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Messier: Pros and Cons

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Old
07-22-2004, 07:30 PM
  #1
neversummer
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Messier: Pros and Cons

Can we discuss the pros and cons of having Messier on next seasons roster. My heart tells me he can't return but as I think about it you can make a solid case for keeping him too.
I'll start.

Pro - He can still produce. Finished second on the team in points, goals and assists.

Con - He's 43. Leetch is gone, we're trying to get young and tenacious so Mess doesn't fit in. He plays old and crafty.

I'm on the fence.

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07-22-2004, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neversummer
Can we discuss the pros and cons of having Messier on next seasons roster. My heart tells me he can't return but as I think about it you can make a solid case for keeping him too.
I'll start.

Pro - He can still produce. Finished second on the team in points, goals and assists.

Con - He's 43. Leetch is gone, we're trying to get young and tenacious so Mess doesn't fit in. He plays old and crafty.

I'm on the fence.


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07-22-2004, 07:39 PM
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What the hell, I'm on a break....

Pros - Um...he won a Cup in 94

Cons - He's old, he runs the organization, 94 was a LONG time ago, did I mention he's old?

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07-22-2004, 07:51 PM
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there are no pros, only cons...

love the guy for what he did in 94, but he will do nothing but hold the team back from moving forward...a big part of rebuilding isn't simply getting younger players but changing the culture and identity of the team, something that can't happen if messier is still there. messier's presence is simply too dominate to allow anyone to take control

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07-22-2004, 08:00 PM
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Or maybe you actually need someone who can take control and not just talking about it in the papers.......

"Um did I mention he's old". Wow that was thought out.

Problem is that this team doesn't have enough young talent to stack this roster, regardless of anyone's greatest fantasies and highest hopes.

You talk to any of those young guys who played with Messier last year and you can SEE what they got out of it. Heck just listen to Garth Murray sounding like a young Adam Graves when he talks about his experiences rooming with Messier.

Messier doesn't control this organization and any comment with that remark is from someone who has never even sniffed within a mile of what goes on within the offices.

Messier will have a bigger impact with those kids playing one season with them then they'd have in 4 just running around by themselves.

Whose gonna lead them, Holik? There probably wasn't a more disliked player in the lockerroom the past 2 years. When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums.

There was a reason you heard guys like Murray and Lundmark mention Messier and not Holik. It had nothing to do with Messier controlling the lockeroom, it had everything to do with Messier doing the one thing no on these boards has given him an ounce of credit for doing. Checking in on these kids personally to see how they were adapting. That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death.

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07-22-2004, 08:09 PM
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How long do the Rangers and their fans have to pay homage to Mark Messier?

Do I thank him for what he did? YES
Do I think he is / was a great player? YES
Do I think he is a legend in hockey? Of course

But when is enough enough? As long as Mark Messier is in a Ranger Jersey the Rangers will NEVER move on. He skated around MSG last year, tears in his eyes and waved goodbye. WHICH is exactly what he should have done. Bring him back for a Mark Messier day, hang his jersey. I'll be right there cheering (well I would if I can get back) but it's OVER. It's time for someone ELSE to step up and be Captain.

And you're right, I don't have a sniff of the offices of the Rangers. But if you think Mark doesn't get what Mark wants, you haven't had a sniff either.

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07-22-2004, 08:11 PM
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Frankly, if Messier can play and wants to, why not? So long as his minutes are kept manageable. I don't really care about not playing a young future 4th line centre if Messier plays and helps inspire our young future 1st and 2nd line players.

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07-22-2004, 08:14 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
You talk to any of those young guys who played with Messier last year and you can SEE what they got out of it. Heck just listen to Garth Murray sounding like a young Adam Graves when he talks about his experiences rooming with Messier.

Messier will have a bigger impact with those kids playing one season with them then they'd have in 4 just running around by themselves.

Whose gonna lead them, Holik? There probably wasn't a more disliked player in the lockerroom the past 2 years. When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums.

There was a reason you heard guys like Murray and Lundmark mention Messier and not Holik. It had nothing to do with Messier controlling the lockeroom, it had everything to do with Messier doing the one thing no on these boards has given him an ounce of credit for doing. Checking in on these kids personally to see how they were adapting. That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death.
well to your first comment , i think murray rooming with mess was good from the get go the kid murray has leadershiip written all over him, and who else better to learn it from then mess him self. and a young adam graves sounds like one lets hope he turns out to play like, one which could be very likely might not have that 52 goal season but same attributes and more toughness which u have to llove.

to the second comment - i have to somewhat disagree with u, yes he can have an impact on certain players ( certain players ) but, i think a majority of the team even alot of the youth around him is nervous, they feel no room to make mistakes. because of the in much a sense as some one stated his presence is much to strong and would be better off with the couple vets we have maybe aanother one or two thats all.

