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NHL hints at HUGE realignment in 2012-2013 [With Link]

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Old
07-03-2011, 02:15 PM
  #76
Hollywood3
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IMO the league will try to keep things as similar as possible. Just because the whole league seems to new to us doesn't mean it's that way to anybody else.

In the BoH thread about this, I posted about the NHL needing formulations for Phoenix staying put and for moving to Quebec.

IMO the 4 division setup causes fewer switches when new teams are added or move and will therefore likely be chosen.

WITH PHOENIX
Code:
Smythe        Norris      Adams       Patrick
Vancouver     Winnipeg    Montreal    Philadelphia
Edmonton      Minnesota   Boston      New Jersey
Calgary       St. Louis   Buffalo     Washington 
Los Angeles   Chicago     Toronto     NY Rangers
Anaheim       Dallas      Ottawa      NY Islanders
San Jose      Detroit     Carolina    Pittsburgh
Colorado      Columbus    Nashville   Tampa Bay
Phoenix                               Florida
WITH QUEBEC
Code:
Smythe        Norris      Adams       Patrick
Vancouver     Winnipeg    Montreal    Philadelphia
Edmonton      Minnesota   Boston      New Jersey
Calgary       St. Louis   Buffalo     Washington 
Los Angeles   Chicago     Toronto     NY Rangers
Anaheim       Dallas      Ottawa      NY Islanders
San Jose      Detroit     Carolina    Pittsburgh
Colorado      Columbus    Quebec      Tampa Bay
              Nashville               Florida
The decisions are:

- If Phoenix stays put, which team moves from west to east? I happened to pick Nashville, but there are equally good reasons to move Columbus or Detroit. (I highlighted them in green.)

- Which of the current 3 eastern divisions gets split? I happened to choose the southeast because their markets are the most vulnerable. And moving Carolina to their ancestral homeland in the Adams makes some sense. But an equally strong case can be made for splitting the current Atlantic and shifting Pittsburgh to the Northeast along with the relocated teams. (I highlighted them in red.)

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07-03-2011, 05:42 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood3 View Post
IMO the league will try to keep things as similar as possible. Just because the whole league seems to new to us doesn't mean it's that way to anybody else.

In the BoH thread about this, I posted about the NHL needing formulations for Phoenix staying put and for moving to Quebec.

IMO the 4 division setup causes fewer switches when new teams are added or move and will therefore likely be chosen.

WITH PHOENIX
Code:
Smythe        Norris      Adams       Patrick
Vancouver     Winnipeg    Montreal    Philadelphia
Edmonton      Minnesota   Boston      New Jersey
Calgary       St. Louis   Buffalo     Washington 
Los Angeles   Chicago     Toronto     NY Rangers
Anaheim       Dallas      Ottawa      NY Islanders
San Jose      Detroit     Carolina    Pittsburgh
Colorado      Columbus    Nashville   Tampa Bay
Phoenix                               Florida
WITH QUEBEC
Code:
Smythe        Norris      Adams       Patrick
Vancouver     Winnipeg    Montreal    Philadelphia
Edmonton      Minnesota   Boston      New Jersey
Calgary       St. Louis   Buffalo     Washington 
Los Angeles   Chicago     Toronto     NY Rangers
Anaheim       Dallas      Ottawa      NY Islanders
San Jose      Detroit     Carolina    Pittsburgh
Colorado      Columbus    Quebec      Tampa Bay
              Nashville               Florida
The decisions are:

- If Phoenix stays put, which team moves from west to east? I happened to pick Nashville, but there are equally good reasons to move Columbus or Detroit. (I highlighted them in green.)

- Which of the current 3 eastern divisions gets split? I happened to choose the southeast because their markets are the most vulnerable. And moving Carolina to their ancestral homeland in the Adams makes some sense. But an equally strong case can be made for splitting the current Atlantic and shifting Pittsburgh to the Northeast along with the relocated teams. (I highlighted them in red.)
I think that this would be plausible. It seems more and more likely that Winnipeg will end up in a division with Minnesota, St. Louis, Chicago than with more natural rivals in Edmonton and Calgary, but being the new kids on the block I do not think the NHL will care. Personally I do not care as I think Minnesota will be a great rival and that Winnipeg could fit nicely in there (especially short-term with the "Winnipeg" team in Chicago right now).

Unfortunatly I agree with you that neither Detroit nor Columbus will get their wish to move East. Nashville makes more sense, IMO, although Columbus would be make sense as well. I think Detroit remains west for some time.

