You would think with all those picks in the first 2 rounds and all that free cap space from dumping players near the end of the season that the sens could land 1 or 2 top offensive players. Spezza-Heatley-Alfie line got the sens to the finals in 07. I say they should make a move to acquire someone like Carter or Sharp. Will they be able to land a player of this caliber?
You would think that by looking at the Sens moves this past year, that there was a strong indication that they were dumping contracts to save money and build for the future, not load up on awful bloated contracts so they could pretend like they were ready to make another Cup run.
Check out any comment made by any member of the Sens front office or ownership over the past 3-4 months to see if there is any willingness to go crazy on big name, big contract players. When you see that, then we can talk hypotheticals. Until then, it's probably best to layer your expectations with the direction the team has clearly been moving towards over the past 6 months.
Yesterday this was at least in the realm of possible... but with the news today that the cap going up by $5mil, I doubt either Chicago or Philly needs to move either one of those guys.
And they're probably not LOOKING to deal them either, if they don't have to. Sucks for us that the cap went up by so much this year.
I would rather build through the draft safe way to do it without the loaded contracts. It will take time but it will be worth it in the long run. I say go for some one like ryder
I'd rather build through the draft for the next year or two. We don't have the assets to trade for such a player (not without causing a major hole in another aspect of the team anyway).
You would think that by looking at the Sens moves this past year, that there was a strong indication that they were dumping contracts to save money and build for the future, not load up on awful bloated contracts so they could pretend like they were ready to make another Cup run.
Check out any comment made by any member of the Sens front office or ownership over the past 3-4 months to see if there is any willingness to go crazy on big name, big contract players. When you see that, then we can talk hypotheticals. Until then, it's probably best to layer your expectations with the direction the team has clearly been moving towards over the past 6 months.
There is two ways you can look at the moves last year sure one way is there doing it to save mone they other is there doing it to free up money to go after a couple big names.
You would think with all those picks in the first 2 rounds and all that free cap space from dumping players near the end of the season that the sens could land 1 or 2 top offensive players. Spezza-Heatley-Alfie line got the sens to the finals in 07. I say they should make a move to acquire someone like Carter or Sharp. Will they be able to land a player of this caliber?
There is no question that they have the ability & the assets to land a big name player. But the bigger question is do they want to trade away picks or assets to do it when they can acquire a top 6 forward through free agency as they did with Gonchar & build through the draft.
I think if you are close to winning the cup than you should trade away assets to get that players that put you over the top. But if you are rebuilding than you should continue to rebuild & avoid the short cuts that could hurt the rebuild. I would wait another yr to see if some of our players that we had & have high hopes for begin to pan out & contribute consistently to this team.
You would think with all those picks in the first 2 rounds and all that free cap space from dumping players near the end of the season that the sens could land 1 or 2 top offensive players. Spezza-Heatley-Alfie line got the sens to the finals in 07. I say they should make a move to acquire someone like Carter or Sharp. Will they be able to land a player of this caliber?
If the finals taught us anything. It's not to have ONE good line.
Look at Boston, they didn't have a CASH line, but they had massive depth and were able to continue even with big losses like Horton (and Savard for the whole season).
If we go for a player like Jeff Carter, we'll give up to much and be back to the one line team format, which doesn't work. I want depth and the ability to roll four lines.
See: Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, Philadelphia, any good team in the league.
If the finals taught us anything. It's not to have ONE good line.
Look at Boston, they didn't have a CASH line, but they had massive depth and were able to continue even with big losses like Horton (and Savard for the whole season).
If we go for a player like Jeff Carter, we'll give up to much and be back to the one line team format, which doesn't work. I want depth and the ability to roll four lines.
See: Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, Philadelphia, any good team in the league.
If the finals taught us anything. It's not to have ONE good line.
Look at Boston, they didn't have a CASH line, but they had massive depth and were able to continue even with big losses like Horton (and Savard for the whole season).
If we go for a player like Jeff Carter, we'll give up to much and be back to the one line team format, which doesn't work. I want depth and the ability to roll four lines.
See: Boston, Chicago, Vancouver, Philadelphia, any good team in the league.
To play the devil's advocate here, Jeff Carter is a natural centre. By acquiring him Ottawa would have 2 top centres, much like the teams you listed. However, the cap increased enough to likely allow for Philadelphia to sign Ilya and retain Carter, so the point is moot, likely.
No one is at all concerned that Carter has signed a ridiculous contract that runs through 2022? Let me repeat that: 2022. No team should be committed to a player for that length of time without living to regret it at some point. No thanks. Maybe if he was a franchise player, but he's clearly not that.
