HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Habs to Offer Hamrlik a Contract? (Yyyyikes!) (UPD: Offered 1-yr contract post #683)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-22-2011, 09:33 PM
  #401
macavoy
Registered User
 
macavoy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Houston, Tx
Country: United States
Posts: 7,779
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And that has beem the hallmark in Montreal for the last 18 years. Take the safe road that ensures having a decent team instead of taking risks that could lead to a more successful team.

Yeah it's not like they'd trade the playoff hero in Halak and keep Carey Price or anything...


ummmm


actually trading Halak was the "safe road'. Price was always the thorough bread. But Halak is a wildcard that can potentially pay off dividends in the playoffs. Halak has proven he can go on a hotstreak when the pressure is on.

Price hasn't done that yet but still has that thoroughbred potential. Trading Halak was 100% the safe move.

PG would have been burnt at the stake if he traded Price. I bet there would have been an off season, in the middle of the summer riot if Price was traded. Yea everyone got aboard the Halak band wagon and love in last summer but if Price was traded, the city would have rioted.

We would have made the Vancouver riot 2 weeks ago look like childs play.

macavoy is online now  
Old
06-22-2011, 09:42 PM
  #402
Pax Macioretty
Registered User
 
Pax Macioretty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: hockey city
Posts: 15,076
vCash: 500
Hamrlik was top 3.... We made the playoffs with Hamrlik.... Bla bla bla...
Look at our freackin D!

Markov-Emelin
Gill-Subban
Gorges-Weber
Spacek

How in the world is signing Hamrlik a good thing??? We are missing 2 things at the moment. 1) A lefty pp shooter for Markov and 2) nasty defensmen with grit. Does Hamrlik bring any of those 2 aspects? Not at all!!! That's not mentioning that he went completely MIA at the end of the last season cause he was gassed out. Why in the world would we resign him when both Markov and Wiz are unsigned and we have the cash to pay both? IMO it would be nothing less then a catastrophy to get him back, even at 1 mil, not only because of the players but because of the kids that have to sit back and watch instead of making the mistakes themselves and learning from it.

Pax Macioretty is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 09:45 PM
  #403
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Hamrlik was top 3.... We made the playoffs with Hamrlik.... Bla bla bla...
Look at our freackin D!

Markov-Emelin
Gill-Subban
Gorges-Weber
Spacek

How in the world is signing Hamrlik a good thing??? We are missing 2 things at the moment. 1) A lefty pp shooter for Markov and 2) nasty defensmen with grit. Does Hamrlik bring any of those 2 aspects? Not at all!!! That's not mentioning that he went completely MIA at the end of the last season cause he was gassed out. Why in the world would we resign him when both Markov and Wiz are unsigned and we have the cash to pay both? IMO it would be nothing less then a catastrophy to get him back, even at 1 mil, not only because of the players but because of the kids that have to sit back and watch instead of making the mistakes themselves and learning from it.
funny thing is, most of whom were against Gill re-signing had the same reasonning...

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 09:54 PM
  #404
neofury*
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal, PQ
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,277
vCash: 500
If Hammer is signed I'm pretty sure it's because Spacek won't be with us. We have Emelin and Weber who are going to need to play. Speculation on the part of McGuire (might have been Bobby Mac) was that Emelin is ready for a top 4 role and we'll all be greatly surprised apparently.

I know that we'll have to wait and see but it just doesn't seem likely they'd sign a potential top 4 nasty D for 1 million if they didn't intend for him to play that role. Weber got a 2 year deal, he isn't likely going anywhere at the draft. I would assume if he was he'd be signed to 1 year. Diaz was added and already I'm hearing one season in Hamilton tops.

Something doesn't add up if Hammer is signed. Imo we're in for a trade.

neofury* is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 09:56 PM
  #405
Pax Macioretty
Registered User
 
Pax Macioretty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: hockey city
Posts: 15,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
funny thing is, most of whom were against Gill re-signing had the same reasonning...
Not really, cause Gill is an out of this world leader that took our most hot-headed prospect in charge and turned him into a pro. Hamrlik DOES NOT have those qualities. Not to mention Gill was probably a top 5 pk player in the whole league last season.

