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Messier: Pros and Cons

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Old
07-22-2004, 08:50 PM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveytrain
Mess doesn't just skip practices, he skips entire shifts... Even i could circle the net like a crow while my linemates are left to fend for themselves, often having to cover twice as much ice as they should... leaving them prone to make more mistakes, which usually get them in hot water...

some people will just never learn...

As compared to missing the net by 5 feet, getting hurt every two weeks, etc.

If it was as easy as it sounds, then why exactly did Kovalev, Lindros and Nedved Have less goals despite being given the chance for more?

For pete's sake Messiers linemates last season were Mathew Friggin Barnaby and Chris Simon or Plenty of Jed Ortmeyer.

So tell me if Messier took shifts off, where were the core guys who were supposed to come and lead the team? Taking entire months off that's where.

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07-22-2004, 08:50 PM
  #27
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so edge, you are saying as a leader u should naturally talk to the youth take them under your wing etc... well i dont remember adam graves ever doing that any of that with the youth, or the ones we had when he was here atleast. so does that make him any less of a leader cause i think in his own ways he was just as good a leader as mess .. scarificed his body in front of the net for them garbage goals for the team ( when kowone else would poor guys back is shot )- leadership role, well to me atleast.. stuck up and fought for team mates another leader ship role.always a positive attitude, i mean the guy was near perfect in that sense though he didnt do what mnessier did, he led in his own way.

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07-22-2004, 08:53 PM
  #28
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For me, Mark Messier is an exception. Sure the NYR have turned the page, but this is Messier. I hope he plays until he can't play another shift.

Because when he does retire, it'll be for a long time. And guys like this don't pass through very often.

Whether he plays for the Rangers is another matter. I can certainly understand why fans would prefer to have fresh blood in the lineup.

Send him back to Edmonton. We'll give you Steven Rice. :lol

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07-22-2004, 08:57 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
He doesn't have to be Messier, he has to be a leader. Being a leader doesn't mean going to the press every time, that has nothing to do with Messier. You could take Messier out of the picture entirely and it doesn't change what he did.




Come on, gimme a break here. You don't think they'd be nervous with guys like Leetch, Jagr, etc.?

Not for anything the only young player who really stunk last year was Lundmark who was busy playing with Jagr. The guys actually did play with Messier, Murray and Ortmeyer were just fine. So i dont see where that argument is going.....
well to me its not an arguement its a discussion, that u felt b4 as u said know one can have an intelligent conversation, now that i am telling u that i disagree with on a majority of what u say this turns into an argument.. well for me no for u i guess so and could care less.. but no ortmeyer and murray are not expected to put up #s like lundmark is so ofcourse its less pressure on them guys especially with the type of players they are , total opposite from lundmark.... yeah they would be nervous with jagr and leetch.. but u dont seem to get my point, messiers presence is far more intimidating than any one elses. and thats no argument,.. the guy nees to retire and we should see out of our youth who will step up.... its time to move on messier and edge

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07-22-2004, 09:00 PM
  #30
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no not really, they were sitting on the bench while sather was giving messier everyone else minutes no one had time to prove what they could do, messier should not have been logging the time he was . it should have been given to lundmark though he didnt prove much but we are trying to make him grow. or holik or anyone else basically.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge

So tell me if Messier took shifts off, where were the core guys who were supposed to come and lead the team? Taking entire months off that's where.

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07-22-2004, 09:03 PM
  #31
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so edge, you are saying as a leader u should naturally talk to the youth take them under your wing etc...
Are you serious man? Adam Graves did that with EVERY kid on this team. Heck he did it with guys who were his own age.

Who do you think tried to encourage Malhotra? Who do you think worked with Harvey when he first came over. How about guys like Stock. Who do you think rallied them to get involved in the community.

That has to be poorest example or comparison you could possibly use in this place.

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well i dont remember adam graves ever doing that any of that with the youth, or the ones we had when he was here atleast. so does that make him any less of a leader cause i think in his own ways he was just as good a leader as mess ..
Obviously your musn't remember because of you asked that question to anyone here they'd tell you Graves was that person. Comparing him to Jagr and Holik in the same sentence is almost an insuilt to what he was here. Sorry dude, but that is a VERY bad example. It doesn't even make sense. And whether people agree with me about Messier or not they'd probably at least agree with that statement.

