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Who does Timmins pick at 17?

View Poll Results: Who do Habs draft at 17????
JT Miller 37 10.36%
J Oleksiak 50 14.01%
Mark Mcneill 46 12.89%
Rocco Grimaldi 28 7.84%
J Brodin 2 0.56%
Matt Puempel 24 6.72%
Ty Rattie 3 0.84%
Zach Phillips 31 8.68%
Oscar Klefbom 7 1.96%
Mark Schiefele 57 15.97%
Joe Morrow 8 2.24%
Nathan Beaulieu 26 7.28%
Boone Jenner 11 3.08%
Niklas Jensen 19 5.32%
A Khokhlachev 8 2.24%
Voters: 357. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
06-21-2011, 09:37 AM
  #326
Roulin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by QuebecPride View Post
- Are you really comparing Leblanc, the 18th pick overall, to the 3rd overall? Leblanc was also injured the whole tournament, kinda unfair if you ask me. Leblanc isn't as developed as Schenn is either. I don't expect him to score 70 pts in the big league. I expect him to have 50.

I compared Bournival, a 3rd round pick, to a future 1st/2nd round pick in Jurco that was playing on a stacked team. I think it was a fair comparison.

Kristo was more than a PK guy on the U-20 team.
I think you are still missing my point. If you think Leblanc's ceiling is 50 points and Bournival's comparables are borderline 1st round draft eligibles... do you not agree that the organization needs skill at least as much as size up front? That Basu's argument is flawed?

BTW, to nitpick, Kristo played on two WJC teams, as an 18 year old and as a 19 year old. I believe you are remembering the more recent one. IMO the role he played as an 18 year old is the one he is suited for in the NHL.

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06-21-2011, 11:27 AM
  #327
Harry Kakalovich
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Well if the argument is that mediocre scouting and drafting is awesome, I guess there's no arguing.

There were better options at the draft is all I'm saying. And I'm not talking stuff we're gonna find out in 10 years. Giving away a second just makes it worse.
As I've already pointed out above, the Habs did not give up a 2nd to trade up. They swapped a 2nd for a 4th. This is a big difference and your failure to grasp it makes me wonder how you could possibly even begin to evaluate the relative worth of draft picks. Good luck in your sim league. No question Tinordi is not a good option in that sort of draft.

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06-21-2011, 12:06 PM
  #328
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
I think you are still missing my point. If you think Leblanc's ceiling is 50 points and Bournival's comparables are borderline 1st round draft eligibles... do you not agree that the organization needs skill at least as much as size up front? That Basu's argument is flawed?

BTW, to nitpick, Kristo played on two WJC teams, as an 18 year old and as a 19 year old. I believe you are remembering the more recent one. IMO the role he played as an 18 year old is the one he is suited for in the NHL.
They need both skill and size.

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06-21-2011, 12:52 PM
  #329
Em Ancien
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Originally Posted by Harry Kakalovitch View Post
As I've already pointed out above, the Habs did not give up a 2nd to trade up. They swapped a 2nd for a 4th. This is a big difference and your failure to grasp it makes me wonder how you could possibly even begin to evaluate the relative worth of draft picks. Good luck in your sim league. No question Tinordi is not a good option in that sort of draft.
Did you see the kind of players available in the second?

I know it's hard to grasp, but the quality difference in players in the second round (especially that year) is light years away from the difference between the 22nd and 27th pick.

But that's not the point. I wouldn't have picked Tinordi in the first round. We swapped our 2nd for a 4th (happy now?) to do something that is to me mind-boggling.

Tinordi can be a good player and it will still end up a SMH pick.

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Old
06-21-2011, 01:00 PM
  #330
Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
Only 2007?

2005:
Carey Price:franchise goalie
Guillaume Latendresse: top 6 powerforward
Sergei Kostitsyn: top 6 forward
Matt D'agostini: Top 9 forward.

Yah what a terrible draft year. Just because they are no longer with the team, doesn't mean the drafting sucks.

Also the 2004 first round pcik may have been crap but it also produced Yemelin(who we'll find out what he's made of) Mark Streit who is a premier PP QB and Mikhail Grabovski who is a pretty decent 2nd line center.