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07-22-2004, 08:15 PM
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Con-He sets a bad example by skipping practices because his old body can't take it anymore.

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07-22-2004, 08:22 PM
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But when is enough enough? As long as Mark Messier is in a Ranger Jersey the Rangers will NEVER move on.
Take one look at this roster my friend, they already HAVE. The team has 17 players on their roster and most of em are not exactly stars. The two that they have are ONLY becuase they couldn't trade em with those salaries.


Quote:
He skated around MSG last year, tears in his eyes and waved goodbye. WHICH is exactly what he should have done. Bring him back for a Mark Messier day, hang his jersey. I'll be right there cheering (well I would if I can get back) but it's OVER. It's time for someone ELSE to step up and be Captain.
LOL like who? Holik? Jagr? Who exactly do you see stepping up and being captain of this team? Being captain of a NY isn't exactly the easiest job in the world if for nothing else than the media. Holik proved that more than anyone the past two years.

That's the biggest problem I have, there is NO ONE who is gonna step up and do that. That is a big reason why these arguments dont even make sense. There isn't a budding team leader on this team other than possibly Garth Murray who Messier took under his wing while guys like Holik pouted, pissed and moaned about everything.

Quote:
And you're right, I don't have a sniff of the offices of the Rangers. But if you think Mark doesn't get what Mark wants, you haven't had a sniff either.
Actually on this one I don't think, I happen to know. When I interned there for several years at various points, i got a taste of it and in my professional life i've had almost too much of a taste of it.

Look no further than the Leetch trade, the Jagr trade and many other moves the past several years for proof that Messier doesn't make the trades. Sather for all his stupidity does.

I find it ironic that when Carter is consulted about bringing Simon in, no one says anything. When Nedved is asked about Hlvac, no one says anything. When Simon and Nedved are consulted about Jagr, there isn't a peep. But somehow at the end of the day it is Messier who runs this team.

Messier gave everyone freedom to speak as captain. If he didn't do you really think Holik would have been saying the stupid crap he did? The problem was that guys like Lindros and company have NEVER been leaders. Holik was never captain material either which is why he never filled in for Stevens. The problem wasn't that
Messier was hglding any leadership back, the problem was look at the people we were expecting it from.

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07-22-2004, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by little a from da bx
to the second comment - i have to somewhat disagree with u, yes he can have an impact on certain players ( certain players ) but, i think a majority of the team even alot of the youth around him is nervous, they feel no room to make mistakes. because of the in much a sense as some one stated his presence is much to strong and would be better off with the couple vets we have maybe aanother one or two thats all.
But that's EXACTLY my point, he ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE AN IMPACT PLAYER. Thats what i was saying, that role is for OTHER people who failed at it to be perfectly blunt.

His presence makes the kids nervous? Than dear God they aren't gonna survive two seconds in New York City.

Messier went to each kid after a mistake and gave them advice. The difference was that guys like Murray and Ortmeyer listened and played with passion. Guys like Lundmark sleepwalked out there, even when Messier wasn't even dressed to play.

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07-22-2004, 08:26 PM
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I think that alot of the youngsters still revere him

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
Or maybe you actually need someone who can take control and not just talking about it in the papers.......

"Um did I mention he's old". Wow that was thought out.

Problem is that this team doesn't have enough young talent to stack this roster, regardless of anyone's greatest fantasies and highest hopes.

You talk to any of those young guys who played with Messier last year and you can SEE what they got out of it. Heck just listen to Garth Murray sounding like a young Adam Graves when he talks about his experiences rooming with Messier.

Messier doesn't control this organization and any comment with that remark is from someone who has never even sniffed within a mile of what goes on within the offices.

Messier will have a bigger impact with those kids playing one season with them then they'd have in 4 just running around by themselves.

Whose gonna lead them, Holik? There probably wasn't a more disliked player in the lockerroom the past 2 years. When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums.