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scarificed his body in front of the net for them garbage goals for the team ( when kowone else would poor guys back is shot )- leadership role, well to me atleast.. stuck up and fought for team mates another leader ship role.always a positive attitude, i mean the guy was near perfect in that sense though he didnt do what mnessier did, he led in his own way.
Yes but he LEAD. That is the point. He didn't complain to the media and then not show up. He TOOK the time to be with his roommates. Hell he helped guys move couches for pete's sake.

The next leader doesnt need to be a Mark Messier clone, he needs to be a leader. Going to the media and sulking in the lockeroom is not leading under any circumstance.

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07-22-2004, 09:05 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
As compared to missing the net by 5 feet, getting hurt every two weeks, etc.

If it was as easy as it sounds, then why exactly did Kovalev, Lindros and Nedved Have less goals despite being given the chance for more?

For pete's sake Messiers linemates last season were Mathew Friggin Barnaby and Chris Simon or Plenty of Jed Ortmeyer.

So tell me if Messier took shifts off, where were the core guys who were supposed to come and lead the team? Taking entire months off that's where.
and those 3 guys are no longer around, are they? Hopefully, neither will Mess...but if your looking for a statue to stand around while others do the dirty work, he's your man

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07-22-2004, 09:09 PM
  #33
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well to me its not an arguement its a discussion, that u felt b4 as u said know one can have an intelligent conversation, now that i am telling u that i disagree with on a majority of what u say this turns into an argument.. well for me no for u i guess so and could care less..
Lol what the hell are you talking about? I didn't say we were arguing i said "we can see what that argument is going". It's a figure of speech. How's this "We can see where that discussion is going..."


Is that better? LOL.

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but no ortmeyer and murray are not expected to put up #s like lundmark is so ofcourse its less pressure on them guys especially with the type of players they are , total opposite from lundmark....
So again, what the heck does that have to do with Messier? Lundmark being afraid he can't score has nothing to do with Messier. Now if Messier held a gun to his head and said "Score" than maybe, but Lundmark being nervous about scoring has nothing to do with Messier's presence.

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yeah they would be nervous with jagr and leetch.. but u dont seem to get my point, messiers presence is far more intimidating than any one elses. and thats no argument,.. the guy nees to retire and we should see out of our youth who will step up.... its time to move on messier and edge
So now Messier has some superpower that afflicts people's games from the bench or when he isn't dressed?

This is getting out of hand at this pont. First it was "playing" with Messier, now it's "Being in the same building as Messier". I mean so if Messier retires and Lundmark still does that, is it because Messier is on the same side of planet?

Maybe just maybe it's because Lundmark isn't cutting it and that is on nobody else but Lundmark.

The guy had to be switched positions in Hartford for a reason, so what that Messier?

Is Messier's presence that strong that it causes Lundmark to be knocked off the puck if someone breathes on him?

Come on now, you're an intelligent person. Even you gotta admit this is starting to sound like an X-Men movie?

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Old
07-22-2004, 09:11 PM
  #34
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Originally Posted by Graveytrain
and those 3 guys are no longer around, are they? Hopefully, neither will Mess...but if your looking for a statue to stand around while others do the dirty work, he's your man
But i'm not looking for him to put up points, i am looking for him to help the murray's and the ortmeyers and the lampman's adjust.

Next year is a wash anyway with lost games, why not at least just help those players adjust who WILL be here for a while.

