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2011-2012 Washington Capitals: Salary/Cap Hit/Contract Thread

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Old
06-23-2011, 07:22 PM
  #1
sk84fun_dc
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2011-2012 Washington Capitals: Salary/Cap Hit/Contract Thread

(Brought to you by Langway & Sk84fun_dc)

Contents:

- Players Under Contract - Players on NHL Roster - Part I

- Players Under Contract - Players not on NHL Roster - Part II

- Players Under Contract - Organizational Contract List - Part III and AHL Contracts

- Free Agents: UFAs & RFAs

- Unsigned Prospects & Draft Pick Information

- Key Dates

- FAQ and Sources

Note: This is a resource thread, not a speculation thread...so roster discussions would be better served for the off-season discussion threads.


Last edited by sk84fun_dc: 06-24-2011 at 09:08 AM.
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06-23-2011, 07:27 PM
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The following is an ongoing, fairly conservative roster estimate based on players under contract for the 2011-12 season. Spots currently set to be up for grabs or unfilled have been left blank for the time being except in the case of depth players or quasi-regulars requiring waivers or on a one-way contract.

The Caps currently have 47 players under NHL contract for the '11-12 season with G Brandon Anderson & LW Stanislav Galiev pretty much assured to slide another season once returned to their junior clubs.

Left Wing  Center  Right Wing 
Alexander Ovechkin
$9,538,462
 Nicklas Backstrom
$6,700,000
 Mike Knuble
$2,000,000
Troy Brouwer
$2,350,000
 Marcus Johansson
$900,000
 Alexander Semin
$6,700,000
Jason Chimera
$1,875,000
 Brooks Laich
$4,500,000
 Joel Ward
$3,000,000
Matt Hendricks
$825,000
 Jeff Halpern
$825,000
 Jay Beagle
$512,500
Mathieu Perreault
$525,000
 Joel Rechlicz
$525,000
   

Left D  Right D 
Roman Hamrlik
$3,500,000
 Mike Green
$5,250,000
Karl Alzner
$1,285,000
 John Carlson
$845,833
Dmitry Orlov
$900,000
 Dennis Wideman
$3,937,500
Jeff Schultz
$2,750,000
 John Erskine
$1,500,000
Tom Poti
$2,875,000
   

Goaltender
 
Tomas Vokoun
$1,500,000
Michal Neuvirth
$1,150,000
$2,650,000 / 2 goaltenders
-----------------
Cap total: $65,190,128* / 23 players
-----------------
2011-2012 salary cap: $64.3M (w/ no bonus cushion)
-----------------
Cap space: -$540,182 (note: over cap before factoring in LTIR situations, etc.)

* Cap total includes Capgeek's reported $350,000 bonus overage from last season and the $233,333 Sloan buyout


Last edited by Langway: 02-02-2012 at 04:41 PM.
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06-23-2011, 07:29 PM
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Other players under contract for '11-12 season (in alpha order, figures once again are cap hits):

PlayerPos.'11-12'12-13'13-14Notes
Brandon Anderson#+*G
540,556
540,556
540,556
contract will slide for '11-12 when sent back to juniors
Keith AucoinC
512,500
UFA
 two-way; exempt from re-entry waivers
Chris BourqueLW
525,000
RFA*
  
Mike CarmanC
850,000
RFA
  
Sean CollinsD
525,000
UFA
  
Cody Eakin#+C
637,778
637,778
637,778
 
Brett Flemming#+D
558,333
558,333
558,333
 
Stanislav Galiev#+*LW
618,333
618,333
618,333
contract will slide for '11-12 when sent back to juniors
Kyle GreentreeLW
512,500
UFA
 two-way; exempt from re-entry waivers
Philipp Grubauer#+G
599,444
599,444
599,444
 
Christian HansonC
525,000
RFA*
  
Braden Holtby+G
637,778
637,778
RFA*
 
DJ KingLW
637,500
UFA
  
Tomas Kundratek+D
816,666
816,666
RFA
 
Kevin MarshallD
845,333
RFA
  
Jacob MicflikierLW
525,000
UFA
  
Zach MiskovicD
525,000
UFA
  
Garrett Mitchell+RW
575,000
575,000
575,000
 
Patrick McNeillD
525,000
525,000
RFA*
 
Danick Paquette+F
685,000
685,000
RFA
 
Ryan PotulnyC
525,000
525,000
UFA
 
Dany SabourinG
525,000
UFA
  
Mattias Sjogren+C
900,000
900,000
RFA*
 
Dustin Stevenson+D
570,000
570,000
RFA
 

# Eakin, Flemming, Grubauer & Anderson - contracts slid for '10-11 so 3 years still remain on each contract.
+ Waiver-exempt to start the '11-12 season.
* '92 (or later)-born player drafted/signed out of the CHL; ineligible to play in the AHL until team's season (either at the NHL or CHL level) is over.


