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does Colborne's presence mean Kadri's going to be traded?

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Old
06-20-2011, 06:37 AM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Courage View Post
One definition of "speculation" is; reasoning based on inconclusive evidence; conjecture or supposition.

Yup, this is speculation.
Gotta love those dictionaries

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06-20-2011, 06:49 AM
  #77
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Better not be. Colborne may be big but he's a gentle giant. Kadri has that fire in his belly that I don't see from Colborne.

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06-20-2011, 07:00 AM
  #78
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I wasn't going to dignify this thread with a response, but I gave in. Kadri is younger, more experienced, has higher potential. Yes, Colborne has high potential as well but him reaching that potential is more of a crap shoot than Kadri and will probably take longer (in fact it probably already has). The only reason Kadri hasn't been a roster regular is because Burke believes he isn't quite developed enough to crack the top 6 and refuses to play him in the bottom 6 (the right decision in my mind). BUT, every player has a price. If we were offered a 1st line center (Stastney etc..) Burke would have to think about it but I don't see him going anywhere.

In short: Kadri >> Colborne

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06-20-2011, 07:00 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by agreement View Post
and you speculated back then that Tukka Rask was the far superior goaltender?
I did. In fact I threw my remote control across the room when they announced it. One of only two times I've done that as a Leaf fan, which is saying a lot as I've been watching religiously for close to 40 years now (which includes the Ballard years).

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06-20-2011, 07:11 AM
  #80
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Both are young prospects. I don't see how one, supplants the other. One, both or neither could make the team out of camp this season. Depends on so many factors.

It will be at least two or more seasons, before one of them overtakes the other on the big team. If at all. Neither is guaranteed a spot.

You don't look at prospects and get rid of those that are double at projected NHL positions. If you have two potential #1C's, then as GM, you thank your lucky stars, and hope that at least one actually develops into one.

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06-20-2011, 07:18 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by agreement View Post
A few things make me think of this:

Colborne has the potential to be a Burke-like big Center.
Colborne was acquired because he is close to NHL ready.
Kadri seems to be 2 years behind in development.
Kadri was drafted because he was the best available player at number 7.
If Kadri is best suited for the wing (a 3rd line winger), than couldn't Burke just pick up a better winger via free agency?
Yes and the presence of Bergeron and Krejci mean Seguin is going to be traded. The presence of Richards, Carter, Briere means Girioux is going to be dealt.

Interesting thought but you CAN have more than 1 good prospect.

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06-20-2011, 07:23 AM
  #82
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Good God

How is Kadri 2 years behind? Not all players are gonna jump into the NHL at 18 and have an impact.

Also, FYI, Kadri is younger then Colborne and has proven more.

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06-20-2011, 07:28 AM
  #83
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Originally Posted by agreement View Post
maybe it's just me, but i keep hearing Burke refer to Colborne as "close to NHL ready", and I never hear him refer to kadri in the same way. A lot of people believe that Kadri still needs seasoning in the AHL. I too believe that. 2 years behind in development is a little strong i guess. I just expect a lot more from him, yet i get a sense that Colborne will get better opportunities this season.
Maybe that's because Kadri IS NHL ready.

Also, it doesn't matter what people on here think. There's a reason why they're on here and not out there.

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06-20-2011, 08:04 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by DrkSideOfDaMoon View Post
Gotta love those dictionaries
Never leave home without one.

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06-20-2011, 08:19 AM
  #85
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If by a Burke type player you mean a power forward, that is not Joe's game. He might use his size like Sundin some day but that would be it. The primary requirement for Burke is talent, and Kadri has more than Colborne. If the Kadri shift to wing is permanent, it would still be with the goal of being top 6 even top 3. If you consider MacArthur as iffy because of his career before last season, and contract status (I do), then they really only have 3 top 6 forward spots filled for the long term. They need more of these guys, not
less. No guarantees, but it seems like Kadri has a solid shot at sticking in the NHL this year. There is almost zero chance Joe starts the season with the big club. He has only had a 20 game successful run as a pro and has to prove he can continue that. He is far from proven and isn't fighting for NKs spot on any depth chart. Colorado made Sakic and Forsberg fit, the Pens have Crosby and Malkin, the Leafs will find a way to fit Kadri and Colborne

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06-20-2011, 08:22 AM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agreement View Post
A few things make me think of this:

Colborne has the potential to be a Burke-like big Center.
Colborne was acquired because he is close to NHL ready.
Kadri seems to be 2 years behind in development.
Kadri was drafted because he was the best available player at number 7.
If Kadri is best suited for the wing (a 3rd line winger), than couldn't Burke just pick up a better winger via free agency?
Good job, I especially like how a player drafted two years ago is two years behind in his development.