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07-22-2004, 09:14 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by little a from da bx
no not really, they were sitting on the bench while sather was giving messier everyone else minutes no one had time to prove what they could do, messier should not have been logging the time he was . it should have been given to lundmark though he didnt prove much but we are trying to make him grow. or holik or anyone else basically.
i'm going to leave most of the arguing to edge, as i seem to agree with everything he is saying, and though i don't know much about the inner workings of the rangers front office, i'm inclined to trust edges knowledge over anyone arguing against him, based on his experience.

as for your comment little a, bear in mind for most of last season the rangers were still trying to make the playoffs. granted, that was the wrong strategy, but it was the one they were going for. thus, when trying to win games, you play the players who are producing, and thus mess played a lot. give me a player who DESERVED to play more last year, and who had the talent to help us win games. do you honestly think that jed ortmeyer can compete at the level he does for 18-20 a night, everynight? his energy comes from playing fewer minutes, because he doesn't have the talent to afford not playing hard every shift. bottom line, naive or not, the rangers were trying desperately to get into the postseason for the first time in six years, and they weren't going to get there with lundmark the floating two goal wonder.

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07-22-2004, 09:19 PM
  #36
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"Maybe just maybe it's because Lundmark isn't cutting it and that is on nobody else but Lundmark." - Edge

EXACTLY. for the all the talk that goes on about the lack of accountability on this team, we're awfully quick to make excuses for the youth. not that they have the greatest growth environment here, but come one, "lundmark isn't scoring because messier is intimidating him." sounds like something sather would say.

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07-22-2004, 09:21 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
But i'm not looking for him to put up points, i am looking for him to help the murray's and the ortmeyers and the lampman's adjust.

Next year is a wash anyway with lost games, why not at least just help those players adjust who WILL be here for a while.

Off ice, you are right... if he wants to coach, or take a job within the Orginization thats fine... on ice he sets a terrible example... whether he scoops up garbage goals or not... i think it sets a bad example for any player to stand around and coast as much as Mess does while your linemates have to pick up the slack...Some think these flaws are worth the potential payoff, but i don't...luckily he was skating mostly with 2 tough veterans who probably knew what to expect, but whats going to happen when he's skating with 2 kids for months on end?

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07-22-2004, 09:26 PM
  #38
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Why didn't we sign a younger FA center to replace Messier if we allegedly don't have a replacement in the system. Is it because none of them bring what Messier brings at age 43. Are we just being cheap and loyal (Sather)?

Con - Mess can easily be replaced via FA...or can he?

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07-22-2004, 09:30 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Edge
Or maybe you actually need someone who can take control and not just talking about it in the papers.......

"Um did I mention he's old". Wow that was thought out.

Problem is that this team doesn't have enough young talent to stack this roster, regardless of anyone's greatest fantasies and highest hopes.

You talk to any of those young guys who played with Messier last year and you can SEE what they got out of it. Heck just listen to Garth Murray sounding like a young Adam Graves when he talks about his experiences rooming with Messier.

Messier doesn't control this organization and any comment with that remark is from someone who has never even sniffed within a mile of what goes on within the offices.

Messier will have a bigger impact with those kids playing one season with them then they'd have in 4 just running around by themselves.

Whose gonna lead them, Holik? There probably wasn't a more disliked player in the lockerroom the past 2 years. When you run your mouth to the press and then can't even do anything to motivate your teammates {Score, drop the gloves, whatever} than all you're doing is flapping your gums.

There was a reason you heard guys like Murray and Lundmark mention Messier and not Holik. It had nothing to do with Messier controlling the lockeroom, it had everything to do with Messier doing the one thing no on these boards has given him an ounce of credit for doing. Checking in on these kids personally to see how they were adapting. That was something that Jagr and Holik DIDN'T do. But i forgot their in their early 30's so it must be Messier's fault. I'm sure he pinned Holik again a wall and threatened to beat him to death.
first off, no player is ever going to publicly knock messier or say anything bad about him...just too much respect for that to happen regardless of how bad things might be...

now if the kids really would benefit from having messier around like you say, then why not offer him the 3rd assistant job?? that way messier is still in the lockerroom, on the road with the team, teaching during practice BUT he won't be taking up valuable ice time...

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07-22-2004, 09:32 PM
  #40
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letting messier go and moving on is also symbolic of the direction of the team...

i guarantee that 99.9% of fans will lose total faith that the rebuild is for real if messier is back...that might be wrong, but that will be the reaction

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07-22-2004, 09:41 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graveytrain
Off ice, you are right... if he wants to coach, or take a job within the Orginization thats fine... on ice he sets a terrible example... whether he scoops up garbage goals or not... i think it sets a bad example for any player to stand around and coast as much as Mess does while your linemates have to pick up the slack...Some think these flaws are worth the potential payoff, but i don't...luckily he was skating mostly with 2 tough veterans who probably knew what to expect, but whats going to happen when he's skating with 2 kids for months on end?

