ignoring the "who do you replace him with?" arguments, he's just coming off guiding his team to Game 7 of a Stanley Cup Final. Unless you're Ottawa, you don't turf the brain trust that put you there (look how well it turned out for them when they fired Muckler after losing in the Final).
Pittsburgh?

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Old
06-16-2011, 12:08 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by VanEric View Post
I'm not sure the offense drying up can be pinned on AV. There's not much a coach can do when his top guys aren't producing. He tried playing them big minutes in games and he tried playing them less and playing a hard line matching game. Neither seemed to get them going.

He's a coach with some flaws but unless someone has this great replacement in mind, you'd just be firing him out of anger.
Certainly not entirely. But he did contribute to it.

It was his decision to saddle the Sedins with our bottom pairing and his decision to opt for toughness over talent on his 4th line. He needs to take responsibility for his 4th line scoring zero goals in 25 games and accept a fundamental change in the makeup of that line for next season. We can't ice the worst 4th line in hockey every single year...

Vigneault needs to learn from his mistakes and accept the game is changing. The other top teams have already done this and it's time to catch back up to them in this regard. No more Tanner Glass, no more Volpatti and no more guys by the name of Guillaume. There's simply no margin for error when going head to head with other elite teams.

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06-16-2011, 12:19 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Drop the Sopel View Post
Certainly not entirely. But he did contribute to it.

It was his decision to saddle the Sedins with our bottom pairing and his decision to opt for toughness over talent on his 4th line. He needs to take responsibility for his 4th line scoring zero goals in 25 games and accept a fundamental change in the makeup of that line for next season. We can't ice the worst 4th line in hockey every single year...

Vigneault needs to learn from his mistakes and accept the game is changing. The other top teams have already done this and it's time to catch back up to them in this regard. No more Tanner Glass, no more Volpatti and no more guys by the name of Guillaume. There's simply no margin for error when going head to head with other elite teams.
That's on Gillis too. He's the one shaping the team and the lineup so really, AV can only play who he's given. We don't really know if Gillis differs from AV's philosophy of having a purely grinding fourth line or not.

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06-16-2011, 12:25 PM
  #115
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Pittsburgh?
If the Canucks are absolutely tanking early next season, yes, I could see Vigneault getting turfed. But that scenario would need to occur first.

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06-16-2011, 12:27 PM
  #116
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the blind AV love is almost as disgusting as the riots.

you guys obviously arent aware that no coach has EVER won a cup with the tenure AV has. so you think he'll be the 1st coach in NHL history to win a cup after this many years with the same team. you honestly think he's special. no, you are the 'special' ones. he needs to be fired.

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06-16-2011, 12:29 PM
  #117
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That's on Gillis too. He's the one shaping the team and the lineup so really, AV can only play who he's given. We don't really know if Gillis differs from AV's philosophy of having a purely grinding fourth line or not.
Looking at Gillis' history here and Vigneault's who do you think is more likely to lean towards toughness and who's more likely to covet speed and skill? You're right, we can't say with 100% certainty without being a part of their discussions but you can make an educated guess.

Mike Gillis sounded extremely impressed with Morrison's pre-season play and surprisingly he wasn't given much of an opportunity in the final 2 games, and sat in the final one.

IMO Morrison was too similar to Wellwood for Vigneault's liking and he wanted to go with more size and strength in that spot. It looked like a huge gaffe at the time and the longer the season went along the worse it got.

Would you be happy with a Bolduc, Oreskovich, Glass 4th line coming out of training camp next year? IMO if that's what Vigneault is looking for he's not the man for this job...

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06-16-2011, 12:36 PM
  #118
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Vigneault deserves a medal for getting this spineless bunch as far as he did. Injuries, mentally fragile goaltending and his team getting embarrassed physically on the ice. Didn't have the horses in the end. You're crazy if you want to fire Vigneault.

No coach is going to do excatly what we expect or want them to do every time. They are actually in the locker room and interacting with players for one. They also have their own agendas and philosophies. Pointing out things you think he should have done is useless. Results are all that matters and a President's Trophy and getting what was left of our team to the finals should be commended IMO.

Hodgson would have made about as much impact as Tambellini.

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06-16-2011, 12:41 PM
  #119
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The 4th line gaffe of AV/MG choosing Glass/Oreskovich/random useless AHL plug over cheap, proven scorers like Wellwood and Morrison was incredibly idiotic and something I couldn't get over all year from the beginning. What did these plugs contribute? Vancouver's offense is way too top-loaded. Boston rolls four lines that consistently poses a threat with no clear "top liners" taking up all the minutes, while you can shut down Vancouver by figuring out the Sedins which becomes increasingly predictable come playoffs time.

AV took the team to the finals and will obviously stay because of it, but the guy's incredibly stubborn and unadaptable.

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06-16-2011, 12:42 PM
  #120
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Do I think AV should be let go? Yes

Will he be let go? Not a chance

MG will not fire the coach who just lost in Game 7 of the SCF when his team was decimated with injuries.