Pax Macioretty is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 09:59 PM
  #406
Pax Macioretty
Registered User
 
Pax Macioretty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: hockey city
Posts: 15,076
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by neofury View Post

Something doesn't add up if Hammer is signed. Imo we're in for a trade.
even if we do trade Spacek, one of Emelin/Weber will not play...

Pax Macioretty is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 10:06 PM
  #407
Melvin Udall
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,307
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ghost # 1 View Post
He may not have EXPERIENCED the success... But he was the guy at the helm that BUILT the Senators, & the Ducks (the championship team). They made the finals the next year, and most of the same puzzle remained when they went for, and won the cup in '07.

No, the facts don't bear that out:

4 months after his return to Anaheim,
No Playoffs 98
1 round 99
No Playoffs 00
No Playoffs 01
No Playoffs 02

The Ducks did not win the Cup till 2007 - Gauthier was fired from the Ducks after the 2002 season and Bryan Murray, then Al Coates managed the team till Burke took over in 2005.

Burke added some very key pieces to the Anaheim team that won the Cup including Pronger, Gezlaf and Perry just to name a few.

If Gauthier had indeed done such a great job of team building in Anaheim it would make little sense to fire him! But his record in Anaheim would indicate no such success!

As GM of the Ottawa senators:

No Playoffs in 95
No Playoffs in 96
Lose 1st round in 1997

From '97 TO 2006 inclusive (10 years) Sens won 5 playoff rounds total - by the time they got to the Cup Final in 2007 - Gauthier had been gone for 9 years!

The truth is - most of the Sens team that reached the Cup Finals in 2007 was put together by John Muckler.....not Pierre Gauthier!

His record in Ottowa seems not significantly better (although he did not 'officailly' get fired!) than his record in Anaheim....where he did get fired!





Melvin Udall is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 10:32 PM
  #408
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxpac View Post
Not really, cause Gill is an out of this world leader that took our most hot-headed prospect in charge and turned him into a pro. Hamrlik DOES NOT have those qualities. Not to mention Gill was probably a top 5 pk player in the whole league last season.
out of this world leader, really...

and yet, our PK wasnt as good last season (after Gorges injury)...

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 10:35 PM
  #409
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
out of this world leader, really...

and yet, our PK wasnt as good last season (after Gorges injury)...
What's your point? One of the top penalty killing dmen in the league loses his top penalty killing partner and things aren't as good as before? I'm shocked. Absolutely shocked.

Fish on The Sand is online now  
Old
06-22-2011, 10:41 PM
  #410
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
What's your point? One of the top penalty killing dmen in the league loses his top penalty killing partner and things aren't as good as before? I'm shocked. Absolutely shocked.
well, he's top 5... find him a decent (not good, decent) partner and he'll be a' right dont you think ? I mean, the guy is top 5 on the PK, in the whole league...

actually, thinking Gill is top 5 in anything is completely ********...

I'll give you an example of top 5 in something : with Souray as a partner, then with Streit, and finally MaB... going from the Koivu/Kovalev duo at forwards to the likes of Camm, Gionta, etc... and yet this guy still produces like one of the best PP QB in the league (if not THE best)... that my friend is top 5 in something...


Last edited by ECWHSWI: 06-22-2011 at 10:47 PM. Reason: typo
ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 10:54 PM
  #411
Hackett
HF Needs Feeny
 
Hackett's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 16,720
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by OneSharpMarble View Post
Gionta is replacable, no biggie. Cammy will be here after this contract. It already is a failed "plan" if that is what it was in the first place. Don't expect to accomplish much with gomez eating up 20+ minutes a night while dragging 2 good wingers into the mud.
Getting 25-30 goals on this club has not been easy. Gionta might be the only one to do that in the last two seasons consecutively.. I'll have to check on that.

Replaceable? Yes, but not as easy as one would think.

Hackett is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 11:00 PM
  #412
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
well, he's top 5... find him a decent (not good, decent) partner and he'll be a' right dont you think ? I mean, the guy is top 5 on the PK, in the whole league...

actually, thinking Gill is top 5 in anything is completely ********...