There was a reason you heard guys like Murray and Lundmark mention Messier and not Holik. It had nothing to do with Messier controlling the lockeroom, it had everything to do with Messier doing the one thing no on these boards has given him an ounce of credit for doing. Checking in on these kids personally to see how they were adapting. That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death.

and when they speak about players they have been playing/rooming with how can they not mention Messier.

Not sure where Murray is from, but Lundmark is from the Edmonton area and grew up with Messier being a household name. Yes he was already in NY wne Jamie was 10 years old, but he was still then and is still now an ICON in that part of the country.

It's time to move on and let them have their own identity. Let them grow without the shadow that is Messier.

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07-22-2004, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
You talk to any of those young guys who played with Messier last year and you can SEE what they got out of it. Heck just listen to Garth Murray sounding like a young Adam Graves when he talks about his experiences rooming with Messier.

Messier will have a bigger impact with those kids playing one season with them then they'd have in 4 just running around by themselves.

Whose gonna lead them, Holik? There probably wasn't a more disliked player in the lockerroom the past 2 years. When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums.

There was a reason you heard guys like Murray and Lundmark mention Messier and not Holik. It had nothing to do with Messier controlling the lockeroom, it had everything to do with Messier doing the one thing no on these boards has given him an ounce of credit for doing. Checking in on these kids personally to see how they were adapting. That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death.
EDGE

well to your first comment , i think murray rooming with mess was good from the get go the kid murray has leadershiip written all over him, and who else better to learn it from then mess him self. and a young adam graves sounds like one lets hope he turns out to play like, one which could be very likely might not have that 52 goal season but same attributes and more toughness which u have to llove.

to the second comment - i have to somewhat disagree with u, yes he can have an impact on certain players ( certain players ) but, i think a majority of the team even alot of the youth around him is nervous, they feel no room to make mistakes, simply because he is MESSIER, he bought the cup to ny, second alltime leading scorer, all in all he is just messier, and that can be intimidating, i think thats a fact and cant be argued with imo. as some one stated his presence is much to strong and would be better off with the couple vets we have maybe aanother one or two thats all. maybe would be a good coach or asistant for now thats all. he should not be involved on this team on ice playing nhl games anymore. would have rather have had graves in all honesty, i feel he is just as much a leader as messier.


to the 3rd comment -about holik, first of all his out spokeness is a great thing . say what u feel thats it . and u say running your mouth to the press..... " When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums......"
and you say he did nothing, why dont u take a look at his stas he did plenty and wasnt even used in the role he was suppose to be, he hjad an excellent season.. the one thing i would like to see is him drop the gloves once in a blue, to show a little more leadership.but thats not also his job he played tough many a game had a very good season point wise, and im not sure and im not gonna go check but was a overall plus minus which is good, he is not there to do everything . how much do u expect hiom to do to motivate someone, only so much... wasnt that the great leader off all time messiers job really<~~~~ thats not being sarcastic to u just a comment .....

and your 4th comment was good till that comment at the end " That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death"-0 very uncalle for, thats messiers personality and not jagrs and holiks, just because they didnt do that dont make them less of a leader, and there is no way in hell u should even compare what messier did to what holik and jagr didnt do... they are completley different types of players and people than messier- personality wise - messier is original an all around leader NATURALLY, him doing things like that just come to him, because thats messier in many ways, and not holik and jagr..

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07-22-2004, 08:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Bure9
Con-He sets a bad example by skipping practices because his old body can't take it anymore.
So does Yzerman, Francis and every other player over 38.

That is also emphasized by the fact that he had to take the shifts of other guys who were supposed two be twice the player mess was yet couldn't match his performance WITH that practice time.

Which again leads to the response, what does it say that Messier at 43, with a tired body and without the practice STILL outperformed Kovalev and Lindros?

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07-22-2004, 08:29 PM
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I'm late but I wanted to answer.

Edge, I'm not looking to start a war with you. We obviously don't agree on this one which if funny cause I agree with almost everything you post.... Well almost. I simply think the time has come for Mess to leave. Who will take over? I have no frigging clue but as long as he's around NO ONE will and that is the problem.

I'm also real tired of hearing about him taking Garth 'under his wing'. He roomed with him, ok fine. Holik roomed with Lundmark (Yeah I know, Lundmark sucked). Mess roomed with Garth because Leetch was traded. No other reason.

But enough, I'm coming off as the biggest Messier hater in the world and I'm not. I actually think he's one of the greatest to ever play the game.