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07-03-2011, 06:23 PM
  #78
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that map probably makes the most sense out of any of them that I've seen so far....which is also probably why it will never happen...
The only thing some people really don't like about it is Vancouver in the pacific split up from the flames/oilers. But splitting them up is the only way to have the far wrst divisions operate over 1-2 time zones, rather than 2-3, like the paciffic and Northwest work on now. Plus that green division will be able to compete on a high level
In just a few seasons.

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07-04-2011, 08:53 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
The only thing some people really don't like about it is Vancouver in the pacific split up from the flames/oilers. But splitting them up is the only way to have the far wrst divisions operate over 1-2 time zones, rather than 2-3, like the paciffic and Northwest work on now. Plus that green division will be able to compete on a high level
In just a few seasons.
That is true about the Canucks splitting from the Alberta teams but there are lots of Canucks fans that would like to change divisions because of the timezone issue. If the 6 divisions remain, the only difference is that Canucks fans would see the Alberta teams twice at home instead of 3 times.

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07-06-2011, 01:12 AM
  #80
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That is true about the Canucks splitting from the Alberta teams but there are lots of Canucks fans that would like to change divisions because of the timezone issue. If the 6 divisions remain, the only difference is that Canucks fans would see the Alberta teams twice at home instead of 3 times.
yeah, and to some, that coupled with no longer being in the same division as the Alberta teams, would be the end of all sacred. f'ing bull crap if you ask me.

Canucks fans just want to stay in the NorthWest, because they know they are still the best team.

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07-06-2011, 01:28 AM
  #81
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yeah, and to some, that coupled with no longer being in the same division as the Alberta teams, would be the end of all sacred. f'ing bull crap if you ask me.

Canucks fans just want to stay in the NorthWest, because they know they are still the best team.
That, and the Pacific division is currently the most competitive division in all of hockey. Going into any season, you could bet on any one of them getting home ice advantage and you’d have a very good chance on collecting some winnings. If you only count their record against non-Pacific division teams, and then factor it into an 82 game schedule, all five would have made the playoffs in the past two years, and I think 4 the year before that. I read an article about it not too long ago, but can't remember where.


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07-06-2011, 01:43 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
yeah, and to some, that coupled with no longer being in the same division as the Alberta teams, would be the end of all sacred. f'ing bull crap if you ask me.

Canucks fans just want to stay in the NorthWest, because they know they are still the best team.
That's not entirely true. I wanna stay in the northwest because we have had longtime rivalry's with Calgary. (even if it's died down and chicago is our biggest rival now).

Honestly, It would be great if the peg were in the same division as vancouver, we could learn to hate eachother again like the old days.

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07-06-2011, 09:51 PM
  #83
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That's not entirely true. I wanna stay in the northwest because we have had longtime rivalry's with Calgary. (even if it's died down and chicago is our biggest rival now).

Honestly, It would be great if the peg were in the same division as vancouver, we could learn to hate eachother again like the old days.


no, it would't. because we're talking about 3 times zones (Pacific, Mountain, and Central)


don't worry, even if Winnipeg is in another division, many Jets fans will rabidly hate the Canucks, because they are easily the most hatable team in the league / we'll play the Canucks in the playoffs.

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07-06-2011, 11:28 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
yeah, and to some, that coupled with no longer being in the same division as the Alberta teams, would be the end of all sacred. f'ing bull crap if you ask me.

Canucks fans just want to stay in the NorthWest, because they know they are still the best team.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucbourdon View Post
That's not entirely true. I wanna stay in the northwest because we have had longtime rivalry's with Calgary. (even if it's died down and chicago is our biggest rival now).

Honestly, It would be great if the peg were in the same division as vancouver, we could learn to hate each other again like the old days.
I agree that the Flames and Canucks are strong rivals. The Canucks and Oilers rivalry is weak. From what I have heard with the Jets and Canucks back in the day, it was not that big. My choice would be for the Canucks to move to the Pacific division as long as teams in the same conference continue to play each other 4 times a season.

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07-06-2011, 11:32 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Seanconn View Post
no, it would't. because we're talking about 3 times zones (Pacific, Mountain, and Central)


don't worry, even if Winnipeg is in another division, many Jets fans will rabidly hate the Canucks, because they are easily the most hatable team in the league / we'll play the Canucks in the playoffs.
The 3 time zones is the reason the Canucks may want a move to the Pacific. Yes, the Jets-Canucks rivalry can become a great rivalry even if they are not in the same division.