Scouting hasnt been elite, but its definitely above average.

EDIT: forgot the most important part of my post...I don't think drafting is a problem, rather I think development was a huge issue for too long a time.

I do agree that Timmins & staff are far from the worst at scouting amature talent - but, without getting into a lengthy list of player names, they are not consistantly the best either!

IMHO, the bottom line....if you want to compete with the best teams in the league (i.e. be a true Cup contender) you have to draft as good as or better than the best teams in the league.

Quite simply.....Timmins and the HABS have not drafted as consistantly well as the better teams in the league!

Arguably, Guillaume Latendresse, Sergei Kostitsyn, would not be top-6 forwards on a true Cup contender (maybe top-6 on Habs, Wild and Preds etc.)

I do agree trhat player development has been a huge problem.




And what if this is.....as good as it gets (for the Habs)?

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06-21-2011, 01:03 PM
  #331
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Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
I do agree that Timmins & staff are far from the worst at scouting amature talent - but, without getting into a lengthy list of player names, they are not consistantly the best either!

IMHO, the bottom line....if you want to compete with the best teams in the league (i.e. be a true Cup contender) you have to draft as good as or better than the best teams in the league.

Quite simply.....Timmins and the HABS have not drafted as consistantly well as the better teams in the league!

Arguably, Guillaume Latendresse, Sergei Kostitsyn, would not be top-6 forwards on a true Cup contender (maybe top-6 on Habs, Wild and Preds etc.)

I do agree trhat player development has been a huge problem.




And what if this is.....as good as it gets (for the Habs)?
I think it's not necessarily development, more to do with not all young players can deal with the fishbowl of playing in Montreal. For every Price and Subban that seems to thrive on the constant media and fan attention, there are SK's and Ribeiros that can't handle it and need to go to a place where they are unknowns and can blend in. Higgins also ran into issues that may or may not be related to the environment here.

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06-21-2011, 01:07 PM
  #332
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If I were Gauthier/Timmins, I would trade down to 25th oto 30th and pick up a 2nd round draft pick as well.

Maybe a trading partner like Ottawa or Toronto is willing to talk to us about the 17th overall draft pick.

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Old
06-21-2011, 01:12 PM
  #333
Roulin
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
If I were Gauthier/Timmins, I would trade down to 25th oto 30th and pick up a 2nd round draft pick as well.

Maybe a trading partner like Ottawa or Toronto is willing to talk to us about the 17th overall draft pick.
17 to Toronto for 25 and 39? That's a long way to trade down, but I'd consider it if certain players (Rocco!) are gone. I'd rather have both Jenner and Danault than just McNeill, for example.

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06-21-2011, 01:13 PM
  #334
Andy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
I do agree that Timmins & staff are far from the worst at scouting amature talent - but, without getting into a lengthy list of player names, they are not consistantly the best either!

IMHO, the bottom line....if you want to compete with the best teams in the league (i.e. be a true Cup contender) you have to draft as good as or better than the best teams in the league.

Quite simply.....Timmins and the HABS have not drafted as consistantly well as the better teams in the league!

Arguably, Guillaume Latendresse, Sergei Kostitsyn, would not be top-6 forwards on a true Cup contender (maybe top-6 on Habs, Wild and Preds etc.)

I do agree trhat player development has been a huge problem.




And what if this is.....as good as it gets (for the Habs)?
I'm not gonna respond to it all, but you're complaining that we missed out on the Marchand's and the Berglunds9this is what you actually said), but these are just top 6 forwards and as I pointed out, we've drafted many of them.

Just a classic case of the grass being greener elsewhere.

Player retention is a bigger issue. They give up on players too easily.

The better drafting teams are usually those who draft high, they are exceptions like in the case of Giroux, but the Canadiens have also been part of that exception with guys like Subban and Streit or even Halak.

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Old
06-21-2011, 01:31 PM
  #335
Melvin Udall
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Originally Posted by Koseegin View Post
I'm not gonna respond to it all, but you're complaining that we missed out on the Marchand's and the Berglunds9this is what you actually said), but these are just top 6 forwards and as I pointed out, we've drafted many of them.