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07-22-2004, 08:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pld459666
and when they speak about players they have been playing/rooming with how can they not mention Messier.

Not sure where Murray is from, but Lundmark is from the Edmonton area and grew up with Messier being a household name. Yes he was already in NY wne Jamie was 10 years old, but he was still then and is still now an ICON in that part of the country.

It's time to move on and let them have their own identity. Let them grow without the shadow that is Messier.
I dont think Messier casts a shadow over anyone anymore.

Lundmark's future is going to be determined by the effort he puts out on the ice {or the lack thereof}. Whether Messier is 1000 miles away or 10 feet away, Lundmark has to want it.

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07-22-2004, 08:29 PM
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Pros - NONE, END OF ****ING STORY!

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07-22-2004, 08:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Edge
But that's EXACTLY my point, he ISN'T SUPPOSED TO BE AN IMPACT PLAYER. Thats what i was saying, that role is for OTHER people who failed at it to be perfectly blunt.

His presence makes the kids nervous? Than dear God they aren't gonna survive two seconds in New York City.

Messier went to each kid after a mistake and gave them advice. The difference was that guys like Murray and Ortmeyer listened and played with passion. Guys like Lundmark sleepwalked out there, even when Messier wasn't even dressed to play.
WHOS ROLE HOLIKS , OK UNDERSTANDABLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A BIT MORE AGGRESSIVE IN THE LEADER SHIP AS I SAID BELOW BUT TO HOW MUCH CANT COMPARER MESSIERTO ANYONE , HE IS ONE OF A KIND, and one other thing dont take this wrong but lets put u out there or me or anyone else and play with messier u will be nervous no matter what. he needs to move on he is not as much a leadrer presnce in my mind , maybe more of an intimidation

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07-22-2004, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Ranger Blue
I'm late but I wanted to answer.

Edge, I'm not looking to start a war with you. We obviously don't agree on this one which if funny cause I agree with almost everything you post.... Well almost. I simply think the time has come for Mess to leave. Who will take over? I have no frigging clue but as long as he's around NO ONE will and that is the problem.

I'm also real tired of hearing about him taking Garth 'under his wing'. He roomed with him, ok fine. Holik roomed with Lundmark (Yeah I know, Lundmark sucked). Mess roomed with Garth because Leetch was traded. No other reason.

But enough, I'm coming off as the biggest Messier hater in the world and I'm not. I actually think he's one of the greatest to ever play the game.
captain and assistants should be swirched monthly similar to what minnesota does-

want to know who will be the future captain of this team and with the way it looks no doubt in my mind

garth murray

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07-22-2004, 08:38 PM
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to the 3rd comment -about holik, first of all his out spokeness is a great thing . say what u feel thats it . and u say running your mouth to the press..... " When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums......"
and you say he did nothing, why dont u take a look at his stas he did plenty and wasnt even used in the role he was suppose to be, he hjad an excellent season..

The comment wasn't about his season, it was about his leadership. If leadership was about points, that Jagr would be captain.

Lindros scored his points in Philly as well, but he wasn't a leader. Never has been. You can find people saying that from back when he was younger.

Holik didn't help one kid out, he didn't give advice to them. He didn't push them and he didn't reassure them.

Outspokeness can be great, but running your mouth is BS. When i get out of a meeting with my boss i don't go to the work newsletter and start ranting about things.

There is a line and THAT line is what seperates people who talk and people lead. Anyone over the age of two can talk, but not everyone is a leader.


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the one thing i would like to see is him drop the gloves once in a blue, to show a little more leadership.but thats not also his job he played tough many a game had a very good season point wise, and im not sure and im not gonna go check but was a overall plus minus which is good, he is not there to do everything . how much do u expect hiom to do to motivate someone, only so much... wasnt that the great leader off all time messiers job really<~~~~ thats not being sarcastic to u just a comment .....
But what exactly DID he do to motivate anyone? Aside from rooming with Lundmark, Holik has always never been a team leader. He's been a voice and he's been a presence, but even in NJ there were several guys who would get the "C" before him. There is a reason for that.
Quote:
and your 4th comment was good till that comment at the end " That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death"-0 very uncalle for, thats messiers personality and not jagrs and holiks, just because they didnt do that dont make them less of a leader, and there is no way in hell u should even compare what messier did to what holik and jagr didnt do...
Uncalled for? How the hell was that uncalled for? They have different personalities? Yes that is EXACTLY a key aspect of leadership. You wouldn't hire someone who was afraid of public speaking to be your spokesperson would you? So i supposed it's out line then to say they aren't cut out of that job?