I'll give you an example of top 5 in something : with Souray as a partner, then with Streit, and finally MaB... going from the Koivu/Kovalev duo at forwards to the likes of Camm, Gionta, etc... and yet this guy still produces like one of the best PP QB in the league (if not THE best)... that my friend is top 5 in something...
Markov has barely played with the new group. Gill however is a top 5 penalty killer, but that doesn't make him a one man penalty killing machine. He still needs help, like anybody. We saw how garbage our pp was when there was no trigger man after Streit left, and once again after Schneider left. If Markov was as good as you say we shouldn't have missed a beat right?

Fish on The Sand is online now  
Old
06-22-2011, 11:37 PM
  #413
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Markov has barely played with the new group. Gill however is a top 5 penalty killer, but that doesn't make him a one man penalty killing machine. He still needs help, like anybody. We saw how garbage our pp was when there was no trigger man after Streit left, and once again after Schneider left. If Markov was as good as you say we shouldn't have missed a beat right?
based on what ?

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 11:42 PM
  #414
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Markov has barely played with the new group. Gill however is a top 5 penalty killer, but that doesn't make him a one man penalty killing machine. He still needs help, like anybody. We saw how garbage our pp was when there was no trigger man after Streit left, and once again after Schneider left. If Markov was as good as you say we shouldn't have missed a beat right?

we're not talking about going from great to very good, or very good to good here... our PK went from great to average... and we're not talking about missing ONE ingredient here (setup man, slap shot, etc), Gill IS the key ingredient being top5 in the league (according to you)...

our PK didnt missed a beat, it stopped working, period... and while ours stopped working, the Pens PK improved since Gill left...

so, he's top 5 on the PK based on what exactly ?

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
06-22-2011, 11:47 PM
  #415
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
we're not talking about going from great to very good, or very good to good here... our PK went from great to average... and we're not talking about missing ONE ingredient here (setup man, slap shot, etc), Gill IS the key ingredient being top5 in the league (according to you)...

our PK didnt missed a beat, it stopped working, period... and while ours stopped working, the Pens PK improved since Gill left...

so, he's top 5 on the PK based on what exactly ?
Our PK finished 7th in the league, how is that not working? Its not like Gill had much support out there on the pk after Gorges got hurt either. The decline of our pk after Gorges left is much less than the decline our pp had when the shooters were gone. Even this season, until we picked up Wiz our pp was laughably terrible.

Fish on The Sand is online now  
Old
06-22-2011, 11:54 PM
  #416
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Our PK finished 7th in the league, how is that not working? Its not like Gill had much support out there on the pk after Gorges got hurt either. The decline of our pk after Gorges left is much less than the decline our pp had when the shooters were gone. Even this season, until we picked up Wiz our pp was laughably terrible.
there was more or less half the season played when Gorges got injured, and we were top at the time... to go from 1st to 7th in basically half a season, you got to be worst that 7th...


maybe the guy you mention in that 2nd bolded part is the top PK guy (not top 5 mind you, but #1 on the team) and that's why our PK regressed even if tall-man was still part of it...

ECWHSWI is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 12:28 AM
  #417
Fish on The Sand
Untouchable
 
Fish on The Sand's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Nanaimo
Country: Canada
Posts: 51,350
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
there was more or less half the season played when Gorges got injured, and we were top at the time... to go from 1st to 7th in basically half a season, you got to be worst that 7th...


maybe the guy you mention in that 2nd bolded part is the top PK guy (not top 5 mind you, but #1 on the team) and that's why our PK regressed even if tall-man was still part of it...
you aren't making any sort of point. Gorges is also one of the top pkers in the league, and not having anybody to replace him surely hurt us. You make it sound like our pk should just keep on going when somebody as important as Gorges gets hurt. I hate to break it to you, but that's not how it works. You also have to keep in mind that the difference between first and 7th in penalty killing was less than 2%. Even a marginal drop in pk% would be enough to cause the decline. Your insinuation that Gill is negative to a teams pk (which you clearly made with your asinine Pittsburgh comment) is totally clueless.