Last edited by Langway: 02-02-2012 at 04:43 PM.
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06-23-2011, 07:38 PM
  #4
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Organizational list of up to 50 players under contract for '11-12 season : (alphabetical by position)

Currently 49 players under contract; subtract Anderson & Galiev and down to 47.

Forwards (27)Defensemen (16)Goalies (6)
Aucoin, KeithAlzner, KarlAnderson, Brandon
Backstrom, NicklasCarlson, JohnGrubauer, Philipp
Beagle, JayCollins, SeanHoltby, Braden
Bourque, ChrisErskine, JohnNeuvirth, Michael
Brouwer, TroyFlemming, BrettSabourin, Dany
Carman, MikeGreen, MikeVokoun, Tomas
Chimera, JasonHamrlik, Roman 
Eakin, CodyKundratek, Tomas 
Galiev, StanislavMarshall, Kevin 
Greentree, KyleMcNeill, Patrick 
Halpern, JeffMiskovic, Zach 
Hanson, ChristianOrlov, Dmitry 
Hendricks, MattPoti, Tom 
Johansson, MarcusSchultz, Jeff 
King, DJStevenson, Dustin 
Knuble, MikeWideman, Dennis 
Laich, Brooks  
Micflikier, Jacob  
Mitchell, Garrett  
Ovechkin, Alex  
Paquette, Danick  
Perreault, Mathieu  
Potulny, Ryan  
Rechlicz, Joel  
Semin, Alex  
Sjogren, Mattias  
Ward, Joel  


AHL Contracts with Hershey for the 2011-2012 Season:

- Daren Machesney, G

- Paul Baier, D (as of January 2012, released to play in Italy)
- Julien Brouillette, D
- Phil Oreskovic, D
- Patrick Wellar, D

- Andrew Carroll, C
- David de Kastrozza, W
- Boyd Kane, LW
- Maxime Lacroix, W
- Graham Mink, RW
- Matt Pope (signed a Hershey contract during the season)
- Joel Rechlicz, W (as of 1/30/12 on an NHL two-way contract)

SC/ECHL contracts for the 2011-12 season

New head coach: Carbery
D: Keller, Kroll, Tabisz, Tarkir
F: Campbell, Dolan, McEwan, O'Brien, Pollastrone, Pope, Scherer; Trukhno (? as he is playing in Austria); Langeraap (released)


Last edited by Langway: 02-02-2012 at 04:47 PM.
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06-23-2011, 07:46 PM
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12 UFAs:

PlayerPos.'10-11 SalaryStatus / Notes
Jason ArnottC
$4,500,000
Signed with St. Louis, 1 year contract on July 6
Matt BradleyRW
$1,000,000
Signed with Florida, 2 year contract on July 2
Sean CollinsD
$675,000
Re-signed with the Capitals announced on July 1
Brian FaheyD
$500,000
Signed 1 year AHL contract with Rockford (CHI affiliate)
Andrew GordonRW
$500,000
Group VI UFA; Signed with Anaheim, 2 year contract on July 2
Boyd GordonC/RW
$800,000
Signed with Phoenix, 2 year contract on July 1
Scott HannanD
$4,500,000
Signed 1 year contract with Calgary
Andrew JoudreyC
$500,000
Group VI UFA; Signed 2 year contract on July 1 with Columbus (2-way)
Brooks LaichLW
$2,400,000
Re-signed to 6 year contract on June 28, 4.5M cap hit
Steve PinizzottoRW
$550,000
Signed a 1 year contract with Vancouver on July 3 (2-way)
Marco SturmW
$3,500,000
Signed a 1 year contract with Vancouver on July 1
Brian WillsieC/RW
$525,000
Signed a 1 year contract with Montreal on July 7 (2-way)