Just a classic case of the grass being greener elsewhere.

Player retention is a bigger issue. They give up on players too easily.

The better drafting teams are usually those who draft high, they are exceptions like in the case of Giroux, but the Canadiens have also been part of that exception with guys like Subban and Streit or even Halak.

If Marchand and Berglund were the HABS only 'misses' I would be happy.....such is not nearly the case. That only covers the the '06 draft.....LOL.


Otherwise, Couldn't agree more..............Habs either give up on players too easily, in terms of hockey development etc. and (perhaps more so) in terms of general maturity.

I think the HABS cause at least some of their own problems in these areas.

IMHO, Latendress should have spent 1 or 2 years in the minors - matured as a player and a pro and he might have been able to stick in Montreal (seemed to have terriffic potential).

But I agree with your premise.

IMHO, Habs (especially) as an organization might benefit from appointing a coach to help the real young guys develop as players and mature as professionals.

Just my opinion.



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06-21-2011, 04:37 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Did you see the kind of players available in the second?

I know it's hard to grasp, but the quality difference in players in the second round (especially that year) is light years away from the difference between the 22nd and 27th pick.

But that's not the point. I wouldn't have picked Tinordi in the first round. We swapped our 2nd for a 4th (happy now?) to do something that is to me mind-boggling.

Tinordi can be a good player and it will still end up a SMH pick.
For you there might be a big difference between a 2nd & a 4th....but for most teams there often is not it might be the 10 or 15 spots on their list. Teams do a lot of homework before drafting....but fans always have favourites without spending a whole year scouting. I'm not just talking about the habs these discussions go on with many teams.

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06-21-2011, 05:40 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by WestIslander View Post
If I were Gauthier/Timmins, I would trade down to 25th oto 30th and pick up a 2nd round draft pick as well.

Maybe a trading partner like Ottawa or Toronto is willing to talk to us about the 17th overall draft pick.
Is that really if you're only interested in forwards or are you dismissing the possibility of finding a good D at spot 17? (Klefborn, Morrow, etc...) Maybe I'm getting a bit too hyped up now that I'm just starting to read on the prospects available, but I don't think it would wise to risk passing this kind of talent.

Maybe for 21st & 36th overall.. but still that's a very sharp gamble.

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06-21-2011, 05:50 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Is that really if you're only interested in forwards or are you dismissing the possibility of finding a good D at spot 17? (Klefborn, Morrow, etc...) Maybe I'm getting a bit too hyped up now that I'm just starting to read on the prospects available, but I don't think it would wise to risk passing this kind of talent.

Maybe for 21st & 36th overall.. but still that's a very sharp gamble.
I'd be very excited to add Klefbom! On the other hand, picking up Musil, Clendening or Sproul in the 2nd round, and picking lower in the 1st would also be welcome.

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06-21-2011, 05:53 PM
  #339
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Originally Posted by vokiel View Post
Is that really if you're only interested in forwards or are you dismissing the possibility of finding a good D at spot 17? (Klefborn, Morrow, etc...) Maybe I'm getting a bit too hyped up now that I'm just starting to read on the prospects available, but I don't think it would wise to risk passing this kind of talent.

Maybe for 21st & 36th overall.. but still that's a very sharp gamble.
steep price for the 17th pick, the Ottawa offer that is

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06-21-2011, 05:57 PM
  #340
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steep price for the 17th pick, the Ottawa offer that is
Indeed, but if the price isn't high I would rather see the habs make the 17th pick.

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06-21-2011, 06:01 PM
  #341
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Here's a useful guide to what trading up and down has cost in the last decade: http://oilersnation.com/2011/6/17/up...n-at-the-draft

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06-21-2011, 06:03 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by Roulin View Post
Here's a useful guide to what trading up and down has cost in the last decade: http://oilersnation.com/2011/6/17/up...n-at-the-draft
Thanks

Quote:
2002 – Atlanta promises not to select Jay Bouwmeester second overall in exchange for 82nd overall pick and a fourth round selection in 2003.