Fish on The Sand is online now  
Old
06-23-2011, 01:42 AM
  #418
Analyzer
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Renfrew, ON.
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,795
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carey Price View Post
So I'm an idiot then, because I always thought Hamrlik was a good passer, had strong hockey sense at both ends...
Idiot, nope.

Maybe you're an optimist, but I don't see the point, or any positive in bringing Hamrlik back.

I mean the guy is 6'2, 210lbs, but he's 36. He's not tough in any sense. We have Gill and hopefully Gorges to block shots.

If he takes about 2 mill, or less he could be good for us. Like I said earlier, do you really want 3 of our dman to be 36 + Gill is terribly slow, but was brought back as a leader, a pker and mainly a guy who's size is enough to stop some players from beating the crap out of ***** team.

Spacek is paid almost 4 mill to be complete crap and in my mind a 7th d. He gets hurt all the time.

I mean our d of

Yemelin - Subban
Gill - Gorges
Spacek - Hamrlik
Weber - Diaz

Good depth, but overall it's ****ing terrible.

Analyzer is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 02:02 AM
  #419
DekeLikeYouMeanIt
RIP
 
DekeLikeYouMeanIt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 9,995
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analyzer View Post
Yemelin - Subban
Gill - Gorges
Spacek - Hamrlik
Weber - Diaz

Good depth, but overall it's ****ing terrible.
Bingo! Marky (very possible) or Subban go down and someone's gonna be playing outside of their comfort zone and looking bad.

DekeLikeYouMeanIt is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 04:42 AM
  #420
JGRB
#EllerThugLife
 
JGRB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
there was more or less half the season played when Gorges got injured, and we were top at the time... to go from 1st to 7th in basically half a season, you got to be worst that 7th...


maybe the guy you mention in that 2nd bolded part is the top PK guy (not top 5 mind you, but #1 on the team) and that's why our PK regressed even if tall-man was still part of it...
If you look at the numbers of goals scored on us while we we're shorthanded, I think Subban's ice-time/goal was in a similar territory to Gorges. Most of the goals we let in we're not from the first-pair of Gill-Subban but often from the second unit, or in the often case that one of Gill or Subban was in the box ( i remember a 5-on-3 where they we're both in the box)

I could be wrong, I haven't look at the stats in a long time, but just off memory I don't believe many goals we're scored with Subban-Gill killing penalties. It always seemed goals went in right after a line change to the other pairing.

JGRB is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 04:55 AM
  #421
Monctonscout
Monctonscout
 
Monctonscout's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 32,754
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by macavoy View Post
ummmm


actually trading Halak was the "safe road'. Price was always the thorough bread. But Halak is a wildcard that can potentially pay off dividends in the playoffs. Halak has proven he can go on a hotstreak when the pressure is on.

Price hasn't done that yet but still has that thoroughbred potential. Trading Halak was 100% the safe move.

PG would have been burnt at the stake if he traded Price. I bet there would have been an off season, in the middle of the summer riot if Price was traded. Yea everyone got aboard the Halak band wagon and love in last summer but if Price was traded, the city would have rioted.

We would have made the Vancouver riot 2 weeks ago look like childs play.
You have a pretty short memory...the majority of Hab fans criticized the move at the time...hindsight now fixes that, but it was far from a safe move. If he keeps Halak everybody says it's the logical move and Halak won the #1 job. He went against fans and the media, I remember because everybody was sjhocked that halak was the one dealt.

Monctonscout is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 05:00 AM
  #422
jlgib21*
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 620
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melvin Udall View Post
No, the facts don't bear that out:

4 months after his return to Anaheim,
No Playoffs 98
1 round 99
No Playoffs 00
No Playoffs 01
No Playoffs 02

The Ducks did not win the Cup till 2007 - Gauthier was fired from the Ducks after the 2002 season and Bryan Murray, then Al Coates managed the team till Burke took over in 2005.

Burke added some very key pieces to the Anaheim team that won the Cup including Pronger, Gezlaf and Perry just to name a few.

If Gauthier had indeed done such a great job of team building in Anaheim it would make little sense to fire him! But his record in Anaheim would indicate no such success!