plus Nylander & Sloan, UFA

4 RFAs:

PlayerPos.'10-11 SalaryQualifying Offer**Status / Notes
Karl AlznerD
$787,500
$826,875
5% QO; reported on 6/23 that QO extended; 6/27 Caps announce QO extended; signed 2 year contract on 7/15
Francois BouchardW
$765,000
$803,250
5% QO, 6/27 Caps announce QO extended; signed 1 year contract on 7/15
Troy BrouwerW
$1,050,000
$1,050,000
arb. eligible; 6/27 Caps announce QO extended; signed 2 year contract announced on 7/6
Mathieu PerreaultC
$650,000
$715,000
10% QO; 6/27 Caps announce QO extended; signed 1 year contract on 7/13

The 3 other RFAs as of the QO deadline, Trevor Bruess, Joe Finley & Josh Godfrey, not tendered their QO, become UFAs. link

** Unless there are some signing bonuses not accounted for in determining the base in the last year of the ELC contract for calculating the QO and if that was the case, the QO would be lower; have figures in some but not all cases


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06-23-2011, 07:52 PM
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Unsigned Draft Pick/ Prospects with links to hockeydb profiles

(Ages as of June 2011)

PlayerPos.AgeLeagueNotes
Boyd, TravisC17NCAAheaded to UMinn next season, rights until August 15, 2015; 11 draft
Burke, GregW21NCAArights until August 15, 2013; 08 draft
Carrier, SamuelD19QMJHLrights until June 1, 2012; 10 draft
Haar, GarrettD18NCAAheaded to Western Michigan; rights until August 15, 2015; 11 draft
Herbert, CalebC19NCAAheaded to UMD; rights until August 15, 2015; 10 draft (more info: link)
Koudys, PatrickD18NCAArights until August 15, 2014; already played freshman season at RPI; 11 draft
Kuznetsov, EvgenyC/RW19KHLrights held indefinitely due to lack of transfer agreement; 10 draft
Larson, NickRW22NCAArights until August 15, 2012; 07 draft (clarification on rights exp. pending); has been at UMinn for 4 years, but only played 3 seasons of college hockey; sat out freshman year with injury (redshirt year)
Soberg, SteffenG18WHLplaying for Swift Current/WHL, rights until June 1, 2013; 11 draft
Stefishen, TaylorLW20CISplayed overage season in WHL in '10-11; rights until June 1, 2012; acquired via trade from Nashville for a conditional 7th round pick in 2013; 7/18 announced Stefishen expects to play for Univ. of Calgary Dinos
Wey, PatrickD20NCAArights held until August 15, 2013; 09 draft

Other Draft Notes
- 2010 draft picks under contract: Galiev, Grubauer
- Glass, unclear but likely Caps released his rights in last year; will play for Carleton next season
- Yunkov, Nepriayev and other Russian's rights still owned due to a lack of a transfer agreement


Capitals 2011 and 2012 Draft Picks:


2011

1st round: #26, Traded to Chicago in Brouwer deal on draft day
2nd round: #57, Traded to Carolina in Corvo deal; now Calgary's pick
3rd round: #87, Traded to Florida in Wideman deal
4th round: #117 Steffen Soberg, G, Norway
5th round: #147 Patrick Koudys, D, RPI/NCAA
6th round: #177 Travis Boyd, C, US NTDP
7th round: #207 Garrett Haar, D, Fargo/USHL


2012
Caps own all their own picks except: 2nd Traded to NJD in Arnott deal
Added Colorado's first and either Boston's second in 2012 or Colorado's second in 2013 (Washington's option) in Varlamov deal
Added Winnipeg's 4th round pick in 2012 in Eric Fehr trade on July 8 (Paquette also traded to Washington in the trade)

2013
7th: Conditional trade to Nashville if Caps sign Taylor Stefishen by June 1, 2012 deadline, 2013 7th rounder traded to Nashville


Last edited by Langway: 08-24-2011 at 11:05 AM.
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06-23-2011, 08:01 PM
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Summer/Fall 2011

June 24-25: '11 Entry Draft/St. Paul, Minnesota

June 27: Deadline to qualify RFAs, 5pm eastern time

June 29: RFAs may contact other teams regarding potential interest

July 1: Noon Eastern time. Beginning of free agency (UFAs eligible to sign, RFAs now eligible to sign offer sheets or accept QOs)