Jagr has NEVER been a leader so i wouldn't even try to defend that one. As for Holik he wasn't exactly rallying the troops in NJ either, so how again exactly is all that out of line?

Quote:
they are completley different types of players and people than messier- personality wise - messier is original an all around leader NATURALLY, him doing things like that just come to him, because thats messier in many ways, and not holik and jagr..
But to be a leader you have to have those intangibles. Jagr certain doesn't have em {just talk to anyone in Pitts or Washington for proof of that} and Holik's way of going to papers isn't gonna rally anyone either. If that's their personality that's fine, but just because thats who they arent doesn't mean you look the other way and say "well here is the captaincy anyway".

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07-22-2004, 08:42 PM
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Edge, I'm not looking to start a war with you. We obviously don't agree on this one which if funny cause I agree with almost everything you post.... Well almost. I simply think the time has come for Mess to leave. Who will take over? I have no frigging clue but as long as he's around NO ONE will and that is the problem.
So one will take over when they actually STEP UP. But we haven't seen that from anyone yet.

Quote:
I'm also real tired of hearing about him taking Garth 'under his wing'. He roomed with him, ok fine. Holik roomed with Lundmark (Yeah I know, Lundmark sucked). Mess roomed with Garth because Leetch was traded. No other reason.
He also took Ortmeyer under his wing, who he didn't room with. He also {like always} took the younger guys out after the games to talk to em and see how they were going.

Messier has ALWAYS dont that, even to people who weren't his roommates. He did it to those kids {plus lampman and other} and he's done it since he's been here to names like Weight, Amonte, Langdon, Domi, etc.

Unless they slept in a barracks not all of those guys roomed with Messier, but he took each and every one of them under his win.

He didn't live with Jovanovski in Vancouver he did that too. So if you're real tired of the Murray comment than we can insert a different name to make it sound different....

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07-22-2004, 08:45 PM
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WHOS ROLE HOLIKS , OK UNDERSTANDABLE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A BIT MORE AGGRESSIVE IN THE LEADER SHIP AS I SAID BELOW BUT TO HOW MUCH CANT COMPARER MESSIERTO ANYONE , HE IS ONE OF A KIND,
He doesn't have to be Messier, he has to be a leader. Being a leader doesn't mean going to the press every time, that has nothing to do with Messier. You could take Messier out of the picture entirely and it doesn't change what he did.


Quote:
and one other thing dont take this wrong but lets put u out there or me or anyone else and play with messier u will be nervous no matter what. he needs to move on he is not as much a leadrer presnce in my mind , maybe more of an intimidation
Come on, gimme a break here. You don't think they'd be nervous with guys like Leetch, Jagr, etc.?

Not for anything the only young player who really stunk last year was Lundmark who was busy playing with Jagr. The guys actually did play with Messier, Murray and Ortmeyer were just fine. So i dont see where that argument is going.....

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07-22-2004, 08:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
So does Yzerman, Francis and every other player over 38.

That is also emphasized by the fact that he had to take the shifts of other guys who were supposed two be twice the player mess was yet couldn't match his performance WITH that practice time.

Which again leads to the response, what does it say that Messier at 43, with a tired body and without the practice STILL outperformed Kovalev and Lindros?
It says that this team seriously sucks. Also, Lindros is a big p*ssy on skates, and Kovalev is dumber than a tree.

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07-22-2004, 08:46 PM
  #24
Graveytrain
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Mess doesn't just skip practices, he skips entire shifts... Even i could circle the net like a crow while my linemates are left to fend for themselves, often having to cover twice as much ice as they should... leaving them prone to make more mistakes, which usually get them in hot water...

some people will just never learn...

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07-22-2004, 08:47 PM
  #25
Edge
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little a from da bx
captain and assistants should be swirched monthly similar to what minnesota does-

want to know who will be the future captain of this team and with the way it looks no doubt in my mind

garth murray

Who happened to thrive with Messier.

Leadership is more than a letter on a sweater, it is respect in the lockeroom and taking the bullets when your team doesn't do good. That's what seperates Holik and Jagr from captain material. They werent willing to. That's why Lindros wasn't a great leader in philly. When the bullets hit, he went into a ball.

Alternating a letter around on a sweater doesnt teach the kids to dodge bullets and talk to their teammates. It gives them a letter.

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