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07-06-2011, 11:33 PM
  #86
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The Jets and Canucks rivalry wasn't even that big until about a 3 year span in the early 90's, thats when Bure and Selanne took off. Then the NHL wrecked the Smythe Division and moved Winnipeg to the Central with Detroit, Chicago and St.Louis.

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07-10-2011, 04:08 PM
  #87
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The Jets and Canucks rivalry wasn't even that big until about a 3 year span in the early 90's, thats when Bure and Selanne took off. Then the NHL wrecked the Smythe Division and moved Winnipeg to the Central with Detroit, Chicago and St.Louis.
Well, it sounds like Winnipeg and Minny will be joining Chicago, St. Louis and possibly Detroit, among others, in a new division the following season, as discussed in this link I found on the Wild website:

http://www.kfan.com/cc-common/podcas...11%2520HR3.mp3

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07-10-2011, 04:16 PM
  #88
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Advance to 21:25 for the discussion with Craig Leipold, owner of the Wild.

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07-10-2011, 05:42 PM
  #89
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Yeah, based on what Leopold said, the Pacific / Smythe / Whatever division will be Anaheim, Calgary, Colorado, Edmonton, Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Jose, and Vancouver. The Central / Norris / Whatever division will be Chicago, Columbus or Detroit, Dallas, Minnesota, Nashville, St. Louis, and Winnipeg. The East is more of a question because there is no natural geographic break to split it into a 7 and 8 team division. You’re probably separating New Jersey from New York, Philadelphia from Pittsburgh, or New Jersey from Philadelphia.

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07-11-2011, 04:17 AM
  #90
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Originally Posted by EpochLink View Post
The Jets and Canucks rivalry wasn't even that big until about a 3 year span in the early 90's, thats when Bure and Selanne took off. Then the NHL wrecked the Smythe Division and moved Winnipeg to the Central with Detroit, Chicago and St.Louis.
I must be old, but I remember distinctly that the Winnipeg Free Press was constantly ranting about how we got the bum deal being in the Smythe, with all our travel. And L.A. was a big deal with Gretzky, so the NHL wanted to ease their travel burdens hence the expansion to San Jose, and expansion to Anaheim. I personally would rather see Jonny Toews 3 times a year than any of Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver, and I want Mark Chipman to make money, the new divisional alignment will reduce travel expenses, and make more games accessible to viewers (not everyone can stay up the extra two hours to watch Pacific coast games).

I like the fact that each team will play home and away now, it gives fans the opportunity to see their favourite players, and levels the competitive travel balance between East and West. The only thing to not is that while Phoenix is dead in the desert, there are other teams in trouble...1) Long Island votes on a new arena project for August 1st, and should it fail, the team is gone in 3 years 2) Florida is very similar to Phoenix in regards to its suburban rink, absolutely no fan interest, especially in contrast to the other pro sports of the city, and questionable ownership. Can hockey survive in Miami, seriously? The team actively pursues tourists to fill its arena, is that a long term survival strategy, can this franchise generate any advertising revenue? 3) Columbus lost $25 million, and from the sounds of it, are going to lose out in realignment to Detroit, and the clout of Milke Ilitch.

If the NHL somehow moves Phoenix to Quebec, both Detroit and Columbus would forego realignment, I imagine just about every Eastern team would vote for having Detroit instead of Quebec in their conference, just for revenues sake, hard to say how many Western Confernece teams would allow Detroit to realign (Ilitch probably could convince quite a few, especially the Pacific division teams, who will have nothing to lose if the subsequent schedule provisions 5/6 divisional games and 2 games against all other divisions. With all the teams that are in trouble, I think Quebec might become a safety valve for a potential Eastern Conference market failure, rather than a home for the desert dogs. I am expecting the NHL to actively pursue the Seattle market this season, if they can find an owner and convince the city to build a new arena, I could foresee the Coyotes being moved to Seattle to play out of the Key Arena for a couple of season, like the Sens did when they began in the Ottawa Civic Centre. Gary Bettman saves a little face too by keeping a team in the U.S. in an attractive TV market, with a big NBC affiliiate. Maybe the beginning of some Seattle-San Jose games? Otherwise they go the way of the Cleveland Barons.