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06-20-2011, 08:30 AM
  #87
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top 6 forwards:

Lupul Colborne Kessel
MacArthur Grabo Kulimen

Lupul Kadri Kessel
MacArthur Grabo Kulimen

Lupul Richards Kessel
Kadri Grabo Kulimen

it's sound logic to me. Kadri is not far enough along to supplant MacArthur, or to take a roster spot away from a 1C. everyone is putting Colborne down. if he truly is that bad than i guess we should have gone with the bag of pucks trade option from Boston. i think you have to trust Burke's talent assessment when he says that "Colborne is close to NHL ready".

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06-20-2011, 08:32 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Good job, I especially like how a player drafted two years ago is two years behind in his development.
it's easy. if he is going to be groomed to be a top 6 player, than expect him to be playing for the Marlies for another couple of seasons. two years behind.

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06-20-2011, 08:38 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by agreement View Post
it's easy. if he is going to be groomed to be a top 6 player, than expect him to be playing for the Marlies for another couple of seasons. two years behind.
Forwards who play at a PPG pace in the AHL in their rookie year don't tend to spend another two seasons in that league.

Your lesson for the day.

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06-20-2011, 08:46 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK View Post
Forwards who play at a PPG pace in the AHL in their rookie year don't tend to spend another two seasons in that league.

Your lesson for the day.
I don't think you follow the A enough to make your statement more than just conjecture.

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06-20-2011, 08:49 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agreement View Post
top 6 forwards:

Lupul Colborne Kessel
MacArthur Grabo Kulimen

Lupul Kadri Kessel
MacArthur Grabo Kulimen

Lupul Richards Kessel
Kadri Grabo Kulimen

it's sound logic to me. Kadri is not far enough along to supplant MacArthur, or to take a roster spot away from a 1C. everyone is putting Colborne down. if he truly is that bad than i guess we should have gone with the bag of pucks trade option from Boston. i think you have to trust Burke's talent assessment when he says that "Colborne is close to NHL ready".
Haha ... you're just stoking the fires.

You pointed out that Aulie means Beauchemen was gone - that's because he proved he was ready - and he OUTPLAYED Beach. Get to a point where Colborne is outplaying Kadri, then you can make your arguement, but even then chances are they move an older guy and make room for both.

Here's a tip - Player development is a progression over time. You don't have a crystal ball, and neither does anyone else - so to "guess" at who will end up being better and taking a risk of trading a guy based on that "guess" - well stupid doesn't begin to express it. Vegas LOVES guys like you

The only way Burke trades either guy is simple - for a proven top line centre who is 25 or under. Burke has shown - which I love - that his plan is to add as many prospects as possible, take your time with development, and see who can "earn" a spot. If they earn it, room will be made. If they can't beat out a guy on the big team - they play on the Marlies.

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06-20-2011, 08:51 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by agreement View Post
top 6 forwards:

Lupul Colborne Kessel
MacArthur Grabo Kulimen

Lupul Kadri Kessel
MacArthur Grabo Kulimen

Lupul Richards Kessel
Kadri Grabo Kulimen

it's sound logic to me. Kadri is not far enough along to supplant MacArthur, or to take a roster spot away from a 1C. everyone is putting Colborne down. if he truly is that bad than i guess we should have gone with the bag of pucks trade option from Boston. i think you have to trust Burke's talent assessment when he says that "Colborne is close to NHL ready".
So...are you trolling or are you actually this dense? Look around the boards a bit (you know, instead of starting tons of useless topics) and you'll see that many of us Leaf fans have Kadri playing 3rd line wing this year with Bozak & Army. Doesn't mean he isn't going to be a top-6 guy in the future, but just because he isn't already our #1 center doesn't mean he should be dumped off. But you need to understand that the Leafs are going to do with Kadri (and their other good prospects) whatever they can to properly develop them. Kadri played well enough in the AHL last year that there are plenty of people saying another year down there isn't going to help much. But in the same breathe most prospects need time to grow and not just be thrown in (which more often than not will actually hurt their development), which is why many fans are seeing Kadri on the 3rd line next year; get him in the NHL without putting too much pressure on him (think Seguin).

And as far as Colborne goes, like other posters have said (and you ignored, naturally), he's a long-term prospect. If I'm remembering correctly last year was his first AHL year, which was pretty horrible until coming to the Marlies. He will probably be the first call-up for any injuries to our centers since he is the best center prospect we have that won't be already in the NHL, but he needs a solid year of development before sticking around full-time as far as I'm concerned.

I just don't understand how you can't see that these two guys are not in any way, shape, or form making the other dispensable. Heaven forbid we have a Kadri/Colborne combo in a few years down the middle if Grabs ever leaves...that would just be horrible.

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06-20-2011, 08:57 AM
  #93
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Didn't we learn from rushing to trade Rask or Pogge? Just because you have Colburne+Kadri doesn't mean you need to trade either. It's in a good position to be in.

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06-20-2011, 08:58 AM
  #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drew75 View Post
Haha ... you're just stoking the fires.