Jeff Carter is a centreman, yeah, let's build through the draft and hope that a prospect turns out to be remotely half as good as a true proven performer. I think that the draft has role, I honestly do (while I had fun with Cliff Fletcher's terminology of the draft), but if you want to build through the draft as you all preach, you might as well get rid of Jason Spezza, Daniel Alfredsson and Sergei Gonchar. So long as we have these pieces and a goalie who can actually make some saves, the Ottawa Senators are going to try and win the Stanley Cup. We have pieces and with the cap rising, we will get more pieces IF the young guys that we have vying for a spot and are counted on injecting some youthfulness and energy, pan out. Condra, Butler, Greening, Cowen, Rundblad.
I think Ottawa may get a chance at getting Carter but see what the price is, of course. I know the Flyers are up against the cap but I don't think he will be availabe.
Jeff Carter is a centreman, yeah, let's build through the draft and hope that a prospect turns out to be remotely half as good as a true proven performer. I think that the draft has role, I honestly do (while I had fun with Cliff Fletcher's terminology of the draft), but if you want to build through the draft as you all preach, you might as well get rid of Jason Spezza, Daniel Alfredsson and Sergei Gonchar. So long as we have these pieces and a goalie who can actually make some saves, the Ottawa Senators are going to try and win the Stanley Cup.
Here's the big mystery with regards to Spezza, Alfie and Gonchar (and Phillips if you want). All except Spezza will be here 2 seasons max. While they are here, they will mentor the younger players being integrated into the lineup and insulate them while they develop. In Gonchar's case, this isn't necessarily what he signed up for but that's the situation now. Alfie will retire a Sen in 1 or 2 seasons. Phillips and Gonchar could possibly be dealt for future assets before their contracts expire or they will simply play out their contracts in the mentor role. Phillips and Alfie definitely are on board with this and have made their peace with these roles (and presumably Gonchar as well).
Spezza is still young and will be the 1st line centre the team will build around and along with Lehner, Rundblad, Karlsson and Cowen (among others).
This is the strategy. Things may accelerate or take longer to develop but that's the plan. The plan however, does not involve bringing in big name, big dollar, big term free agents right now. That serves no purpose and is something a garbage franchise like the Leafs would do.
Here's the big mystery with regards to Spezza, Alfie and Gonchar (and Phillips if you want). All except Spezza will be here 2 seasons max. While they are here, they will mentor the younger players being integrated into the lineup and insulate them while they develop. In Gonchar's case, this isn't necessarily what he signed up for but that's the situation now. Alfie will retire a Sen in 1 or 2 seasons. Phillips and Gonchar could possibly be dealt for future assets before their contracts expire or they will simply play out their contracts in the mentor role. Phillips and Alfie definitely are on board with this and have made their peace with these roles (and presumably Gonchar as well).
Spezza is still young and will be the 1st line centre the team will build around and along with Lehner, Rundblad, Karlsson and Cowen (among others).
This is the strategy. Things may accelerate or take longer to develop but that's the plan. The plan however, does not involve bringing in big name, big dollar, big term free agents right now. That serves no purpose and is something a garbage franchise like the Leafs would do.
While I am in agreement with much of what you have to say, I do not think adding a player via free agency is a violation of a good rebuild model.
Personally I think a rebuild can be accelerated by adding UFAs where an organization lacks prospect depth and talent.
For example, the team will in all likelyhood draft a center with the sixth pick, who will be the second line center behind Spezza in the next few years. The Sens also have Regin, Smith, and Winchester, so they do have some depth. Therefore it makes little sense for the Sens to add a second line center now via trade or free agency.
However, left wing is a position that the Sens have little depth, so signing Leino, Fleischmann, or Jokinen makes good sense as it fills an immediate need, and makes the team more competitive. It really makes sense to sign one of these players, as it helps maximize the investment the Sens are making in Spezza, Alfie and Michalek, and the other veterans.
So while I am not in favour of trading away either of the first round picks for 2011 to make a big splash in the trade market, I will be very disappointed if Murray doesn't at least add one left winger via free agency this summer.
Last edited by Holdurbreathe: 06-20-2011 at 10:14 PM.
Jeff Carter is a centreman, yeah, let's build through the draft and hope that a prospect turns out to be remotely half as good as a true proven performer. I think that the draft has role, I honestly do (while I had fun with Cliff Fletcher's terminology of the draft), but if you want to build through the draft as you all preach, you might as well get rid of Jason Spezza, Daniel Alfredsson and Sergei Gonchar. So long as we have these pieces and a goalie who can actually make some saves, the Ottawa Senators are going to try and win the Stanley Cup. We have pieces and with the cap rising, we will get more pieces IF the young guys that we have vying for a spot and are counted on injecting some youthfulness and energy, pan out. Condra, Butler, Greening, Cowen, Rundblad.