Unfortunately AV is just not a very good coach. He's adequate at best. His only philosophy is to throw the players on the ice and play without making any adjustments either in-game or between games.

The fact he played the 4th line so much is a perfect indication he has no idea what he's doing. It's Game 7 of the SCF for **** sakes and they hadn't had a point all playofss and didn't even look remotely like scoring a goal. They were more likely to be scored on.

I'm not saying that even having a HOF coach would have affected the outcome last night. I would prefer a different coach but it isn't happening.

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06-16-2011, 12:47 PM
  #121
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The absolute earliest that AV will ever be fired is next season if the Canucks stumble out of the gate. It's clear that we're a top tier team so anything outside of placing 1-2 in the West for the next few seasons is unacceptable. And I say 1-2 because as long as the NW division is such a joke, there is no reason we can't pile up points. So, I am guessing that if we ever fail to meet that standard AV will be let go.

But anyone thinking he'll be fired before that is just having pipe dreams. No GM with any integrity would fire a coach that set team records, and took his team within a victory of the cup without some sort of justification.

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06-16-2011, 01:00 PM
  #122
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Vigneault deserves a medal for getting this spineless bunch as far as he did. Injuries, mentally fragile goaltending and his team getting embarrassed physically on the ice. Didn't have the horses in the end. You're crazy if you want to fire Vigneault.
The most physical team in the playoffs by a country mile were 'embarrassed physically'.

I would sooner question why a team that wasn't inherently physical during the regular season changed it's style completely and abandoned what made them successful and if it contributed to the offense completely disappearing at even strength. Was this a good fundamental change for the team? Did the coach love every minute of it without wondering if it was the right course of action?

Did Edler hurt himself going out of his way to throw hits? Because we know our most crucial dman did 5:00 into the final and it was probably the difference in this series. And if that wasn't enough how about Aaron Rome turning the series on it's ear and taking himself out of the final 4 games?

Nobody will ever tell you you can be too physical but these questions should be asked.

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06-16-2011, 01:02 PM
  #123
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I think what bugs me is that he gives his players too much leeway to "make the changes". That works pretty well over the course of the regular season, but in the playoffs there isn't room to take an extra game or two to right the ship. The coach has to be right in there micro-managing every last detail. I can't say he isn't doing that, but the team did look similar to the regular season. They also mentioned after Chicago that AV leaves that stuff to the leaders in the room.

There's a careful balance that has to be struck there. Being too hands off meant that the team was wildly reliant on "the process". This served them well until Boston, when they were infuriatingly incapable of adapting to Boston's style of play.

The problem is, who do you get? If Mike Babcock or someone of that ilk was out there, yeah, take a run at him. But right now there's just not much there.

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06-16-2011, 01:10 PM
  #124
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The most physical team in the playoffs by a country mile were 'embarrassed physically'.

I would sooner question why a team that wasn't inherently physical during the regular season changed it's style completely and abandoned what made them successful and if it contributed to the offense completely disappearing at even strength. Was this a good fundamental change for the team? Did the coach love every minute of it without wondering if it was the right course of action?
Threw the most hits maybe. But I was speaking to the finals, where the Canucks were indeed, embarrassed physically. Looks past hit totals. They got pushed around.

Why change your style? Because the playoffs demand you do. Every year. No suprises is as physical of a test as there is. The Finals are always called loosely. Bruins took advantage, Canucks faultered. You can point to any stat you want, it's pretty clear the Bruins took the Canucks behind the shed physically, Canucks couldn't match them in the end. Too worn down.

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06-16-2011, 01:31 PM
  #125
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Threw the most hits maybe. But I was speaking to the finals, where the Canucks were indeed, embarrassed physically. Looks past hit totals. They got pushed around.

Why change your style? Because the playoffs demand you do. Every year. No suprises is as physical of a test as there is. The Finals are always called loosely. Bruins took advantage, Canucks faultered. You can point to any stat you want, it's pretty clear the Bruins took the Canucks behind the shed physically, Canucks couldn't match them in the end. Too worn down.
Didn't see this whatsoever. The Canucks were the more physical team and threw the much bigger, more punishing checks. The only embarrassment was watching your best player get repeatedly punched in the face without retribution. The reason why Tanner Glass should never play another game in a Canuck uniform.

So you don't think taking our focus off the puck and putting it on the body had any adverse effects on the offense? It's tough to say but I don't agree with that.

Not to mention the defense stepping up to throw huge hits decimated our defense and was a big reason for the team's undoing.

There hasn't been a year in our history where people don't point to a lack of toughness as the reason the team failed and this one will be no different but for obvious reasons, it's absurd. The Canucks were easily the toughest team in these playoffs when it comes to toughness that actually matters.

You want to point fingers, how about the 14th best offense out of 16 teams? Or a lack of adversity when things went awry?

This team and most importantly it's goalie are a frontrunner. They just can't play from behind and lack resolve when facing adversity. The question is, how do you fix that? I wish I knew the answer. Moving Luongo is probaly your best bet.

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