July 5: Deadline for player-elected arbitration

July 6: Deadline for team-elected arbitration

July 11-16: Development camp/Kettler Capitals Iceplex begins (from reports it sounds like players report July 10)

July 15: Qualifying offers expire

July 20 - August 4: Arbitration hearings/Toronto (unlikely for any Caps RFAs)

August 15: Deadline to sign select draft picks that took the NCAA path

September 10: Rookie camp opens; game vs. PHI rookies at Wells Fargo Center in Philadelphia on 9/15

September 16: Training camp opens; Caps play 7 preseason games, September 20-October 2

October 8: Capitals regular season opener


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06-23-2011, 08:07 PM
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1) Off-Season Salary Cap
2) RFA Qualifying Offers & Arbitration
3) RFA Offer Sheet Compensation Information
4) Waivers
5) NTCs and NMCs
6) Contract Extensions
7) Sources


1) Off-Season Salary Cap. What are the rules for cap compliance during the off-season? Teams are allowed to exceed the coming season's salary cap by up to 10% in the off-season (defined as from July 1 until the last day of training camp). Players included in the off-season cap tally include all players signed to one-way contracts; a proportional salary amount from players on two-way contracts based on their days on the NHL roster the previous season; all active QOs & offer sheets; and all buyout amounts and deferred bonuses for the upcoming season. So, for the summer of 2011, contracts that count towards the off-season number include all one way contracts plus the pro-rated contracts for all the Hershey call-ups still under contract: Aucoin, McNeill, Holtby, & Sabourin.

2) QOs & Arbitration. How are qualifying offers calculated and how does arbitration work? Qualifying offer amounts depend on the salary in the expiring contract year as follows:

Salary in final year Qualifying offer
< $660k 110% of previous salary
$660k - $1M 105% of previous salary
> $1M 100% of previous salary

Arbitration rights (eligibility for player-elected arbitration) are determined based on the number of pro years and the players age upon signing their first contract.

Age upon signing first SPC Required years to gain arb. rights
18-20 4 years
21 3 years
22-23 2 years
24+ 1 year

It's important to note that the player's age when signing isn't their age when they actually sign the contract but their age on September 15th of the year in which the contract is signed. Pro in this instance means either the NHL or AHL, except for 18-19yo's in the AHL. Based on the CBA's wording, 18-19yo's must be in the NHL (and play 11 or more games) to be considered pro. For more on arbitration consult Article 12 of the CBA.

Based on a calculation, the arbitration hearing award walk-away point for summer 2011 should be approx. $1,633,000 ($1,632,974.)

3) RFA Offer Sheet Compensation Information for Summer 2011:

An offer with a $1,034,249 annual cap hit or less: No compensation

More than $1,034,249 -- $1,567,043: Third-round pick

More than $1,567,043 -- $3,134,088: Second-round pick

More than $3,134,088 -- $4,701,131: First and third-round pick

More than $4,701,131 -- $6,268,175: First, second and third-round pick

More than $6,268,175 -- $7,835,219: Two first-round picks, a second and third

More than $7,835,219 and higher: Four first-round picks


4) Waiver News? Is there anyone that will be subject to waivers for the first time to start the 2011-12 season? Of note, Mathieu Perreault, Jay Beagle, Patrick McNeill will require waivers for the first time entering the '11-12 season.

The thresholds for skaters are as follows:


AgeYears From SigningNHL Games Played
185160
194160
203160
21380
22370
23360
24260
25+1-

For Goalies
18680
19580
20480
21460
22460
23360
24260
25+1-

5) No Trade Clauses/No Movement Clauses

Ovechkin: Limited NTC starting in summer 2014; as described by GM during 2010 Caps Convention panel - Limited NTC, can designate 10 teams he will not accept a trade to and modify list each year before the season starts

Backstrom: Limited NTC starting in summer 2016 (per CapGeek) ""Modified NTC (no restrictions until July 1, 2016; for 2016-17 and beyond, can designate seven teams he will not accept a trade to no-trade list and modify that list each September beginning in 2017)"; confirmed by GM during 2010 Caps Convention panel

Laich: Limited NTC starting in summer 2011 for first four seasons of contract ending sometime after 2014-2015 season; supplies team with five teams he can't be traded to at the beginning of each of the four seasons

6) Contract Extensions - Negotiating new contracts with players in organization

Since Alexander Semin signed a one year contract extension during the 2010-11 season for the 2011-12 season, no official contract extension can be entered into before January 1, 2012.