I think Ottawa may get a chance at getting Carter but see what the price is, of course. I know the Flyers are up against the cap but I don't think he will be availabe.
I think you were making sense until you added this line.
The Sens aren't close to competing for the cup, don't even go there. If the Sens added Carter, Leino,and Jokinen they still wouldn't be cup contenders. Playoff bound, potentially, contenders, not a chance.
IMO Murray is well aware of the injury risks, the need for bounce back years from many of his veterans, the ups and downs of young developing players, and that Anderson will not play 82 games at the level he did at the end last year. So I doubt he is under the illusion his team just needs to make a trade for a second line center, add a UFA or two, and they are competing for the SC.
Regarding Carter specifically, I doubt Philly will even entertain offers with the cap now set at $64M. If Philly should move him, it would take overpayment, and the price in draft picks/prospects would set a team like Ottawa back years.
It the cap era you can short cut i.e. you don't have to build from the ground up through the draft. Look at Boston.
You can be a contender quick provided you have some key elements.
Ottawa has a star 1st line center
A possible #1 type dman with more infusion of talent coming in and 2 vets that have shown they could play at a very high level in Gonchar and Phillips, both only in their early to mid 30's with plenty in the tank.
Andersson...to me he is the key. If he is great you can explore signing big name guys and trying to win NOW.
If not, it will all fail.
The guys you wanna sign you have tro think about their playing style, character, compete level etc etc not just talent.
As long as you do that you will win. Ottawa was a tough team to beat in the last 2 months or so of the season when Anderson came in. You add 2 really good players to that and you are talking.
I am not against signing a free agent or two (or going the trade route) but in no way should the Sens be giving up major future assets or committing large salary to these pieces. So if they feel the need to patch some holes this way (and Murray has stated that he would like to find a Top 6 guy this summer), then fine, but it should not be someone you need to blow the bank on (in dollars or assets).
Overpaying slightly for mid-tier free agents who can add value within the Top 6 (such as Fleischman, Laich or Jokinnen) makes sense because they are closer to the age where they could grow with the core of the team and you won't have to give them ridiculous term on their deals. They can patch holes until younger prospects are ready to take up the mantle or if they prove themselves worthy, they can be re-signed and continue to grow with the core.
Ottawa was a tough team to beat in the last 2 months or so of the season when Anderson came in. You add 2 really good players to that and you are talking.
The biggest mistake you can make in pro sports is to take a small sample size at the end of the season once the pressure is off and your opponents have different priorities (getting ready for the playoffs etc.) and attempt to extrapolate that over the following season. The Leafs have done this for the past 3 years and it has burned them every time.
Take the year as a whole as a barometer on where the team is, not how they played after the trade deadline when nothing mattered anymore and all the guys were just playing more or less for fun.
Last edited by DefenseMinister: 06-21-2011 at 08:34 AM.
It the cap era you can short cut i.e. you don't have to build from the ground up through the draft. Look at Boston.
You can be a contender quick provided you have some key elements.
Ottawa has a star 1st line center
A possible #1 type dman with more infusion of talent coming in and 2 vets that have shown they could play at a very high level in Gonchar and Phillips, both only in their early to mid 30's with plenty in the tank.
Andersson...to me he is the key. If he is great you can explore signing big name guys and trying to win NOW.
If not, it will all fail.
The guys you wanna sign you have tro think about their playing style, character, compete level etc etc not just talent.
As long as you do that you will win. Ottawa was a tough team to beat in the last 2 months or so of the season when Anderson came in. You add 2 really good players to that and you are talking.
It took Bostom 10 years and some good fortune created by the implementation of the cap to assembled the roster that won the cup. I put together a summary of a majority of the transactions that Chiarelli made since 2006, and the assets that he inherited. It is very obviously Chiarelli didn't achieve instant success or results by adding one or two pieces.
Chiarelli's transactions (* denotes prior to Chiarelli)
UFA: Tim Thomas 2001*, Zedeno Chara 2006, Marc Savard 2006, Shawn Thorton 2007, Michael Ryder 2008
Drafted: Patrice Bergeron 2003*, David Krecji 2004*, Brad Marchand 2006, Milan Lucic 2006, Tyler Segin 2010.
Trades under Chairelli (unsorted):
From Toronto Tomas Kaberle, to Toronto Joe Colborne, 2011 first round pick, a second round pick.
From Ottawa Chris Kelly, to Ottawa 2011 second round pick.
From Atlanta Rich Peverley, Boris Valabik, to Atlanta Blake Wheeler and Mark Stuart.
From Florida Nathan Horton, Gregory Campbell, to Florida Dennis Wideman, 2010 first round pick, 2011 third round pick.