Divisions:

WEST

Pacific
Vancouver
Calgary
Edmonton
Seattle
San Jose
L. A.
Anaheim

Central
Colorado (closer to St. Louis and Dallas as anywhere and with a better chance of making the playoffs in this division)
St. Louis
Dallas
Nashville
Winnipeg
Minnesota
Chicago
Columbus

EAST

Northeast
Detroit
Buffalo
Toronto
Ottawa
Montreal
Boston
New York Rangers
New York Isles

Atlantic
New Jersey
Philly
Pittsburgh
Washington
Carolina
Tampa
Florida

The Northeast division would have 5 of the 6 Original Six, which is TV heaven for TSN and NBC. Also Detroit in the Northeast gives another outlet to the any team but Leafs fans of Southern Ontario.

The only team that really gets screwed in this alignment is Columbus, however there are simply not enough viable Western markets to move them East. I think they would be happy in a way to shed Detroit, it would take away their competitive disadvantage, and as most of the Central division aside from Chicago is made of small and medium markets they could foreseeably become a regular playoff team, which would offset some of the losses, and hopefully get the hockey fans in Ohio behind their team.
.

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07-11-2011, 05:49 AM
  #91
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If the NHL somehow moves Phoenix to Quebec, both Detroit and Columbus would forego realignment, I imagine just about every Eastern team would vote for having Detroit instead of Quebec in their conference
I'd make 2 changes to your layout...

1) Have Colorado in the Pacific. They're in the same timezone as Calgary+Edmonton. It's one hour to Pacific or one hour to Central, so that's a wash. If Phoenix is saved or relocated to Houston or KC (Unlike Seattle, both Houston and KC have an arena now) the division stays at 8. If the Coyotes move to QC, or fold outright, the rest of the Pacific stays. One team would need to move to the Central division if Phoenix heads to QC/Hartford/Hamilton.

2) I'd also swap Boston and NJ. No way should NJ be separated from their cross-river-rivals in New York. Boston is a natural Atlantic team.

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07-11-2011, 10:25 AM
  #92
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There's no way the present Atlantic Division gets split up under any circumstances. Splitting the East up is tough, but the Atlantic won't get messed with. I'd bet money on that.

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07-11-2011, 11:54 AM
  #93
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I'd make 2 changes to your layout...

2) I'd also swap Boston and NJ. No way should NJ be separated from their cross-river-rivals in New York. Boston is a natural Atlantic team.
Boston feels as strongly about being in the same division as Buffalo, Toronto, and especially Montreal as New Jersey feels about being with the Rangers.

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07-11-2011, 11:59 AM
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I must be old, but I remember distinctly that the Winnipeg Free Press was constantly ranting about how we got the bum deal being in the Smythe, with all our travel. And L.A. was a big deal with Gretzky, so the NHL wanted to ease their travel burdens hence the expansion to San Jose, and expansion to Anaheim. I personally would rather see Jonny Toews 3 times a year than any of Calgary, Edmonton, and Vancouver, and I want Mark Chipman to make money, the new divisional alignment will reduce travel expenses, and make more games accessible to viewers (not everyone can stay up the extra two hours to watch Pacific coast games).

snip
My thoughts exactly.

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07-11-2011, 12:23 PM
  #95
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There's no way the present Atlantic Division gets split up under any circumstances. Splitting the East up is tough, but the Atlantic won't get messed with. I'd bet money on that.
Geographically speaking, there's no reason why Pittsburgh should be in the Atlantic. It's closer to Columbus than it is to Philly.

I'm a proponent of adding Pittsburgh and Detroit to the current East Division, then just merging the rest of the Atlantic with the Southeast (obviously minus Winnipeg).

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07-11-2011, 12:29 PM
  #96
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I'd make 2 changes to your layout...

1) Have Colorado in the Pacific. They're in the same timezone as Calgary+Edmonton. It's one hour to Pacific or one hour to Central, so that's a wash. If Phoenix is saved or relocated to Houston or KC (Unlike Seattle, both Houston and KC have an arena now) the division stays at 8. If the Coyotes move to QC, or fold outright, the rest of the Pacific stays. One team would need to move to the Central division if Phoenix heads to QC/Hartford/Hamilton.

2) I'd also swap Boston and NJ. No way should NJ be separated from their cross-river-rivals in New York. Boston is a natural Atlantic team.
On the 1st point, if you look at where Denver is on a map, they really are not near any of the other teams in the Pacific. The other point I was trying to make is that Colorado does not have the revenue base to compete with powerhouses such as San Jose and Vancouver, and L.A, Calgary, and Edmonton can also outspend them. In the Pacific the Avs would run the risk of missing the playoffs frequently, and in a non-hockey market which competes against the NBA that could mean peril. The Central has Chicago as powerhouse, St. Louis and Minnesota are medium sized markets (although ownership in St. Louis does not spend), and the rest are small markets. I could see this division being one of more flux, and thus a better opportunity for the Avs ownership to make some (playoff) revenue. Colorado does not really have a natural rival, so they could go into any division. If Phoenix moves East or folds Colorado will surely be in the Pacific. As for Houston and Kansas City, they have arenas, but no owners, and both have the risk of parallelling the Coyotes dismal attendance, in my opinion.