As GM of the Ottawa senators:

No Playoffs in 95
No Playoffs in 96
Lose 1st round in 1997

From '97 TO 2006 inclusive (10 years) Sens won 5 playoff rounds total - by the time they got to the Cup Final in 2007 - Gauthier had been gone for 9 years!

The truth is - most of the Sens team that reached the Cup Finals in 2007 was put together by John Muckler.....not Pierre Gauthier!

His record in Ottowa seems not significantly better (although he did not 'officailly' get fired!) than his record in Anaheim....where he did get fired!




I don't understand why people defend this GM .He totally sucks.

jlgib21* is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 05:04 AM
  #423
Talks to Goalposts
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,689
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JGRB View Post
If you look at the numbers of goals scored on us while we we're shorthanded, I think Subban's ice-time/goal was in a similar territory to Gorges. Most of the goals we let in we're not from the first-pair of Gill-Subban but often from the second unit, or in the often case that one of Gill or Subban was in the box ( i remember a 5-on-3 where they we're both in the box)

I could be wrong, I haven't look at the stats in a long time, but just off memory I don't believe many goals we're scored with Subban-Gill killing penalties. It always seemed goals went in right after a line change to the other pairing.
I remember looking that up a while ago. The first unit penalty kill was more effective than the second in terms of goals against. Gill-Subban had a stretch mid-season of hardly letting anything by them.


Looking at the numbers for 5 on 4 PK, here are the goals against per 60 minutes for the regular penalty killers. To compare against goaltending, I've included the save percentage behind them as well

Subban - 3.20, .939
Gionta - 3.47, .922
Gill - 3.57, .927
Gomez - 3.90, .911
Halpern - 4.35, .910
Plekanec - 4.53, .913
Gorges - 4.67, .895
Moen - 4.91, .911
Pyatt - 5.00, .898
Spacek - 6.02, .877
Hamrlik - 7.94, .850

So in goals against Subban and Gill were the best, but how much of that was good fortune with goaltending has been left as an exercise for the reader.

Talks to Goalposts is online now  
Old
06-23-2011, 05:05 AM
  #424
jlgib21*
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 620
vCash: 500
OK PG,re-sign Hamr,dump Wiz,then after that we can re-up Pyatt and Halpern and send White down.Continue the total emasculation and pansification of the ONCE PROUD franchise.He's building this team in his image.Total wimps.And these idiotic posters can come on and once again blast the league and refs for not protecting us from those mean Bruins,Flyers,Leafs and any other teams that want to slap and bully us around.And then the would've,could'ves can start when our old,small and/or soft players go down with injuries. Maybe when,not if PK gets injured by a Chara-type cheapshot,these fools will come to their senses. I highly doubt it.

jlgib21* is offline  
Old
06-23-2011, 05:21 AM
  #425
ECWHSWI
Spartan mic'
 
ECWHSWI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,057
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
you aren't making any sort of point. Gorges is also one of the top pkers in the league, and not having anybody to replace him surely hurt us. You make it sound like our pk should just keep on going when somebody as important as Gorges gets hurt. I hate to break it to you, but that's not how it works. You also have to keep in mind that the difference between first and 7th in penalty killing was less than 2%. Even a marginal drop in pk% would be enough to cause the decline. Your insinuation that Gill is negative to a teams pk (which you clearly made with your asinine Pittsburgh comment) is totally clueless.
ok, so basically it went from
- Gill is great on the PK
- Gill is top 5 in the WHOLE league on PK
- Gorges is Gill partner, losing him hurt the PK
- Gorges is also a top PK player (what, top 10?)
- we have two of the top 5/10 PK d-men in the league...


WRONG, all it shows is that Gill may not be as great as some of you make him out to be... you know, something along the line of : Leadership (not a world class or super or whatever leader, a good leader period) 3rd pairing guy, solid on the PK (not elite, not top 5 in the league and whatnot, solid PKer that's it)...

if you think it's a - to be a 3rd pairing D, be part of the leadership group while being a solid PKer, that's your problem not mine... if there's anyone clueless around here, look at those who think he's more than that.

ECWHSWI is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:26 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.