From Florida Dennis Seidenerg and Matt Bartkowsk, to Florida Byron Bitz, Craig Weller, second round draft pick.
From Philly Ned Lukacevic, 2009 fourth-round pick, to Philly Andrew Alberts.
From Buffalo Daniel Paille, to Buffalo 2009 third round pick, conditional fourth round pick.
From Tampa Mark Recchi, 2010 second round pick to Tampa Mārtiņš Karsums and Matt Lashoff.
From Toronto 2010 first round pick, 2010 second round pick, 2011 first round pick, to Toronto Phil Kessel.
From Chicago Martin St. Pierre, to Chicago Pascal Pelletier.
From Colorado Johnny Boychuk, to Colorado Matt Hendricks.
From Columbus Matt Marquardt, to Columbus Jonathan Sigalet.
From Anaheim Shane Hnidy, 2008 sixth-round pick (Nicholas Tremblay), to Anaheim Brandon Bochenski.
From Phoenix Alex Auld, to Phoenix Nate DiCasmirro, 2009 fifth round pick.
From Anaheim: Brett Skinner, Nathan Saunders, to Anaheim Mark Mowers.
From NYI Petteri Nokelainen, to NYI Ben Walter, 2009 second round pick.
From St. Louis Carl Soderberg, to St. Louis Hannu Toivonen.
From Ottawa Peter Schaefer, to Ottawa Shean Donovan.
From Minnesota Manny Fernandez, to Minnesota Petr Kalus, 2009 fourth round pick.
From Columbus Adam McQuaid, to Columbus 2007-fifth round pick (Jamie Bern).
From St. Louis: Dennis Wideman, to St. Louis Brad Boyes.
From the Rangers Aaron Ward, to Rangers Paul Mara.
From Calgary Andrew Ference, Chuck Kobasew, to Calgary Brad Stuart, Wayne Primeau, 2008 fourth round pick (T.J. Brodie).
From Chicago Brandon Bochenski, to Chicago Kris Versteeg.
From Washington 2008 fourth round pick, later traded to Calgary, to Washington Milan Jurcina.
From St. Louis 2007 fifth round pick (Denis Reul), to St. Louis Yan Stastny.
From Pittsburgh: Future considerations, to Pittsburgh Wade Brookbank.
From Phoenix: Philippe Sauve, to Phoenix Tyler Redenbach.
From Anaheim: Stanislav Chistov, to Anaheim 2007 third round pick (Maxime Macenauer).
From Toronto Tuukka Rask, to Toronto Andrew Raycroft. *
I did this to debunk the theory that building a SC competitive team is as simple as adding a few UFAs. It takes time, and as Chiarelli has openly stated, lots of luck.
Joel Ward, Sean Bergenheim and Tomas Kopecky are all UFA and would make great signings and there is plenty of cap space. If they added them and Carter that is an epic 2 lines and a good 3rd line.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS Jason Spezza ($7.000m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.200m)
Sean Bergenheim ($0.700m) / Daniel Alfredsson ($4.875m) / Joel Ward ($1.500m)
Milan Michalek ($4.333m) / Peter Regin ($1.000m) / Nick Foligno ($1.200m)
Zack Smith ($0.700m) / Chris Neil ($2.000m) / Jesse Winchester ($0.750m)
/ / Colin Greening ($0.816m)
DEFENSEMEN
Sergei Gonchar ($5.500m) / Filip Kuba ($3.700m)
Chris Phillips ($3.083m) / Erik Karlsson ($1.300m)
Brian Lee ($0.875m) / Matt Carkner ($0.700m)
GOALTENDERS
Craig Anderson ($3.187m)
BUYOUTS: Jonathan Cheechoo ($1.166m) / Daniel Alfredsson ($0.700m) / Ray Emery ($0.562m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $52,122,727; BONUSES: $425,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $7,277,273
Joel Ward, Sean Bergenheim and Tomas Kopecky are all UFA and would make great signings and there is plenty of cap space. If they added them and Carter that is an epic 2 lines and a good 3rd line.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS Jason Spezza ($7.000m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m) / Tomas Kopecky ($1.200m)
Sean Bergenheim ($0.700m) / Daniel Alfredsson ($4.875m) / Joel Ward ($1.500m)
That's a horrible top six. Ward and Bergenheim both got under 30 points this year, and Kopecky had like 40. They aren't top six forwards.
Not to mention the fact that they are all going to cost double what you put there.
If we had that top six I would find myself jealous of the Leafs
No need for Crosby, Stamkos, Richards, Carter, Insert Big Name Here players. We're rebuilding, and rebuilding teams build through the draft. If in a few years we're one player away from being a serious contender for the Cup, then fine, sign a big name player. But not now, never now