Concerning the East, there is no easy way to split up the divisons. I don't know if the Atlantic is sacred, my big concern, much like Colorado, is if you have a division of the Rangers, Flyers, Pens, and Caps, Tampa run by Yzerman might compete with them but the other teams will be perennial playoff bystanders, which makes it almost impossible for the markets of Carolina and Florida to survive, and then realignment is wholly unnecessary. I also look at the main TV broadcasters. By moving New York and the Isles into the Northeast you are adding two more MSG broadcast teams in with another (Buffalo), one that is broadcast by NESN (Boston), and the rest are TSN, CBC property. Whereas Philly and Washington are VS favourites, Pittsburgh too, and the southern teams would get more exposure than their FSN broadcasts enable them.

A powerhouse Northeast division would be good thing in terms of exposure, and all of its teams except the Isles can handle missing the playoffs for a couple of years consecutively.

No way is Boston going to be swapped to keep the New York-New Jersey rivalry alive, sorry but Boston-Montreal is the best rivalry in hockey. Maybe the best solution is to move Florida to Quebec. Then the two remaining south teams can be integrated with the Patrick division. Or instead of moving Detroit into the East, you move Columbus into the Atlantic, and move all the 3 New York teams into the Northeast. Right now it is all speculation, though, it will certainly make for an interesting discussion.


Last edited by Hank Chinaski: 07-11-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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07-11-2011, 02:25 PM
  #97
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This whole huge realignment thing could ruin A LOT of rivalries.

Although I guess new ones can always pop up in time.

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07-11-2011, 08:44 PM
  #98
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Geographically speaking, there's no reason why Pittsburgh should be in the Atlantic. It's closer to Columbus than it is to Philly.

I'm a proponent of adding Pittsburgh and Detroit to the current East Division, then just merging the rest of the Atlantic with the Southeast (obviously minus Winnipeg).
The Atlantic isn't about geography for Philly and Pittsburgh. There is no way in H E double hockey sticks that those two are in different divisions. That rivalry is one of the best in hockey.

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07-11-2011, 10:00 PM
  #99
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The Atlantic isn't about geography for Philly and Pittsburgh. There is no way in H E double hockey sticks that those two are in different divisions. That rivalry is one of the best in hockey.
I tend to agree, but that pretty much forces one of the Carolina, Tampa Bay, Washington or Florida into the Northeast. Not a chance they break up Philly, New Jersey and the two NY teams.

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07-11-2011, 10:33 PM
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I tend to agree, but that pretty much forces one of the Carolina, Tampa Bay, Washington or Florida into the Northeast. Not a chance they break up Philly, New Jersey and the two NY teams.
The Eastern Standard Time zone is home to sixteen clubs, Central is home to six, Mountain and Pacific are home to four each. If there are going to be four divisions per conference, then one should comprise the Mountain and Pacific clubs. One EST club has to move to the CST division. The problem is that if one wants to keep New Jersey, NY Islanders, NY Rangers, Philadelphia Flyers, and Pittsburgh Penguins in one division, they can only have three more clubs. There are four to the south, and six to the north. In a four division NHL, the old Atlantic division has to be broken into two. At least one of them has to be in a different division. And if a team from the West ever moves to Quebec, it just makes it even harder.

Eastern Standard Time (16 clubs)

Boston Bruins
Buffalo Sabres
Carolina Hurricanes
Columbus Blue Jackets
Detroit Red Wings
Florida Panthers
Montreal Canadiens
New Jersey Devils
New York Islanders
New York Rangers
Ottawa Senators
Philadelphia Flyers
Pittsburgh Penguins
Tampa Bay Lightning
Toronto Maple Leafs
Washington Capitals

Central Standard Time (6 clubs)

Chicago Blackhawks
Dallas Stars
Minnesota Wild
Nashville Predators
St. Louis Blues
Winnipeg Jets

Mountain Standard Time (4 clubs)

Calgary Flames
Colorado Avalanche
Edmonton Oilers
Phoenix Coyotes

Pacific Standard Time (4 clubs)

Anaheim Ducks
Los Angeles Kings
San Jose Sharks
Vancouver Canucks

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