Players on the last year of a multi-year deal and players in last year of an ELC can enter into contract extensions starting July 1, 2011.

$525,000 is the minimum salary for the 2011-12 season.

7) Sources:

- Langway and Sk84fun_dc's number crunching and CBA jujitsu. (We're human, though, so take this as just a good faith effort at getting into the nitty gritty of contracts in the cap world. We'll keep adding and correcting information as it becomes available.)

Some additional sources/references:

- CapGeek for cap & buyout calculators

- A direct link (.pdf) to the NHL's CBA

- The NHLPA listing of Washington players on the NHL roster; may need to use drop down to select Washington. Note that the figures listed on the NHLPA site are salary figures.

- Link to last season's thread


Last edited by Langway: 07-10-2011 at 07:05 PM.
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06-29-2011, 11:40 AM
  #9
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So with the lastest rumors about Washington buying out Tyler Sloan, I have to ask the following question: why would a team ever buy out a player who doesn't have a NMC in his contract? For instance, why would the Caps buy out Sloan and take a cap hit of $0.233 mil for the next two seasons instead of just trying to bury him in the minors or loaning him out to another club (ala Michael Nylander)? Is it simply that the club doesn't want to pay him the $0.7 mil and they don't mind taking the cap hit if they can save themselves ~$0.45 mil?

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06-29-2011, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolCaps84 View Post
So with the lastest rumors about Washington buying out Tyler Sloan, I have to ask the following question: why would a team ever buy out a player who doesn't have a NMC in his contract? For instance, why would the Caps buy out Sloan and take a cap hit of $0.233 mil for the next two seasons instead of just trying to bury him in the minors or loaning him out to another club (ala Michael Nylander)? Is it simply that the club doesn't want to pay him the $0.7 mil and they don't mind taking the cap hit if they can save themselves ~$0.45 mil?
I'm surprised because of the limited savings, the extra year of a cap hit and the cap hit this season with no performance bonus cushion allowed.

They don't save that much, they save 1/3 in actual dollars since it's a 2/3 buyout spread out over twice the length and his 2 year contract was same salary each season. .233 cap hit year 1, .233 cap hit year 2 and .233 savings.

It is possible, although it doesn't seem to be an issue, that they want to clear a contract from the contract count. It is possible, the owner isn't a fan of continuing to pay one-way contract players to play in the AHL, but as noted, this is not a lot of savings. It's possible they agreed to let the player move on to try to find a place to play and also don't want to deal with too many vets in the AHL? Don't know.


In unrelated news, I did some simple math related to the arbitration walk-away point for this summer. Not an issue as it relates to the Caps unless something goes wrong with the Brouwer negotiations, but the walk-away point should be approx. $1,633,000 ($1,632,974 was the number I got.)

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06-29-2011, 11:51 AM
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Couldn't it also be a matter of wanting to part with the player rather than risk him having a bad attitude in Hershey? Not saying Sloan would be that way, but wasn't that considered part of the reason they bought out Clymer at the time? Of course I guess you'll never get confirmation of that sort of thing.

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06-29-2011, 12:05 PM
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Always possible.

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06-29-2011, 12:07 PM
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Always possible although I don't recall that about Clymer..I do recall something about Clymer and Fata but I thought Fata was the issue.

Let's try to keep this thread about the salary cap/contracts stuff...maybe switch the speculation part of this over to wherever else the Sloan buyout is being discussed.

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06-29-2011, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sk84fun_dc View Post
In unrelated news, I did some simple math related to the arbitration walk-away point for this summer. Not an issue as it relates to the Caps unless something goes wrong with the Brouwer negotiations, but the walk-away point should be approx. $1,633,000 ($1,632,974 was the number I got.)
Pardon my ignorance, but could you explain the arbitration walk-away point? Not sure what that means exactly, or how it is calculated...

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06-29-2011, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolCaps84 View Post
Pardon my ignorance, but could you explain the arbitration walk-away point? Not sure what that means exactly, or how it is calculated...
If player files for arbitration and there is actually a hearing and a decision, if the award is for less than the walk-away point, the team is bound by the award. If the amount is equal to or over that figure, the team has a certain amount of time to decide whether they want to enter that contract with the player or walk-away and let the player become UFA. see 12.10 for all the details.