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06-21-2011, 06:21 PM
  #343
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This is how it plays out friday (I know because I am a BOSS) :

If one of McKenzie's top 10 falls to 17 or if one of Beaulieu, Scheifele, or J.T. Miller (in that order in terms of priority) are available at 17, the Habs draft them.

Otherwise, the Habs trade down and get one of Puempel, Connor Murphy, Grimaldi, or Jenner (again in that order in terms of priority).

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06-21-2011, 11:43 PM
  #344
Harry Kakalovich
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Originally Posted by Em Ancien View Post
Did you see the kind of players available in the second?

I know it's hard to grasp, but the quality difference in players in the second round (especially that year) is light years away from the difference between the 22nd and 27th pick.

But that's not the point. I wouldn't have picked Tinordi in the first round. We swapped our 2nd for a 4th (happy now?) to do something that is to me mind-boggling.

Tinordi can be a good player and it will still end up a SMH pick.
Oh yeah, I was in a sim league too and I knew that draft real well. Actually, I've read a lot of statistical analysis on drafts, and so I have a very good understanding of how they shake out. There are two big dropoff points in drafts, the first around the 10-15 range, and the second around 100. The Habs traded up to get a guy they felt was in the first range, and they dropped a range (although I think they are pretty high on MacMillan).

The Coyotes used pick #57 to select Oscar Lindberg. We'll see how he turns out. I doubt the difference between the two prospects is all that great. In retrospect I suppose people would want to select Jason Zucker with that pick? I don't know, or Greg McKegg? Who knows. I like MacMillan, and the Habs do well managing their assets. It's pretty hard to say all that much one year later, but certainly MacMillan hasn't played poorly.

I totally understand you not liking Tinordi personally. That's evident. Hell, I don't even know yet if I like him. But a 6'5 or 6'6 or 6'7 dman who can play top four minutes is definitely worth a lot in the NHL. Maybe Tinordi doesn't work out, but you don't get something for nothing, and the Habs saw a kid that they are excited about. I love Justin Faulk, I think he is a fantastic dman, and he was a great pick for Carolina at 37, but if Tinordi pans out, then absolutely he could be worth passing on Justin Faulk, or Emerson Etem. And well worth the trade up as well (which I view as pretty negligible, TBH - it didn't even cost them a pick!). Only time will tell.

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Old
06-21-2011, 11:47 PM
  #345
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I'm taking a flyer and saying Russians are back in fashion in Montreal. Doubt it, but it's as good a reason to make a random pick as any.

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06-22-2011, 12:58 AM
  #346
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Originally Posted by CrimsonSkorpion View Post
I said it in my blog, and I still stand by my opinion;

McNeill
Scheifele
Jensen

There are others that I'd be okay with, but those three are the ideal ones, in my opinion.
I agree with McNeil Scheifele but like Puempel over Jensen. D go for Morrow if he is still there he is ready to play now.

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06-22-2011, 07:43 AM
  #347
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# 17

McNeill One of the few that I saw play. Not shy at all. Another Getzlaffian opportunity? NIKITA KUCHEROV
is intrigueing. Why not go for the home run?


Last edited by toshiro: 06-22-2011 at 07:54 AM.
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06-22-2011, 07:45 AM
  #348
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McNeill One of the few that I saw play. Not shy at all. Another Getzlaffian opportunity?
He looks more like a Mike Fisher then a Getzlaf with what I've read about him. The hands and vision seem very questionnable to be a top 6 forward.

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06-22-2011, 07:58 AM
  #349
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He looks more like a Mike Fisher then a Getzlaf with what I've read about him. The hands and vision seem very questionnable to be a top 6 forward.
Bobby Mac describes him as a "crafty playmaker." He has good size and goes to the net. He would need to develop of course.

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06-22-2011, 08:08 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by Bullsmith View Post
I'm taking a flyer and saying Russians are back in fashion in Montreal. Doubt it, but it's as good a reason to make a random pick as any.
That would be exciting! Heck even if we take a Swede or Finn that would be something new!

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