Messier isnt on there to teach a kid a thing or two about how to stickhandle. Those days are over, Messier is there to guide them. To be there to answer questions when eight reporters ask the same question 10 times in a row. When a coach yells at them.

I think we forget as people who have either lived in NY for a while or spent our lives there that NY isn't exactly smalltown USA. There are many different and unique attributes that go to playing in NY that DONT show up on a stat sheet or anyone's bio.

If he's skating with two kids and they get scored on, who cares? The odds those kids were going to get scored on anyway. Does signing Perreault or Cullen make it any different than Messier?

Right away when a player goes into coaching it puts up a wall between him and the players. They are no longer on the ice anymore. Regardless of mistakes or old age, when you're on the ice with someone you form a bond with them. You're in the lockerroom getting cleaned up, you're staying in hotel rooms together. Nothing comes closer than a bond between players.

But see THESE are the little things i am talking about. Signing a guy like Perreault will make this team marginally better at best on the ice. But it's the small things. The small interactions. Something as simple as "Not blasting your teammates in the paper, no matter what they do" that will make the real lasting impact on these kids. Without all, we're gonna have the same old attitude in that lockerroom, just with new, younger faces.

Not for anything but i really don't want to see a guy like Garth Murray going to the papers EVERY time an offensive young forward like Lundmark or Prucha gets knocked off the puck or messes up. That is NOT the answer or leadership.

The difference between Messier and some other reasonable signing {and remember they have to actually want to be here a very overlooked fact this evening} is maybe a few points in the standings. Not enough to put us anywhere. BUT the little lessons to Murray and Ortmeyer and other character guys {imagine if Jessiman gets a callup} will last FAR longer than any forgotten point that a Cullen or a Perrault or some other veteran would score. That impact will last far longer than a Messier mistake in a guranteed losing season.

Five years from those young leaders will be talking about what they learned from Mark Messier, not the errant pass he through to the opposing team one game.

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07-22-2004, 09:45 PM
  #42
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first off, no player is ever going to publicly knock messier or say anything bad about him...just too much respect for that to happen regardless of how bad things might be...
Do you remember Vancouver by any chance?

Quote:
now if the kids really would benefit from having messier around like you say, then why not offer him the 3rd assistant job?? that way messier is still in the lockerroom, on the road with the team, teaching during practice BUT he won't be taking up valuable ice time...
Because like i said in another post, speaking from a playing standpoint and as someone who went pretty far in hockey before hurting himself, there is no substitute for being on the ice together.

The minute that players is a coach there is an automatic wall. Going out after games for a beer, to grab something to eat or other things is irreplaceable. Being on the ice {no matter how much Messier is a SHELL of his former self as a player} makes them brothers in arms to an extent. The minute you're in a suit and sitting safely on the bench, there is simply a divide.

That's why players who went from playing to being an assitant with the same team often had some difficulties. If messier were to do that, he'd be better off going to coach on a different team.

It's the small things that Messier can't do physically anymore but that he can advise to a kid that will be meaningful to this team.

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07-22-2004, 09:51 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR469
letting messier go and moving on is also symbolic of the direction of the team...

i guarantee that 99.9% of fans will lose total faith that the rebuild is for real if messier is back...that might be wrong, but that will be the reaction
Problem is the fans aren't on the ice and they aren't going to be the ones who play for your on the ice.

If we wanna go by that analogy then we are doomed anyway because when this team drops ten in a row they are going to be booing and screaming bloody murder.

I don't think people would mind seeing Messier teach the younger guys. I don't think they'd be seeing Messier take Murray under his wing like he did Graves.