Jurcina's case with the Capitals a few years ago is an example of an agent submitting a number just below the walk-away point as part of the strategy, while last year the Atlanta/Clarke MacArthur case the agent/MacArthur requested an amount above the walk-away # and Atlanta decided not to present a case in opposition (based on reports) and the number came in and Atlanta walked away.


In team filed arb., e.g., the Parise/NJ and Weber/NSH cases, the team does not have the right to walk-away from the award.

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06-29-2011, 04:12 PM
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Thanks- got it!

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07-05-2011, 09:20 AM
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5pm today (eastern) is deadline for player-elected salary arbitration; Troy Brouwer is only RFA eligible of four remaining Caps RFAs.

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07-05-2011, 11:25 AM
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Damn...really nice work Sk8....

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07-05-2011, 12:29 PM
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yep kudos skate, thx for keeping it all together

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07-05-2011, 12:49 PM
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Thanks, but to clarify it's Langway's work, too.

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07-06-2011, 10:58 AM
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So here's a salary cap related question for this thread:

In light of how the Caps escaped salary cap hell with Michael Nylander by loaning him to Jokerit in '09-10, would it be possible to loan Alex Semin out for three months to a euro club (say from October through December) and save ~$3M in cap space? That way they could bring him back in January and have him for the stretch run / playoffs and still fit Alzner in under the UL. Is there any reason (other than Semin being ok with it, and finding a willing euro club partner) that this couldn't work from a CBA perspective?

Just curious...

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07-06-2011, 11:12 AM
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Any variation on that proposal screams of salary cap circumvention.

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07-06-2011, 01:14 PM
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OldSchoolCaps84
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Originally Posted by sk84fun_dc View Post
Any variation on that proposal screams of salary cap circumvention.
I would tend to agree with you, but if that's the case, how were we able to do what we did with Nylander? The only difference is that we wanted him off the books for the whole season instead of part of the season...

As for circumvention in general, I really don't understand what qualifies as "circumvention". Last year Ilya Kovalchuk signed a 17-year deal worth $102M that carried a $6M yearly cap hit. The league rejected that deal because Kovalchuk would only be making $3.5M over the last 6 years of the contract, which is pretty clear circumvention. If you cut the last 7 years (age 37-44) off of that deal, his annual cap hit would be $9.5M. That is a $3.5M yearly cap savings by adding 7 garbage years to the end of the contract.

The league then okayed a 15-year, $100M deal in which there is a three year period where Kovalchuk (between ages 37-40) makes only $1M per year. The new deal raised his yearly cap hit from $6M to $6.67M. If you remove the last 5 years (age 37-42) from Kovalchuk's current deal, his annual cap hit would be $9M. So the last 5 years of his CURRENT contract still drive the yearly cap number down by over $2.75M! Somehow the league was ok with this contract.

This offseason the league has approved a contract in which Ilya Bryzgalov makes $51M over 9 years. His yearly cap hit is $5.67M, but if you take away the last two years of the deal over which he makes only $3.5M, his yearly cap hit would be ~$6.79M. The last two years of his deal drive the yearly cap hit down by over $1.1M!

The list could go on, but I think the point is clear. It irks me when people bring up Ovechkin's contract in the same conversation with these bogus long-term deals. Over the course of OV's contract, he never makes less than $9M per season. His cap hit is just over $9.5M each year. It's a long-term contract, but not a "circumventing" contract. I don't understand how/why other teams are getting away with this kind of thing, yet GMGM continues to play by these murky rules. My hope is that this issue is addressed concretely in the next CBA and that any teams with contracts in violation of the new CBA will have to re-work those contracts. My guess though is that contracts like Kovalchuk/Bryzgalov's will simply be grandfathered in.

Sorry to vent, but I guess I'm frustrated with this situation...


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07-06-2011, 01:35 PM
  #24
Langway
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Is there any reason (other than Semin being ok with it, and finding a willing euro club partner) that this couldn't work from a CBA perspective?
Other than that he would be subject to waivers?

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07-06-2011, 01:49 PM
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Other than that he would be subject to waivers?
Ah...that would definitely be a good reason not to do it...thanks for the info.

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