You pointed out that Aulie means Beauchemen was gone - that's because he proved he was ready - and he OUTPLAYED Beach. Get to a point where Colborne is outplaying Kadri, then you can make your arguement, but even then chances are they move an older guy and make room for both.

Here's a tip - Player development is a progression over time. You don't have a crystal ball, and neither does anyone else - so to "guess" at who will end up being better and taking a risk of trading a guy based on that "guess" - well stupid doesn't begin to express it. Vegas LOVES guys like you

The only way Burke trades either guy is simple - for a proven top line centre who is 25 or under. Burke has shown - which I love - that his plan is to add as many prospects as possible, take your time with development, and see who can "earn" a spot. If they earn it, room will be made. If they can't beat out a guy on the big team - they play on the Marlies.
true and that's why it's only speculation. we'll see what unfolds. maybe Kadri will be left behind or maybe Colborne will. Maybe Colborne plays the entire season with the Marlies or maybe Kadri does. here's hoping there's healthy competition between the two. here's hoping Burke doesn't have to do anything hasty either.

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06-20-2011, 09:04 AM
  #95
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Hey OP.
Not too long ago we had 2 really solid prospects playing the same position.
Some claimed 1 of them was farther along in his development and we eventually ended up trading the other.

Justin Poggie and Tuukka Rask. How did that work out for us???
Or flip that question around and ask why?

Leafs GM traded Tuukka Rask, to address the need for instant help for the parent team, and because he felt he had depth at the position.

Leafs new GM may trade Nazem Kadri to address the need for instant help for the parent team, and because he felt he had depth at the position.

So the addition of Colborne is what creates depth at the position, put not necessarily for developing future assets, but rather being used as currency to obtain present ones.

Leaf management old or new was not deploying a building through the draft Plan, but rather re-tooling on the fly strategy in order to obtain quicker intended winning results.

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06-20-2011, 09:05 AM
  #96
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I think the simple answer to the question this thread poses is no, Kadri is not going to be traded because of Colborne's presence. I think this organization is going to treat Kadri and Colborne like you treat any asset, you determine what their potential is, and what their value would be on the trade market. If we get a deal that matches or exceeds that value, Kadri will be dealt. I think we've learned over the years that for the right return, any player can be made available, the question is whether or not it's a sideways move.

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06-20-2011, 09:19 AM
  #97
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I still don't understand how Kadri is two years behind in his development and there has been little explaination given on why you think that.

Kadri is younger than Colborne and has put up better numbers at each level. This year was both of their first seasons at the AHL level. In 44 games Kadri put up 41 points, while in 75 games Colborne had 42 points. Kadri is 20, has played in 30 NHL games and was PPG at the AHL level. How on earth do you see that as being 2 years behind in his development? He's outscoring many guys who are older and will be top 6 players one day in the NHL.

If Kadri is behind in his development by two years, then almost every other prospect playing in the AHL will never sniff the NHL.

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06-20-2011, 09:34 AM
  #98
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I think in one post the OP summed up why the Leafs have had a miserable time of late, trading away picks and prospects because they dont help NOW has been the mentality for years.

If you think we need to trade away a quality prospect for a bit of help right now then youre wrong.

It seems FINALLY the penny has dropped and we're looking for picks and young players to actually build something here !

Impatience is whats lead us to where we are now, trading away the future just to save face and scrape into the playoffs.. NO THANKS !

Kadri is just fine thanks, let him develop and he'll be a top player ! I've heard it said many times that being picked up by the Leafs ruins many great prospects due to unrealistic expectations and pressure.

Kadri isnt "2 years behind" where he should be! trading him away for someone who'll be retired while kadris still banging goals in for his new team would be a BIG MISTAKE.

Patience is what we've lacked for years and need to have with this young team now !

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06-20-2011, 09:35 AM
  #99
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I'm pretty sure when Burke was being asked about trades during the season, he mentioned that Schenn and Kadri weren't up for discussion. Kadri has shown in improvement and what I like about Burke compared to past GMs, he's not ready to trade away prospects at the first sign of struggle. He knows that players develop at different rates and as long as a player shows the skill and determination to get better and succeed, I think Burke will give them the opportunity to develop without fear of being shipped off.

It doesn't have to come down to one or another. Both are young and I think both will be given the chance to develop and I think it's even better to have two young guys competing against one another for a spot. It's a great motivation for these guys to work harder. Unless another team wants to severely overpay for him, I don't see Kadri being traded anytime soon.

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06-20-2011, 09:36 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by RonnieB13 View Post
yes, we have two good centermen men players in the ranks...so we have to trade one, i mean, two is way too many and we should legally only have one....
In a year Grabovski is a UFA and Kulemin is and RFA so we'd need to clear cap space, and by then hopefully Kadri will be good enough to be #2 centre so we could package Grabovski in a deal to get a bona fide #1 line centre if we dont already have one.

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