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07-22-2004, 09:55 PM
  #44
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Edge:

i dont think that is a certainty anymore... If Mess is seen an aging player loafing around to play 16 soft minutes so he can pad his numbers, rather then 9 or 10 solid mins these guys will take notice...at least i hope they would... now im not talking in a physical sense, like taking the body, but mess barely competes for a loose puck anymore, and that is a problem

Rather have a guy who gets a little more involved even though they might make mistakes... These youngsters will respect hard work, not someone who helps carry a couch

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07-22-2004, 10:10 PM
  #45
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Hearing all this talk about how this team needs a younger leader................kinda really make ya hate that Mike York trade now huh? IMO if we still had him he would be perfect for captain.

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07-22-2004, 10:17 PM
  #46
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A couple of months ago, I was dead set against Messier coming back. But I look at the probable roster for next year and I'll tell you what scares me the most -- the lack of leadership. This team has no leaders, and for a rebuilding team, that is DEATH. What we have left are 3 veterans who are not leaders by any stretch of the imagination (Jagr, Holik, Kaspar), a couple of younger players with a few years of experience (Poti, Rachunek), and a large group of kids just trying to prove that they belong in the NHL (Lundmark, Ortmeyer, Murray, etc.). Who is going to take the lead? Unfortunately, it looks like the answer is no one, which would do more damage to the rebuilding process than anyone here can imagine.

This is the reason why I wanted the Rangers to make a big push for Conroy (who did want to play here). He's a true leader and he can play at a high level. But he signed in LA, and we need someone to show these kids what it will take to be successful in the NHL. Mess can do that job as well as anyone.

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07-22-2004, 10:26 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge
I don't think people would mind seeing Messier teach the younger guys. I don't think they'd be seeing Messier take Murray under his wing like he did Graves.
but do you really think that messier would center a 4th line next to murray?? its not a bad idea in theory, but how long would take before messier was on the top line next to jagr?? now that obviously wouldn't be mark's fault, but if he ends up between 2 vets then it doesn't really help much

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07-22-2004, 10:28 PM
  #48
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another factor to consider is the reported problems between messier and renney in vancouver...by all accounts there have been no problems in ny but would renney have complete control of the lockerroom with messier there?? if messier isn't 100% behind renney then he'd be doomed. so making sure that messier is 100% on board with the game plan is a big key (and something that we as fans can't answer)

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07-22-2004, 11:43 PM
  #49
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I was all for Messier returning when he did. Actually, I thought he never should have been afforded the opportunity to leave. That said, I do not want him back next season. It's about time this organization turn the frigging page already!

Although we can all wax poetic about how the kids will look up to Messier, the fact is that there are plenty of young teams in the NHL who have developed just fine without Messier - and we can do the same thing. Hossa, Alfredsson and Havlat have developed just fine without a Messier-type on their team. Tampa Bay just won the Cup with vets like Andreychuk and Taylor. San Jose did just fine with vets like Damphousse and Ricci. The Rangers need to bring in some character vets but they should not be looked at as go-to guys and Messier will always be a go-to guy in New York. If the Rangers get a guy like a Vinny Damphousse or a Scott Mellanby or a Dan McGillis or a James Patrick they will do just fine.

Our kids need to play in crunchtime positions. I know that Jagr will be out on the ice when the Rangers need a goal late in the game but guys like Balej, Lundmark and whoever else is on our roster also need to be out there. Guys like Murray, Ortmeyer, Dawes and Dom Moore, to name just four, were their previous teams' leaders and will be better served being relied upon some of the time rather than watching one of the all-time greats from the bench.

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07-22-2004, 11:54 PM
  #50
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Vancouver lurker checking in here...Messier's public comments about Tom Renney ("Mr Renney" or "Coach Renney", always) were very respectful, in tone and phrasing. If something private was up, then we sure didn't hear about it, and this is in a media market with well-established mouthpieces for players (Tony Gallagher of the Vancouver Province) and management (Gary Mason of the Vancouver Sun). By contrast, fans heard all about the dislike for Rick Ley, Pat Quinn's first head coaching successor.

Mark Messier is motivated to be a legendary hockey player, and although that is a personal objective, he understands, better than you or me I suspect, that hockey is a team game and that he needs to have an appropriate role. I obviously haven't seen as much MM in the last few years, but in his Vancouver era he struck me as a crafty playmaker with pretty good skills, albeit fragile.

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